Chad05TL

You never experienced these clunks but have you ever owned eibach springs? For me, it is good that you do not have any issues because, in a way, it verifies that these components in the attachment are working fine. And my car has only 84k miles and I bet yours has more.
So what are the other options? #1, get some OEM springs and use the lower perch on the Koni's. #2, Find another spring. Hopefully a spring that does not have 4 loops of helper. haha Is it still possible to buy Aspec springs? I have no idea how to look that up. All I see are manual and automatic springs on all dealer websites. Is the manual car aspec? I have no idea.

by the way, if I could avoid using Koni I would. Just because the lower mount is a universal size. It is about 1/4 inch too narrow for the Knuckle on the car. So you have to use spacers to fill the gap. And its a real B**** to get 2 spacers and the shock hole to line up, while the spring is pressing down, so you can slide the bolt through! its a real B**** with only 1 person. I hate those things and I'm totally over it. haha

The KYB's that I currently have on the rear ride just fine. And the bottom bolt hole is sized to fit the TL and that makes it a ton easier!. But I did notice that the OEM boot has a super snug fit around the shock where the spring sits. Its actually a little bit too small for the KYB, so I put like 3 little slits in the boot which might have helped very slightly, but it seems to be fitting ok. Also, the top of the KYB requires you to use vise grips to hold the rod still while you ratchet the bolt on. That is sort of a pain. At least the koni's has a socket that will fit the top rod. But nothing compares to having to hold your tongue just right to get the bottom of the Koni's mounted. I'd rather take the KYB's with the 2 slight draw backs, rather than using Koni's with the 1 major drawback of that lower mount. Its just a Universal shock. And by the way, the Koni perch, it will only lower 1/2" but will raise 1" from factory. For me, that is about perfect IF you have the aspec springs which really only lower 1/2" as well. You know, I had aspec springs, but I sold them! haha I guess I should have kept them. I had a funny feeling I should have kept them when I sold them. oh well! Its only money! haha I'm getting off the subject..

H23Accord

iTrader: (8)

No the Eibach springs is 1 set of springs I hadn't tried yet. It was on my list of springs to trial but I never got to them and I am not sure I ever will at this point as I am happy with my current Koni/aspec setup. But I was referencing more to the point that despite the many setups I have had, I have never had any noises or issues. That was with both stock shocks and Konis. That thought made me wonder if the springs I had been using were progressive or not. Since I was cleaning my garage today and pulling a lot of parts out that I no longer need and will end up selling, I found my nearly new set of Tein h techs. In looking at them they almost have a linear setup but in the rear the top 2 coils form into a progressive setup. But it is only 2 coils. The rear is linear. Plus they already have what you referenced as the spring isolator on them. Maybe the combination could be a reason why I didn't run into the same problems as you. I didn't have any issues with the Tein S techs either back when I had them although I preferred the ride of the H techs as it felt more stockish yet still lowered me to an appropriate ride height all around. I liked the setup and the only reason I changed it up was because I came across a set of aspec springs I wanted to try and thus no longer have a need for the h techs.

I agree with you on the Koni rear mounts being smaller then the OEM mounts. I feel having only 1 person makes the rear installation a challenge anyway but the additional need to line up the thru bolt up with spacers, the shock, more spacers, and ultimately the other side to the nut can add to that challenge. I've done it so many times now that I'm used to it so it's not as big a deal now but I still understand where you are coming from on it. I would still choose the Konis since the long term ability to adjust the dampening outweigh the short term install time and challenges.

Chad05TL

I avoid adjusting shocks. I dont know why people need that. Maybe if they track their car and they want it firmer on a track and then more normal on the street... Or if you are really anal about the differences between hot and cold weather, then you might find a reason to adjust them, but otherwise for me, it is "set it and forget it". You can blow out these Koni's by riding around on them with too firm settings on the street.. TL is a sedan and not a good track car unless you have dreams about it being a race car. The engine doesnt torque enough, but it does rap out nicely. And if you want to adjust them, you have to dismantle certain parts of your car to get to the shock. So its not something I practice. All you need is a good shock absorber and roll with it. That is my opinion. but if people want to play with it, then go for it. But I dont track my car. And the weather/temperature differences doesn't bother me that much. temp chances are slow anyway. Plus you can buy stiffer or softer shocks based on preference without having to buy something that is adjustable. Anyway, been there, done it.. over it. haha re-dic. Not sure why Bilstien doesn't make one for the Acura TL. I bet one of the honda ones will work. You know all these 4 door Honda/Acura sedans are the same. The newer Accord, the 3G TL, the accord sport, they all have the TypeS 3.5 engine.. Same car. Same boring car. haha But the new TLX is replacing something from Honda. It's a middle of the road car. Like, kinda small, kinda nice, kinda cheap, kinda sporty but not too much, just overall kinda boring.. I bet you can guess my next car will not be a Honda or an Acura.. haha Maybe one of these 3. 1 2 3 why do you have to spend 40k to get a nice car these days? I mean my TL is as nice as the 20k cars already.. like why trade for another 20k car? I already have 1. Navi and all the rest. haha mind boggling.

H23Accord

iTrader: (8)

Well sounds like the Konis aren't exactly a fit for what you are looking for in a shock absorber and perhaps the KYBs are a better solution. I don't necessarily feel a car needs to be a track car to appreciate the ability to adjust things to suit my driving style and or spring setup and or road conditions. Granted it can take time to dial it in at times and for the most part it is set it and forget it once it is dialed in. But for times when I feel the need to adjust, it's great to know it is there. But clearly I am anal about differences between hot and cold with as many suspension setups as I've been through.
Granted we could go buy one of the many shock absorbers available and for some/most that works fine, but in realizing not everything is necessarily a one size fits all setup, it is great to know there is an option out there with the ability to have a range of adjustment to dial it in to how you drive. Taking it one step further, there have been times when my "boring" car feels just that, but nothing like a turn of the knob on the ol' Konis to spice things up and make the car feel different/new. Konis aren't for everyone and most won't get the full use out of them but there are a few of us that make the cost worth the purchase.

I'm a little confused, I thought you were using Konis all around but you mentioned recently you are running KYBs in the rear. DId you end up switching them in in place of the Konis and I just missed it in reading through the thread? If so, was there any difference in ride quality, height, or noise?

Chad05TL

yes I bought 4 KYB's, and I like the KYB's on the rear just fine. I still have the Koni's on the front. I dont ride with the Koni's on stiff anyway. It's just a TL. And I just drive it daily on the street. I dont want it stiff. Just as long as the car stays in control we are good. That said, I think under extreme bounces, the Koni's are better at controlling the bounce. I might have hit 1 hard bump in the past 2 weeks where I thought the KYB's didn't quite match the Koni's. But that is just once. Otherwise, the ride feels the same. No difference in height when compared to koni on the middle perch. As far as noise, well, the KYB shock itself is quieter than the Koni IF you listen to them both with that Steelman Chassis Ear that I have. But from a driving position without any aids, both shocks are equally as quiet. With the Wireless Ear I could hear some squishy noises inside the Koni. But no squishy noise inside the KYB. But just driving normally no squishy noises. But if you are talking about the "Clunk" noise, No difference in that between KYB and Koni. I do actually have a 3rd shock that I bought for cheap from Amazon or Ebay. That shock I could hear squishy noises even just driving normally without the "Steelman Chassis Ear".

so yes, I have 4 KYB, 4 Koni and 2 of those cheap shocks. I'll be selling some of them soon. Because I dont think I have a shock problem.

Chad05TL

interesting link. The aspec springs from oem, on the rear, they have essentially double insulation on the lower rate coil side, because they didnt skip a loop between each loop. Plus the insulators look thicker than the eibach insulators...

https://acurazine.com/forums/car-par...s-bnib-716697/

Chad05TL

So I bought some used TypeS spring assemblies so I could just use the spring itself. And I figured I would re-install the Koni's on the rear and use the lower perch, since the oem springs sit on the high side. So, I lowered it down to the bottom perch, which is 5/8" lower than the oem position, and I just did the drivers side, the ride height is fine, its about 1 finger higher than the eibachs on the oem perch position, and it came back with some noise again. The noise is not the kind when the springs clank together like when you roll off a Speed bump, instead it is just a little rattle like over wavey ripples in the road. So its either 2 things. It is either the Shock itself or the "general stiffness" of the Koni and typeS spring that is causing something else to rattle on my car. You can hear the rattle at just 10 miles per hour when pulling through my apartment complex at low speeds. So how much stiffer is the Koni and TypeS springs vs the Kyb & eibach springs? The Koni's are set on full soft and it is still stiffer than the Kyb and Eibach setup. I can see the spring rate is higher on the TypeS springs because the coils are more angled vertical than in the horizontal position. As noted above, the low rate side of any progressive rate coil is the side where the coils are closely wound. That is where it collapses first, and those coils are more horizontal than the rest of the spring. And comparing the rest of the eibach spring and the TypeS spring, the eibach is more horizontal than the typeS. So yes I can "see" that is has a higher spring rate. And I also viewed the TypeS spring whhile it was fuully loaded, and the coils are not touching each other. And therefore it cant be making any noise at 10 mpg. Plus these are OEM coils. They wont rattle. So, either the Shock is messed up or again something on my car is making noise when the Koni+typeS springs are instaleld even though the koni's are on full soft. That seems odd that the koni's+TypeS springs would be frmer, but I also tested the stiffness with just using my weight and hands and pushing down on the spring assmeblies while both are off the car. And yes, the TypeS+Koni's compress less than the Eibach+KYB springs. So, if the Koni's+TypeS assembly is firmer, then again, either the car has a bad component on it somewhere and it is pronounced with the Koni+TypeS setup OR the Koni shock itself is bad. Whichever the case, I do not know, but I reinstalled the KYB+Eibach assembly and the noise went away. At least, if it is making a noise, I can barely hear it. And this way is the only way passable. I would love to use the Koni and TypeS springs but it's making noise that way. And I still can't find the problem. Oh, the Problem still remains with the Sharp Hitting bumps. I hate to make this more complicated, but I think I am getting noise from multiple issues. First it was the clanking of the springs and when I rolled off a speed bump or other bumps, it was making a fairly loud noise. Well, that was solved with Spring Isolators/insulators. So finally that is gone! And I am happey about that. But this tiny rattle over wavy surfaces at 10 mph exists with only the Koni+TypeS setup. And then with both setups I hear clunk when doing faster speeds , like 20mph+, on the sharp, quick hitting bumps. So, i'm only partially successful with this noise.

Here is what I have done:
Replaced rear Swaybar links
I have had 2 sets of Upper control arms on the rear.
I have had 3 sets of Shocks on the rear.
I have had 2 sets of springs
I have a Steelman wireless ear, to help troubleshooting. And it has been helpful but still not able to find the big sharp hitting clunk.
I have have spring Insulators on every coil, and not just every other coil.. I have had it both ways actually..

haha I dont think I'm ever going to buy another Honda/Acura like this. If I did, I would not touch a darn thing on the suspension. Even changing light bulbs on the oem navi/radio is dangerous. haha

The only other thing for me to try would be to replace the rear trailing arm. Or maybe a few other arms. None of them I ever heard any noise, but I am not sure if I tested them under the right conditions. Like the big clunk happens on sharp hitting bumps.. ya that one.. I might have only been driving around the apartment complex at 10mph when testing for "the other noises" that I was hearing. So I might need to change the test and do it at highway speeds. There is 1 place on Dallas highways where it always clunks. haha

Anyway the last thing I can possibly think of where I do not know if I messed up, but take a look at the Spacer in the picture.. It is beveled. I replaced this with a flat washer on Koni's, because it Koni's again, are a universal shock and the washer wont fit the shaft, and neither will the dust cover, you have to drill it out. And even on the KYB shocks, it will fit but not too well. It goes over most of it but it get hung up at 1 point and so I just took it off. However, I tightened the top bolt/nut down on both the KYB and the Koni to where the bolt simply stops and it tightened down on the "cylinder" that goes through the top hat. So, its TIGHT! I dont know how it could be rattling if it is. UNless something is important about the Bevel!

H23Accord

iTrader: (8)

Referencing the Koni/type s setup, did you experience the noises on both sides or just one? If just one, did you swap the two to the opposite sides, the right to left and the left to the right, to see if the noise traveled with it? Perhaps this will help you further isolate the noise you are hearing.

Also I was a little confused on how you were able to tell the type s spring rates were higher just simply by looking at them especially since my understanding is the type s springs are linear if I remember correctly? Though I could tell in feel, I certainly couldn't tell a difference in which springs had the higher spring rate when I was comparing my aspec and my friend's type s springs.

Also do you have enough washers/spacers taking up the slack where the bolt slides through to connect the shock to the car? If not than the washers can rattle due to having gap to move. I had this problem, threw in 2 more washers and problem solved.

Not sure on the clunk noise. Maybe have someone ride with you in the seat where you hear the clunk and see if they can help pin point it. If it is in the rear I would have someone ride in the back but remove the seats to hear it better or ride in the trunk.

Chad05TL

I have had the same noises, whether it be the lower sounding clunk or the rattle when rolling off a speed bump, on both sides. The rolling off speed bump noise was fixed with spring insolators/isolatores.
But the clunk seems to be worse on the drivers side. So that has been my focus. But when I was successful at reducing noise on the drivers side, I also did the passenger. And presently I have KYB+eibach on both sides. I put the Koni+typeS back on the car and there was more noise.. So, whatever the problem is I dont know. Whether it be a bad control arm or the bushing, or something loose inside the gas tank or the gas nossel, which is on the drivers side, I do not know. But I had to put the KYB/eibach back on the car. I would have put the KYB+TypeS sprng on, but too much lift. Kyb doesnt have a lower perch.

How could I tell the typeS spring rate has a higher spring rate? well, I already said the lower spring rate side of any progressive rate spring is side that collapses first, and the coils are closer together, and the coils are more horizontal than sloped upwards.. So lets ignore that low rate side of the eibach, and focus only on the linear portion. That linear portion is more sloped vertical than horizontal compared to the TypeS spring. So "Visually" it looks like it is a higher spring rate. Both typeS and eibach are 1/2" coils thickness. So comparison is more true. Also, my weight would push down eibach's but I could barely get the typeS spring to budge with my weight. Granted, if I am pressing down with my weight on the eibachs, the lower rate side will compress first. So, using my weight is not an effecient way to compare the LINEAR portions of both springs because I need more weight to do that and to fully compress the lowrate side of the eibachs.. So, basically the difference here is that the TypeS springs will not ride on a low rate side like the eibachs will. And at low speeds, the TypeS will feel firmer.. And when I test drove it, it did seem firmer by seat of the pants driving, but most importantly, I had noise come back on the drivers side only.. At this moment i had KYB/eibach on the passenger and Koni/TpyeS on the drivers side.. I was not going to install it on the passengers for extra work. no need for that.. So, then I pulled it back off the car and reinstalled the KYB/eibach and the noise left! And that is how it is going to stay until I can further determine if the Koni itself is bad, OR if the slight increase of firmness made something on my car rattle more.. Because with this added firmess it started rattling again over smaller wavy surfaces, INCLUDING the quick hitting bumps which causes a clunk.

Washers: I have had 3 washers, and 1 washer. I have also coated 1 wash with that rubberized coating dip from Pastidip, so I got a nice "unclunkable" washer.. And in every case, I still get noise. The trick with that is to make sure the top nut/bolt is tightened all the way down to where it will not turn anymore. When you cannot tighten it any further, the bottom washer, and the middle cylinder flange, and the top nut are all tight together.. There is no slack in that.

Rear seat: It's been removed for 5 months. haha I'm still trying to find the source of the noise. You're right.. you can hear it better with the seat out. That rear seat is the most insulating thing I have ever seen. I know that is why Honda put that on there. The new Camaro back seat is basically a little flap. haha Thats the backrest. So ya I am sure Honda was trying to reduce generalized road noise.. Because I have a lot of that too. It might be bearings or tires.. I do not know. I do remember that when I got my S-04 tires, that I said "More noise". These tires are noisey but they handle great. Real hard side walls, but you pay for it with noise! There's always a trade-off when it comes to tires. If I keep the car, then I will remove those tires and sell them.

btw, ya it would be a good idea to have someone drive while I stick my head around from top to bottom and even the rear trunk to pinpoint a closer location of the noise. And I have a stethoscope too.. Those work great on fuel injectors.

Chad05TL

can the bushings on the control armS wear out and cause noise?.. Also, I read somewhere that Honda installed better bushings or different kinds on the subframe on the 07 / 08's..

Chad05TL

I made 2 discoveries this week. Maybe its a no brainer, maybe not.. The washer is tapered to match the form of the top of the shock shaft. So there is a top and a bottom to it. If you install a flat washer it will allow for "wiggle" on the top washer. But will it cause noise even if it is tightened down? I do not know yet. I have to take off the shock again and redo it, maybe this coming friday ot saturday. Even if it is tight, I am not sure if it will remain stable under "driving forces".. The 2nd thing I found , after slow closer look, and waking up in the mornings thinking about it, I found the OEM Tophat has much harder plastic in the center than the aftermarket stuff. The OEM center plastic/rubber cannot be squeezed by hand. It's very hard. The aftermarket rubber is not a plastic. It is very squeezable. Plus, notice the cylinder is flush in the aftermarket setup. This allows the bottom of the shock to literally connect to the top nut. It's like a solid link. But the OEM, the aluminum cylinder is Recessed! and that plastic cannot be compressed. So, this is not allowing the top of the Boot to actually "connect" to the top nut as far as "metal to metal" is concerned. So, I think it is possible that aftermarket setup could allow more sounds to be "transferred" to the inside of the car. So, is this the problem? I will find out this coming week.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

1) the oem bushing in your 4th pic must be a sport/type-s one. That is not plastic. These bushings have a metal washer galenized in them to make them firmer and give better road feel. It is the same bushing used on the S2000 and ITR. We sell them on Heeltoe as upgrades to people with standard bushings, such as the rubber ones in your 5th pic there which come on a Base TL.



And 2) In your 5th pic the rubber bushings are upside down. This is not an aftermarket upper mount as far as it looks to me. It looks like a factory Base mount. They should be assembled like this on the top and bottom of the hat...






And on the OP's issue.... the knocking sound is not normal (normally) but is common with the Function Form dampers. The problem is the damper has lost gas pressure. You need a new one. Heeltoe sells replacements.

Chad05TL

Thanks for the pics I have had those oem rubber Bushings mounted both ways. And they are so soft that when you tighten them down, they deform and get smashed anyway. So I don't think I am getting any noise from those rubber Bushings being flipped. I might already have them on properly because that picture was taken a while back. And I've had the shocks and top hats on and off several times. But yes, I bought some type S coil/shock assemblies. And the "plastic-ISH" harder galvanized grommets, whatever they are, is next to be installed. Generally at this point, I want to re-install those thicker washers that have a taper , and remove that flat washer that I have riding on the lip/slope at the top end of the shock...where the dust cap sits. Will it fix the noise? We shall see.

WTLS

Chad, are the noise coming from the corner that has the Koni shock? I have gone down that road twice with my Konis. First time brand new straight out from the box on the rear and the second time about 20k miles on the front. I still have those clunking shocks in my garage just to remind me not to let the brand name blind me when I'm trying to figure out a problem.
As far as the wheel gap for the rear, the type-s manual trans springs do seem to raise the car more than the auto ones. I didn't believe it until I put the auto trans spring back on.

Chad05TL

I have 3 sets of shocks. And presently I have kyb on the rear. And this clunk happens with either koni or kyb. And I agree the type s springs will raise it somewhat. But I have eibach springs. I am not using the springs on the rear at the moment. Because there was more rattling with the type S springs the with the eibachs. But IF I find the rattle, I may switch to the type s springs and and konis with the perch on the bottom. Which is 5/8" drop.

SpeedyDino8

Yeah I think my coilovers are blown. The ride quality is shit and it just feels like something is bouncing around on the right front coilover while the others are riding smooth. It has gotten way worse the last month since I posted this thread almost a year ago.

Chad05TL

if it is bouncing it has lost all its pressure.


On other topics, I replaced the shock with the oem shock from those 2 I picked up from the salvage yard, and the shock still has pressure in it.. it works about as good as a kyb.. based on how much hand pressure it takes to push it down and how quick it returns to full height, and I also replace the Tophat with that "sport version" OEM top hat. I only replaced 1 side, the worse side, which is the drivers rear, just to see if it would fix the clunk, and I replaced the Topnut that you see in the pictures above, and the only thing I have on it that is not OEM is the Eibach srpings, which is loaded with insulators, and NOPE it did not fix the clunk!

So at this time, I think either the subframe has bad insulators/rubber or 1 of the control arms has bad bushings. And there are like 5 control arms on the rear, on each side. But I had 2 different upper control arms on the car already and the noise existed with both, so I dont think it is the upper control arm. And there are about 6 insulators and rubber mounts on the rear subframe. It has to be coming from a control arm or the subframe.

So 1 thing, when I jack the car up, I usually put the jack on the front subframe mount (of the rear subframe) which is in front of the rear tire. SEE the red circle. There is a flat spot there, minus the bolt head. So, is that bad? Could a floor jack cause damage to the front subframe mount on the rear subframe ?SEE PIC.

BROlando

Gas pressure in twin tube dampers is very low. It is often not seperated from the oil like it is on a monotube.

If your damper is not returning upward after pushing it down by hand...that doesn't tell you much without first knowing quite a few things about the damper. People do that test all the time and...its fairly useless.

Are you sure the clunk is coming from the spring? Have you checked other things? Sway bar links? Ball joints?

As far as the top hat bushings...

The TLS bushing is metal reinforced. It has to be drilled out to use Koni yellows. Once it is drilled out, you cannot use it on another stock or stock replacement shock because the hole is now way too big.

If you have soft rubber bushings (base model), they will only compress as much as the metal sleeve inside of them allows. Is yours missing the metal sleeve? They should not just keep compressing.

Chad05TL

see below.
​​​​​​​

Chad05TL

i forgot to mention, I have new swaybar links on front and rear.. So thats not it either. Plus, a good way to test is just disconnect 1 side of the swaybar.. And wrap it up and go for a drive. It totally removed the sway bar from the picture. And yes, "I done it."

BROlando

All 3 shocks will rebound after being compressed. But note that the Koni will return MUCH slower if you set the valve stiffer...while not being any harder to push down than before.

But back to your issue....thought about buying a cheapo go-pro knockoff and sticking it under the car? Or a real go-pro if you have a secure way to mount it?

Chad05TL

[QUOTE=Roland_Bluntzs;159425
But back to your issue....thought about buying a cheapo go-pro knockoff and sticking it under the car? Or a real go-pro if you have a secure way to mount it?[/QUOTE]

Not a bad idea. I would have to aim the camera directly at a joint and watch for movement. Not a bad idea. Been thinking about buying one anyway like for inside the carr too.. not sure if I will though..
You know, I was inspecting the lower arms and I think the rear upper control arm is actually mounted on the subframe. So, if I am getting noise in the cabin and I can't hear it outside, and the suffrage is also supposed to be insulated, then it would be better to start with components that are attached dire try to the body. But I already had the upper control arm swapped out with another one at another time, so I doubt that is the source anyway, but it's just reasonable to start elsewhere first... unless of course I have a bad subframe rubber bushing. . Going to bed...lata

Chad05TL

I think I have it fixed. 2 days and no rattle on the side I was working on, which is the drivers rear.. the passenger rear is not as bad but I still need to address it. The noise is coming from between the tophat and the body/chassis. 6 months ago, I made a rubber washer out of a mouse pad and cut it to fit the top hat. While it was installed I noticed the rattle was muffled and it helped, but it was not eliminated. When I installed the typeS tophat recently, the rattle got worse even though I was using this homemade mouse pad as a "rubber washer". So, in the past few weeks, i thought maybe the mouse pad is actually making it worse? So I took it out and the rattle got worse.. so that was clue'ing me to the problem. So, this weekend I did 3 things.. I removed the entire shock assembly and went back to the base TL top hat with those softer rubber components. But before i installed the assembly, i put 3 thin layers of duck tape on top the top hat. Then i added 2 layers of that rubbery carpet anti-slip tape. Then i added 1 layer of cardboard, and mounted that up into the body chassis where the top hat sits. Then as a precaution or added measure, I replace the rubber grommets that go around the metal cylinder and flipped them over as someone mentioned above. These rubber grommets are slightly taller than the oem and when I tightened down the shock at the end, I did not tighten it so hard to the point the nut just stopped turning. I only tightened it until it was very snug. So i thouht this way it might give room for the rubber grommet to actually do its thing. I know that is counterintuitive to loosen it to make it stop rattling, but that is what I did since I tried everything else. So what actually stopped the rattle? Was it the "insulation" that I put between the top hat and the body? Or was it new rubber grommets flipped over the correct way? Or was it simply not tightening the nut all the way? Well, I think it was the insulation between the top hats and the body. I don't think it was the rubber grommets because it was making noise even with the typeS tophat, which consists of much harder grommets. I think the reason the rattle made more noise with the typeS tophats is because since the rubber grommets are harder, it would transfer more vibrations from the shock through the tophat itself.. and this top hat is what was rattling against the body, up in that moulded hole where it sits. Either way, it has not been making any noise he past 2 days and I have been driving over bumps where I know it always rattles everyday when I go to work. Now I just need to do the passenger side..

Chad05TL

Still fixed. No noise from drivers side. I am installing the rubber gaskets that I got from home Depot on the passenger side tonight. If all goes well, then i will redo the drivers side. So, imagine that. Acura has a rattle problem between the tophat and the body. Makes sense because it is metal on metal. And even the rear subframe has rubber insulators between it and the body.and that would be metal on metal too, if there was not an insulator...

BROlando

I'm glad your issue is fixed.

This is not a noise that Acuras are prone to make, though. They wouldn't release a car that has an inherant rattle from the suspension as "normal" operation. I think your issue is unique to YOUR Acura (no offense).

I've never experienced stock tophats rattling the way you're describing in the 16 years that I've owned and worked on Hondas. Some models use a rubber ring for water proofing, but not for rattle abatement.

I don't know if there are too many other manufacturers that use rubber between the tophat and the chassis. The rubber would degrade fairly quickly in that spot. I am fairly sure your home depot gasket won't last very long.

Idk if you already covered this...but do you have the rubber spring damper that goes between the spring and top hat? Is it in good shape?

Also, the center tophat nut has a torque spec of 25LB-FT, IIRC. Using a basic torque/tension relation, that 25LB-FT provides a clamp load (M10 fastener) of like 5-6000ish LB. So...the donut tophat bushings will compress until the metal sleeve stops the compression. In other words, don't just partially tighten them. Set the torque or at least tighten the nut til thd sleeve stops it.

Chad05TL

Ya thanks for reminding me about that torque spec on the top shock nut. I was going to look that up. I don't know what IIRC is, but 25ftlb is not Much! In fact, the front upper control arm is set that 24 I think. And that is not tight at all!! So, that just confirms that I was right, you don't want to tighten down that nut until it just stops and won't go any further. That would be waaaayyy over 25ft lb...

Yes I bought a new rubber spring insulator too. The one that goes at the top between the spring and the top hat. I also replaced the entire tophat with a typeS tophat. None of that fixed the noise. I've had 3 sets shocks on it.. 2 sets of springs, and none of that fixed the noise. Granted, the eibach were at one time clanking together on the low rate side, but I fixed that too, in this process.

And these rubber gaskets will last PLENTY long. There is not near as much splashing happening between the body and the tophat compared to all the other rubber grommets and boots and insulators on the lower suspension. But opinions are opinions. To each their own..

I agree it does not make sense that acura would produce an issue like this, on many cars, but I know there are others who suffer the same trouble after some years, observing noise on SHARP BUMPS. So, this is why I posted it. To help other people, because I have spent a year or more with a rattling rear end, and replaced all the popular and heavily mentioned components and none fixed it. But here above, is the solution. And that is why no one can find it. Because it rattles where it is not supposed to..

Anyway, I see where this is going.. I've made my testimony to anyone who wants to try what I did...no more rattles.. and yes I finally found it.. that just means I can finally reinstall my backseat, and maybe I'll keep the car longer and put my amp and sub back in it.. I was about to trade.. driving me nuts.. haha

BROlando

I think 25LB-FT being "not much" is a relative term. Again, that's like 5000-6000 LB of clamp load with a M10 fastener. It might seem like not much in terms of applied torque if you're using a large torque wrench. But its significantly more than "snug". And I would not go looser than 25LB-FT since the shock shaft puts loads in both directions onto the bushings. You don't want that stupid thing coming loose. 25LB-FT was probably a slight compromise due to huge factors of safety. Proof load torque for a M10 C10.9 fastener is like...57LB-FT.

The tophat-to-shock tower nuts also get 25LB-FT. That would clamp the tophat to the shock tower at...again...about 5000-6000LB per location. That's just fastener preload. Adding the weight of the car significantly increases that. Which is one of the reasons that manufacturers don't put rubber between the tophat and shock tower. The rubber would have to have a very high compression strength, as well as an extremely high resistance to creep since it isn't restrained from creeping by anything. Also... if the rubber compresses or creeps, those nuts will come loose.

Again....not quarreling with you. And I hope your fix lasts a long time. You should probably try bolting everything back together WITHOUT your home made insulators first. You made a few other changes. You almost NEVER see rubber between two bolted structures for a lot of reasons. Your subframe and control arm bushings have a metal sleeve, for example.

Chad05TL

I would go back and read all those long posts I made then you will see that what you suggest will not help. And if you have ever put 25 ft lbs on a bolt or nut, using a medium length torque wrench, you'll know its not that tight. And to confirm I'm not on Crack, I replaced my front upper control arm and when I unbolted it, my reaction was like holy crap, that thing is not tight at all. Like borderline, loosh-ish.. and when I retightened the new upper control arm, to about 24 foot pounds, it required about the same effort to install as the one I took off.. so it confirmed that 24 fp is not that tight and the original upper arm was instaled that way since 2005.. but yes, 24fp is more than snug but it's Hella less than punching the nut down to lock stop-no go any further. Like half as tight. But I will use a torque wrench on the passenger side tonight and I will let you know how it goes and how it feels compared to "tightening it down to where it stops and won't go any further".

I will see about putting a "lock washer" on the 2 tophat nuts just for added security. I'm actually a little bit surprised they dont have one. I mean the lower control arms have locking nuts. Why not the tophat?

But you're more than welcome to come unbolt and Uninstall and reinstall everything if you really want to show me how I am not doing something right. I've had different types of tophat tightened down to the nut stops with no insulation between the tophat and the body hundreds of times, and it rattles. Meaning, I've already done it the way you suggest many many times.

BROlando

Torque-off is normally a little lighter than torque-on.

My main point is to demonstrate why nobody sandwiches a free floating piece of rubber between two bolted structural members. By "nobody", I mean its an extremely unusual type application...for many many design reasons.

Its not the right thing to do. A lock washer isn't necessary...nor is it a good solution for the issue of rubber creep/deformation.

Your lower arms have nylon insert nuts for a lot of reasons. Mainly that the fastener is used in torsion, there is a light torque, and those are alignment bolts with moveable shims.

Not all the chassis fasteners use nylon inserts either.

Anyway...its your car. And there are lots of ways to resolve an issue. I don't think you've found a viable or safe way. I'm just looking out for a fellow human lol.

Good luck, bud. I wouldn't recommend your insulators.

Chad05TL

it always amazes me how disagreements always goes way off the subject.. and the locking nuts that i aee on my lowee control arms have locking nuts specifically because there are no washers and no nylon washers, if that is what tou are talking about. But this is horribly off the subject..

craziness.

BROlando

1.) You are the one who started talking about locking hardware.

2.) Locking hardware is not a solution.

3.) Nylon insert nuts. Not nylon washers. I never mentioned nylon washers. Nylon insert nuts are nuts that have nylon inserts in them. This keeps them from falling off. They are also called "Nyloc" nuts.

BROlando

I'll put into perspective what I'm saying:

The car didn't leave the factory with a rattling suspension...nor is it part of the car's design.

You're attempting to fix a problem that you've somehow created by using rubber you bought at home depot.

I've quantified the REASONS that you shouldn't use your rubber insulators. If it were a good idea or if it were necessary, the engineers at Acura would have used them.

They are neither a good idea, nor are they an actual solution.

t-rd

Sorry, but I actually think you have your springs mounted inverted. I drove with Eibach prokit + koni adjustable struts for 8 years on my old 98 V6 accord. Never ever did I experience any clunking, with the spring silencers or rubber insulators that came with the springs. I didn't need to add extra ones. The closer together or higher spring rate coils should be up top, not at the bottom. Your pictures show yours mounted at the bottom. The coils that should move up and down constantly during normal driving are the lower spring rate coils, at the bottom, during street driving. Then the closer together coils are compressed only during hard cornering, incurring a stiffer feel, while using the closer together coils up top.

Chad05TL

Right.. they were inverted, so I reversed it. it didn't make any difference in the rattle.. But this below seems to have worked. I already removed the shock and spring and cut out that rubber gasket, replaced the rubber grommet in the top hat, and been to the grocery store and back. haha The rubber washer does take out some of the threads for the nut, but it does compress somewhat.. and the nuts will full seat past the end of the bolt. and I got them Very Tight! Way beyond 24 FP. And even the top shock nut is likely more than 24FP. So were good. I installed 2 of those rubber gaskets.. which makes it thicker, but I got the nuts to go down past the end of the bolt.. so I think it is secure.

Chad05TL

I just remembered about the clanking from the springs. The springs will definitely clank if you do not have insulators on every other coil, of the low rate end, which has 4 coils. They clanked And yes, I have owned other Eibach springs and they never clanked. But the rear springs on this TL, have progressive rate springs. The front is not progressive rate. Only the rears will clank if you have only 1 insulator on these springs because 1 will not cover 4 coils. And it does not matter if the spring is upside down or not. It will still clank without the proper positioning of insulators or with not enough insulators. but only on the progressive rate springs.. This does not apply to the constant rate springs.

I had 2 sources of noise. both are fixed now..

Chad05TL

old thread.. but I found the front rattle. I swapped out the Koni shock on the front drivers side this morning, and the rattle is gone. The Koni's have been rattling ever since new. like 4 years! insane. (yes I had rattling in the rear and the front) I had Koni's on the rear too at one time. In the process of isolating rattles, the rear koni's were also removed. So I am on Kyb+ eibach..

Slpr04UA6

Hmmmm. Interesting, how many miles on the koni's? I still have a rattle in the rear, haven't had time yet to properly diagnose, I'm thinking upper rear camber arm. I have oem in There now, but plan to purchase SPC upper arm.

Chad05TL

The Koni's rattled ever since new. If you still have your oem upper camber arm, then you can swap it out as a test. But I did all that, and changed nothing in the rear..

Slpr04UA6

I have had the rattling for a bit now, not since new. I replaced sway bar endlinks, and that didn't solve anything. Also removed all koni's to recheck installation (correctness), and everything was and is installed correctly. I only have ~35K on the Koni's, and can't imagine that they are blown. I only hear the rattling over small undulations in unperfect roads, nothing on smooth pavement.

Chad05TL

sway bar end links didnt help me either! haha 1 thing for sure I have practically a new suspension.. I remember 2 years ago I took my car to a place to have it aligned and he said " I dunno, those shocks you have on there"... he implied they were likely the cause of the rattle.. And i thought to myself: "naaaaa!!" sure enough.. he was right. But go your own route, and do your double checks. But there is not much that can rattle on the rear. Even the control arms have a rubber grommet between metal pieces. So the likelihood of them rattling is slim. But some bushings have a metal ball joint in them and they can rattle. but on our cars, the rear does not have a ball joint in them. And I think neither does the front. I know the front compliance bushing swivels but I think other than the metal sleeve in the center of the bushing and the outer metal ring, the rest is all rubber. Rubber doesn't rattle like metal will. there may be "play" from a worn bushing but noise is rare unless the bushing is sooo worn that the arm is fallen off basically.. and banging on something. but you could see that Easily!

I think slowly the rattle will get worse and worse. For me, 2 weeks ago, regarding the front end, I started my car and backed out of a parking spot and I heard a BOiNG! Like a spring goes BOING.. But my springs are fully seated for over a year and are fully insulated with spring isolators (insulators) that grasp each coil. So there is no way the spring was making that noise. I read online where 1 guy said that a Shock can make a spring noise that goes "boing". And considering I had other rattles, and considering I replaced everything on the front, including inner and outer tie rods, upper control arm, main lower ball joint, new front bearings, I knew the front shocks have got to come off the car! And bam! no more noise. crazy. haha