**WhItE-aNgEl**

Hey everyone, I've been looking everywhere for a DIY to lower or raise coilovers while on the car. I'm dropped on f&f type 1 and i was wondering if anyone has a step by step instruction for our cars. Thanks for any help

jwr0ng626

iTrader: (1)

teckademics gtr

hmmm im pretty sure you never touch the spring pre load....i thought you loosen the bottom collar and spin only one top collar to move the whole shock body up or down...

teckademics gtr

this guy has the right idea....

jwr0ng626

iTrader: (1)

Yup, I don't touch the spring preload... just loosen the bottom locking collar and use the spanner wrenches (or twist shock body by hand) to adjust height

**WhItE-aNgEl**

But there's a bolt going through the bottom that won't let it spin if I unlock the bottom collar.

**WhItE-aNgEl**

I just saw that second video. Does that apply too f&f type 1? Because if it does that's easy. I thought I would have to remove the bottom screw that holds the shock in place than unlock the collar and spin it to lower it. But that second video he's not adjusting the preload right ? He's just lowering the car by using the top collar correct ?

SpiderX1016

It'd be faster if you removed the bolt but if your making small adjustments then you can leave the bolt in.

Dino81

White angel, u are not a noob. This, like many things you've posted, has been covered. Please search. /thread.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-tires-wheels-suspension-97/proper-way-adjust-height-f-f-coilover-823528/

teckademics gtr

yeah that way in the first video is pretty wrong, but i think if you wana go lower you and compress the spring up more that way you can spin the bottom collar up a bit more...but i think the shocks would be a little stiffer then right?

ebelp

Well removing the bottom bolt takes some time, so it's not faster. The method in the 2nd vid above is the correct way and applies to F&F coilovers. After you do it once, you'll see how easy and quick it is. Just make sure all the threads are clean and the lubricant really helps too...I use a can of white lithium grease to lubricate mine.

**WhItE-aNgEl**

Thank you all for the replys. That's exactly what I needed to know^^^ I didn't wanna remove that bolt since I saw how difficult it was to remove when taking off my last setup. Does the same thing apply for the rears or is it different for the rear coilovers?

teckademics gtr

so for the new xlr8 coils use the same method to lower?

ebelp

^ Yes.

94eg!

Don't worry about this. If you move the shock down 1" in the lower perch, and raise the spring up 1" with the upper perch, you only alter your suspension stroke. Ride height remains the same. What this means is the wheel can bump further up into the wheel well, but it can't droop as far down if the car is off the ground.

There are more advanced tuning options that can be used on the track. Part of the reason these so-called full-coilovers are a waste on street cars when compared to good shocks & adjustable height sleeves. Only problem is, options for quality parts are very limited on this car (no Ground Controls )

teckademics gtr

ok thanks

07tlsWDP

Quick question.

If I want to raise my car would I be spinning it with the wrench counter clock-wise with the bottom locking collar lose? So basically all the steps the same as the second video but spinning it the other way?

Inaccurate

Adjusting the Droop appears to be an advanced topic. Most people incorrectly use the term "preload" when meaning "droop". When I googled to learn more about droop, I discovered that very, very few people really understand the topic, and even fewer have ACTUALLY experimented firsthand with Zero Droop.

I am currently experimenting with Limited Droop. I have just a 1/2" of droop versus the typical 2-1/2" droop of most coilovers. In the pics above, you can see how little the suspension moves down when jacked-up versus when the car is on the ground.

The "Droop Limiting" is just basically raising the spring perch. It does not raise the spring rate, which is impossible anyways as discussed in the links below.

There are two major benefits to limiting the droop (aka, "raising the spring perch"). One advantage is that you are increasing the available travel before hitting the bump stop. In my case, I would coil bind before I hit the bump stop but I am willing to live with this slim chance of doing that.. The other advantage to limiting the droop is that it causes the CG to more favorably assist traction on the outer wheel. This is better explained in the links below.

My reason for having Limited Droop is for four reasons. I hate when my car is thrown upward when encounters quick up slopes on the freeway. I want the car to just follow the surface elevations without artificially jumping up in the air and then slamming down again. This makes me think that I am driving a family station wagon instead of a sports car.

The second reason that I want to have Limited Droop is to get infinite sway bar action. As discussed in the links below, this is a common reason for having limited droop. In some cases, people have actually removed their sway bars because the bars are no longer needed.

And the third reason is that I want the car to have extremely little pitch when quickly transitioning from wot to hard brakes.

And the fourth reason is because I can't leave "well enough" alone.

I have setup my BC coilovers to have just 1/2" (yes, just one half inch) of droop. Please see pics above. When I get the chance, I would like to reduce the droop even less, maybe down to a 1/4" of droop. This is my first set of coilovers... so I am no coilover expert. But, I am TOTALLY happy with the limited droop and glad that I pursued the endeavor.

From my researching (googling), I found the topic of Droop Limiting is a fairly advanced topic. Meaning that it is not discussed much due to a lack of knowledge, experience, and experimenting. But, I love experimenting myself (I shoot myself in the foot often too). I have included links to the most insightful links that I found on the internet. As you are reading the links, please be warned that there is a lot of mis-information regarding this topic. I always highly favor any information from people that "have been there and done that". And with this topic, this very much applies. So many people talk in terms of theory and their expectations. However, when reading info from those that *have done it*, they say that near zero droop is awesome. Zero droop forces the outside wheels to dig in harder (read about it when CG is discussed by "those that know" in the links below).

I am still discovering my boundaries with my new suspension. So far, it appears to be neutrally balanced with a smooth slide (drift). No sudden breakaways. This is exactly how my car was with the oem suspension and I am amazed that the car still has the same personality when pushed to the limit. I was sad thinking that I had to give this up in order to move to coilovers. But, it looks like I am being blessed to have my cake and eat it too. I have the coilovers (set to nearly full stiffness in front) and I still have the mild mannered drift when I push the car to the limit. I am very pleased with this.

Back to the Limited Droop. So many people expect for the car to break free suddenly when the inner dampers hit the upper limit. I have not found this to be the case yet. As I said above, the car is very mild mannered when drifted. To date, I have not had to catch the car due to a sudden break away.

I realize that I am running the chance of blowing (breaking) the dampers by forcing it to have limited droop. But, like I said, I love experimenting. If they blow, I will just buy another set.

I am just sharing these things with the reader. I do not recommend anyone to try limited droop because I realize that it is very much "off of the wall" stuff. I am being very careful as I experiment because I know that I may sudden find the point where the suspension gets squirrelly from hitting the limited upward travel at an inopportune time.


http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/...pension-droop/

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspe...ht-amount.html

http://www.drccentral.com/forums/ind...howtopic=13204

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=257942

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=207354

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1926619

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/...ed-suspension/

http://67.15.56.2/~locost84/forums/v...=12128&start=0

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...arison&page=55

http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/c2/index.htm

http://www.rctek.com/technical/handl...ion_droop.html

http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/for...02/scope/posts[/QUOTE]

94eg!

How are you getting so little droop. Do you have to pre-load the springs a whole bunch? Are you barely installing the top-hat nut and then tightening it down after raising the spring perches as far as possible? Are there any troubles with banging the UCAs on the shock tower with so much compression-travel like other Hondas? BTW: Love that you have RC-Car resources in your arsenal... Droop has become a very powerful tuning aid in the RC community.

For the rest of you: Here is an illustration of droop limiting in action while cornering. It forces the car to lower in a turn rather than roll, and increases camber on both inside and outside tires.

Cornering WITHOUT droop limiting (yes very exaggerated):


Cornering WITH zero droop (droop limiting):

Inaccurate

<<How are you getting so little droop?>>

To limit droop, the perch is raised.

The BC Racing coilovers have a fully threaded body. That is, the threads for the perch extend all the way up to the boot.

I applied grease to the threads and under the spring to assist in turning the adjuster nut. With the dampers installed on the car and the car on jacksands, I used the supplied nut wrench to crank the perch-nut upward. The perch nuts are nearly up to the boot (within maybe 1/8" before running out of threads).

However, I will be purchasing a spring compressor before missing with it again. It was way too hard cranking on the perch nut against the spring force. In the future, I will compress the spring first to allow me to feely turn the perch nut without the spring load against the nut.


<<Do you have to pre-load the springs a whole bunch?>>

I had to compress (not preload) the spring obviously to support the weight of the car without having the spring to sag. This is where the increase in suspension travel comes from...... being one of the prime advantages of having limited droop.

The spring is compressed approx 2". The BC coilovers is meant to have 2-1/2" of droop. So by me raising the perch the 2", this leaves me with just the 1/2" of droop.

As a reminder, this is not preload. Preload means to keep raising the perch higher and higher, past the point of zero droop. That is, if you raise the perch to reduce droop, but you raise the perch more to the point of no droop, this is called "Zero Droop". Meaning that the car might sag 1/64" for the sake of illustration. This is Zero Droop.

But now if you raised the perch more, you would be adding preload. At this point the car can not go higher because with the Zero Droop there is no more upward travel. So by raising the perch higher beyond Zero Droop, there will be Preload in the car. That is, when the car is on the ground, the weight of the car is not enough to compress the spring. It will take the weight of the car plus a lot more to just begin to cause downward suspension travel.


<<Are there any troubles with banging the UCAs on the shock tower with so much compression-travel like other Hondas?>>

I am unfamiliar with this issue in other Hondas. But, I would imagine that something would hit something if I did not take precautions. For me, I am not lowered. I am a oem height (14-1/2" from spindle to wheelwell). Plus, I have very stiff suspension, not this plush oem suspension like others that use coilovers. Others, they want to lower their "rides" by 1-1/2" to 2" and PLUS have a soft plush suspension. Not me. I am on the opposite extremes with stiff ass suspension with an oem ride height.

The two biggest concerns with limited droop are -

1) having the car bang against the upper bumper (internal inside damper) and disturb the handling.
2) having the upper bump become destroyed because the upper bump was not designed to be banged on constantly.



<<Love that you have RC-Car resources in your arsenal... Droop has become a very powerful tuning aid in the RC community.>>

While I am active in the RC community, it is with planes only. However, I did like how someone mentioned in one of those links how much a RC car will mimic a real car. That is, what applies to a RC car does apply to real cars too.

<<Here is an illustration of droop limiting in action while cornering.>>

Thanking for posting this diagram. For those that have tried zero droop in real life, this is the biggest benefit that they mention.

94eg!

Okay that's all good stuff. Thanks for the specifics.

Have you ever though about using limiting straps to adjust droop? This would avoid any internal abuse of the damper, and allow you to tune compression travel as well. I've really only seen these on drag-cars, but I figure it's kinda a universal/custom type install. May be worth investigating.



As far as banging the UCAs, that is typically the limiting factor for Honda suspension compression should the bump-stop & damper be removed from the equation. Since your at stock ride height with stiff springs, this should NOT be an issue. For reference, here are some pictures from the Civic/Integra forums (again only an issue on super low cars):


Dent- Stock UCA-this is the type of dent/cracks it makes when running factory UCA


Dent-After market Camber Kit-Skunk2, Buddy Club, Ksport, that style usually forms dimple cracks above from the corners of the square boxed ends they have.


As for the RC stuff, that may have been me. I have been racing 1/10th scale electric touring cars for a few years and I have learned most of my suspension theory from those circles (not that I'm good at it). Of course as you know theory and practice are two different things occasionally producing opposite results. I just find it amazing how every aspect of the suspension is tunable on these cars and produces different results on the track (mine shown below):

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

thank you both!
I love learning from you two!

94eg!

If you wanna see something really cool, check out this "digressive" spring-rate setup from DTM Touring car racing in Germany.



They use a custom shackle to pre-load a tender spring a set amount (for example say 1000lbs). Then it's placed in series (atop or below) the main spring. Once the corner load of the suspension overcomes the 1000lb pre-load, the tender begins to compress and the new combined spring rate of both springs together actually softens. It's the exact opposite of a progressive spring.

The point was to allow the car to hop curbs on tracks setup on city streets without destroying the suspension. The trick is building a combo that won't "soften" under normal cornering load (only under bump/impact load), and still fits within the confines of the chassis and suspension. This takes a lot of testing, measurements and calculations.

I always wondered if this had any possible uses on a street application where you frequently had relatively nasty road combined with stiff suspension.

Inaccurate

94eg!,

Thanks for the pics of the sharp looking RC car.

94eg!

No problem. I love pic-whoring my RC's... lol Here's more: http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p53/94eg/rc/

BTW: here is a clip of the Hudy Quick Reference setup guide for RC. This can give you an idea of how different changes to the suspension effect handling. You'll see it makes it simple by breaking down both oversteer & understeer into the 3 groups (Corner Entry, Mid Corner & Corner Exit). From there you will notice two sub-groups for each (On throttle & Off throttle). Once you identify your handling problem, you can use this guide to tune the problem out with whatever adjustments you have at your disposal with both front and rear suspension. The #1 in a given row would be the most effective at fixing your problem. From there you can then follow any given change up and down in the column to see how making such change would consequently effect handling in other parts of the turn.

Pretty cool. Also you will note how powerful sway-bar tuning can be with #1's all up and down each column. This is why they are such popular upgrades. But it's important to be aware of how it effects the car EVERYWHERE in a turn.



Just be aware that in RC, droop tuning is the source of much debate. The problem is that there are several ways to measure it. On this particular guide it's reffered to as downstop. Because of how this companies tools measure "downstop", when they say to increase/raise it, that means to reduce how far the wheel can droop down relative to ride height.
Raise Downstop = less droop.

twigglius

iTrader: (6)

Great info but why does this motor have brushes?


Brushless FTW!