6spMike

Probably not, but if enough people complain about the pinging, they might.

dingdongman

giving my dealer a 2 on a recent survey with AH has kicked the process into high gear. people from AH and my dealer called me within 12 hours of the phone survey and are now interested in the problem and this thread.

joelsaxton

Good work! Maybe Acura will finally get off their asses and do something about this problem.

I called an Acura rep the other day and he told me that the fact that 40% of the people here reported this problem wasn't sufficient cause to investigate..

I guess I'll need to go back to the dealer and try to replicate the problem again.

dingdongman

yes, hopefully so. I have enjoyed my Acuras though the years but I wont hesitate to turn them in and buy another brand. The only thing that can save my business now would be a fast release of the NSX concept and a realisitic price-point of sub 100K. Acura better make it quick though.

Lore

When I read that you guys had sounds when going uphill, it reminded me of my parents' 1992 Mazda MPV minivan. When that thing went up hill, it would make this chatter/clucking noise. It was pretty awful, and apparently, ALL Mazda MPVs did that. I think 4 or 5 of our neighbors had the same car with the same issue.

I never figured out what that sound was, but it didn't damage the car - it was just loud, annoying, and embarrassing. Is that pinging?

gulu100

Took my TL-S to the dealer today and drove around with the Service Guy. He said all the 6speeds on the lot have this same issue and as of now they do not have a fix for the pinging. He suggested trying a certain brand of gas and seeing if that helped at all. He said he will log the issue and bring it up when they talk to Acura Engineers.

bionicjoggingsuit

I just got my vanity plate to replace my regular car tag. It reads "CRAPURA"

doggydog

Wow, here I was contemplating on "trading-in" my 2006TL for a 2008 TL-S. BTW are the 40% of you that are having this problem, own a 2007 or 2008 TL-S?

joelsaxton

mine is 07 TL-S. At the time the survey was made, there were no 08 TL-S's.

joelsaxton

Interesting, my dealer never mentioned this to me at all. Did he mention if Honda is planning on doing something about this?

aznjeep

Not to beat a dead horse, but just picked up my CBP TL-S 5AT today from service. The tech agrees that he hears the knock/ping. He got in another TL-S that was delivered last week (fresh off the truck), and it does the same thing. When he reported this to Acura, here's the response he got, and is now on my invoice: "Vehicle is operating as factory intended at this time".

Just sharing what I got.....

joelsaxton

"Vehicle is operating as factory intended at this time" (perhaps the TL-S is the auto equivalent of Windows Vista and they'll worry about 'patching' it later)

Quite sad that this car is "supposed" to ping and rattle. If that's their attitude, I guess my next car will be from another company.

Bcc335

So If I understand Acura's response. All TL Type S owners whose car does not currently ping should return their vehicle imediately to the nearest Acura dealer so that their car can be made to operate as the "factory intended" with Acura Precision Ping

Acura Corporate double talk for:
We currently are unable to pull our head out of our a$$ due to the fact that we already have your money.

In addition, our lack of integrity in connection with implied customer service and engineering quality is brought on by our inability to see past our billfold(profit margins).

Please feel free to purchase another 40,000 dollar vehicle with the confidence of knowing that any major problems will simply be termed as "factory intended" and denied by Acura Corporate. Thank you and please go away soon.
Sincerly Acura Corporate

joelsaxton

Yes!

I even spoke to one of their reps on the phone and he wouldn't spill the beans, but definitely got defensive the more I started grilling him about the ping problem. Obviously, TL-S owners are a small portion of Acura's customer base so they don't want to waste too much energy on an itty bitty little problem like a crappy engine.

joerockt

Hey guys, I got my 08 TL-S last week, and I'm not noticing pinging or rattling of any sort.

joelsaxton

Leave the both windows rolled down for a while, and see if you notice anything. For me, it's intermittent.

Bcc335

Actually, I think its an excellent engine and quite an achievement. If I remember correctly about 30 percent of the cars I test drove had the ping. What was weird was usually pinging comes on mostly under load, but the pinging would happen at a strange point and then be gone.

I proably was a little to graphic in my last post but it pains me to see Acura take this positon (denial) on an issue like this. It's a disservice and a slap in the face to a very loyal customer base that wants to continue to believe in Acura's commitment to its customers and products.

I have no doubt that Acura could remedy this problem if it wanted to.

If corporations could see past short term profits for a sec they'd realize that addressing issues like this means integrity, customer base and money in the bank.

When issues like this come up this is when you separate the "Spin doctor, Good hands people Corporations" from those that stand behind their customer base and products.

I've been very interested in the TL Type S and got very close to pulling the trigger on one. But this issue along with the rear clunking and inability to color match the bumpers on an almost 40,000 vehicle has dampened my interest. At some point I may still try to find a non pinger but for these issues I would of bought months ago.

Coming to Acurazine allowed me to see a clearer picture concerning Acura and their products. Specifically how they respond to customers when there is an issue.

The best thing Acura could do is solve the problem or call a spade a spade. Anything but deny it exists.

joerockt

Sure, the picture is clear, but your only seeing a fraction of it. For every one person on this board that says they have a problem with something specific, there are thousands that don't. Think about it, most people on here had or have a problem, so they search to see if others are having the same and end up here. So you're really only going to hear from a person who have that same problem.

Now, I'm not denying the existence of this pinging problem, its obvious there is an issue here. All I'm saying is that it might not be as widespread as you might think. And in reality, Acura isnt the first and last to have issues such as this. You're going to find this with any other automaker out there. It sounds like the service dept's are doing their due diligence, just give it some time.

Personally, service has been great with Acura. I had some issues with my old TSX, but they were resolved in a reasonable amount of time. I don't see why this would be any different.

junktionfet

Sadly, my brand new TL-S pings pretty bad. At first I thought I had filled the tank with lousy gas, so I endeavored to drive it extra-gentle until it was time to fill up again. As luck would have it, the TL-S is quite economical if you drive it like you have some sense It took forever for that tank to disappear.

I filled up today and I think the pinging is actually worse with this gas than the previous tank! The intensity of the pinging increases with throttle angle. Engine management systems since the 1980s have had the ability to adapt timing based on data from the knock sensor(s), even on a per-cylinder basis! However this engine management system never seems to adapt--It seems like I might as well unplug the knock sensors.

The dealer's "service" department is going to look at it and let me know what can be done. Reading this thread does make me feel a bit better.

Special_K

Hey guys,

I'm brand new to the forum and I'll go ahead and admit that I don't exactly have a working, complete knowledge of the science behind all this "pingiing" and whatnot.

However, I did randomly come across this: http://www.autobarnparts.com/SEOPage...ermostats.aspx

"An open thermostat can result in low heater output, overheating and poor fuel economy. A thermostat that does not open all the way can cause knocking or pinging and overheating when accelerating."

Now I know that says it's for RL's 3.5, but since the 3G TL's just took the RL's 3.5, I think it stands to reason(obviously) that this still applies to the TL.

Don't know how much this helps, if it does at all.

scooter33

I had a 2004 with the pinging you discribe. Let me be clear - this was not a heat shield issue. I had my TL in five times and all they came up with each time is "you got bad gas"

After 2 years, I had enough Acura/Honda knows they have a problem and they refuse to fix it. I traded my TL in and said good riddens to Acura

FRST4DR

I answered no to the poll awhile back but though I herd it the other day. I have now had the car for 2 months and have 2000 miles on it. I will try and see if I hear it again.

juruki

iTrader: (2)

My windows are "FACTORY INTENDED" to rattle when opened just a little bit. They sound like they are gonna break when i close the door.

harddrivin1le

I'm glad we've got 93 octane here in the Northeast. Shell's V-Power seems to work well.

Doesn't Sunoco sell 94 octane Ultra in California?

This is DEFINITELY a pre-detonation issue that has NOTHING to do with valve lash/clatter.

The CR on this engine is 11:1. That's too high, IMO. They'd be better off with 10.5:1 and another 1/10th of a liter in displacement.

junktionfet

I hope everyone is aware that gasoline formulation varies from one area to another, in an effort to improve air quality. Some metro areas or entire states receive gasoline that has low evap additives and other crazy things to help reduce air pollution. I believe such additives increase a tendency to preignite. Other places are exempt and enjoy nice healthy gasoline. Raleigh is one of the places on the EPA crap list, and the gasoline here sucks. I love driving out to BFE and filling up because my cars always feel like they run so much better, even though the planet may not like it.

If the dealer can't fix my situation, I will become very unhappy, then I'm going to play with the spark plugs like I did to my TSX and my friend's TL. That helped to reduce the tendency for pinging quite a bit. My friend's TL had plugs with serious MMT deposits--that's totally not cool. My new TL-S is going to require a more drastic approach than those other cars needed because the pinging is so much worse.

Honda really should have engineered their cars with some headroom to account for places where "premium" gasoline really isn't all that "premium". From the looks of things, they aren't really making any effort to do so yet.

bionicjoggingsuit

That's because Acura put a special "trick the customer into buying a sucky car" additive into the gas tank which effectively prevents the car from pinging until after delivery. Just wait, you'll get it on the 3rd tank of gas. Enjoy!!

harddrivin1le

They'll end up issuing a recall if/when enough people report the problem.

I suspect that it's more likely to occur in the MT6 cars, since the automatic won't permit the engine to heavily load at lower RPMS without downshifting.

harddrivin1le

"Everything" isn't better.

The G-35's engine feels like it came from a truck due its Noise/Vibration/Harshness issues.

The BLOSE stereo sucks; it can't even match my '06 Accord's stock stereo.

They use cheaper interior materials.

And the fuel economy is sub-par.

junktionfet

With all of these cars pinging like they are, and the knock correction circuit "theoretically" pulling back the timing, I wonder what percentage of us are actually producing 286bhp? Each degree of timing retard is worth a few horsepower points. Really, the car needs colder spark plugs with a wider gap if they wish to preserve their claimed horsepower.

harddrivin1le

Do RLs ping?

The TL-S's engine is essentially an RL engine and they've been building the current gen. RL for some time now.

I'm wondering if this problem is more related to cars with manual transmissions, which are more likely to result in engine "lugging" without the automatic downshift that would occur with an automatic. (All RLs are automatics.)

Maybe the manual trans cars need a different spark map...

My Tl-S is an automatic. I haven't heard it ping - yet. I'm running Shell V Power 93 octane.

junktionfet

I've used Shell 93, BP/Amoco 93, and Citgo 93 thus far and I've had the problem. It could be that the manual transmission cars are more vulnerable, but my car will actually ping the worst at 3500-4500 RPM--it seems like it would be possible to reproduce those conditions with an automatic in "sport shift" mode.

fiveoh-tl

I have an '07 TL-S 5AT and use 93 octane gas. I only have 550 miles on the car and have not experienced this knocking or pinging.

Those of you that have experienced this problem, did your cars always make this noise or did it happen after a certain amount of miles???

harddrivin1le

The engine is still on the "primary" cam grind at that RPM range. Cylinder pressure is also peaking in that rpm range (peak torque range on the primary cam).

It probably goes away when VTEC switches over to the secondary cam lobes, cylinder pressure drops and swirl and tumble increase.

This is undoubtedly a detonation (e.g. "spark knock") issue. It sounds like a medium pitched "clatter" (or "ping") when you hear it.

The last time I heard that was in my mother's '69 Chevy back when I was a kid.

I've never heard a car from the mid 80s on do that and I've driven many dozens of them.

I haven't heard a sign of this in my car (am '07 TL-S automatic) and I paid particular attention all day after reading these posts. I've used the "sport shift" mode several times, too. I run 93 octane Shell.

94 Octane Sunoco Ultra might be enough to solve the problem in MT cars for those who have a Sunoco station nearby and don't mind paying the ~ 40 cent per gallon premium (vs. most 91/93 octane blends).

harddrivin1le

A good link on detonation/engine knock:

http://www.misterfixit.com/deton.htm

Note the section about lean vs. rich mixtures. Light/part throttle applications call up a lean mixture from the ECU/PCM. That further increase the likelihood of detonation. Pushing the pedal to the floorboards (or close to it) will call up a richer mixture and reduce the likelihood of detonation.

So...

Low-to-mid rpm + light-to-medium throttle application + driving in a higher gear than is "necessary" increase the likelihood of knock in an otherwise perfectly running engine.

If that's where people are experiencing the problem than it's most definitely a detonation related issue.

Either way, the car shouldn't be detonating AT ALL when 91 octane or above fuel is used!

joerockt

Sweet...Glad its a lease.

harddrivin1le

Acura will either issue a recall or a TSB; my money is on MT cars only.

Peak output (286 certified HP) won't change unless the problem is occurring near peak power rpm (6,200 RPM).

My guess is that it's not.

So they'll devise a new ECU/PCM program that cuts back spark and plays with the fuel curve in the lower to mid RPMs. There will be some power loss (and perhaps a small loss in fuel economy) in those rpm ranges.

junktionfet

Yeah I'm absolutely certain it's genuine spark knock. Detonation is almost impossible to hear at really high RPM because it's happening so fast and there is so much other noise anyway--I'm sure it still does it at high RPM, but perhaps not as much because timing is generally not as aggressive at full throttle anyway--in addition to the other factors you cite.

I wish I could sample 94 octane here, but we are limited to 87, 89, 92, and 93 octane in this area (and perhaps the entire state). Imagine how rough it must be in some states where you can only find 91 octane. Yikes...

harddrivin1le

There are other reasons why detonation is far less likely at high rpms - particularly on a VTEC engine with two cam profiles.

The "performance" cam profile is a "hotter" grind (more lift, duration and probably overlap). The dynamic compression ratio is lower when VTEC switches over to that profile. (The static compression ratio is fixed at 11:1, but it's the dynamic compression ratio that dictates cylinder pressure and the likelihood of "knock.")

Plus, the cylinder head port are sized to make peak torque @ 5,000 rpm and peak power at 6,200 RPM. That means that swirl and tumble are compromised below 5,000 rpm (while on the primary cam profile). Compromised swirl and tumble equate to less efficient combustion.

So on the primary cam (below 4,800 RPM or so), we have higher dynamic compression, plus compromised thermal efficiency in the combustion cycle. So it pings..

It shouldn't ping...

Knock sensors should stop that by reducing spark advance with 91 octane (or less) gasoline. The sensors shouldn't pay any roll at all with 92 or 93 octane fuel.

junktionfet

I agree 100% with the statement that the car shouldn't ping--and I really hope I can get it fixed. Regardless of how you and I speculate what's actually going on in the engine on either cam profile, pinging is unacceptable unless it is a rare occurrence.

I hate cars

Yes, but the problem is knock sensors address the isssue after it happens. Ideally the knock sensor should be sleeping as long as premium is used.

Why won't someone take the car to a dyno and drive it normally with a wideband in the tailpipe and watch what happens when it pings. You could, at the minimum eliminate or add "lean mixture" to the list.

Take it to a smog shop and have them analize the exhaust to look at the NOx and see if the EGR is functioning properly.

Also, contrary to popular belief, an extremely rich mixture can make it ping but at that point you will notice the black cloud you're leaving behind you. Last but not least and for the 100th time in this thread, use some 100 unleaded to prove it's detonation so people will stop calling it valve tick.