Houston

05' A/T TL.

Ok, so I just had my tranny rebuilt for the second time and I still have the same damn problem as before the first rebuild! This is all started about 3 years ago when the tranny was overfilled to the point were it spilled it out through a line under the fuse box.

Months later, the tranny would slip into false neutral when coming to a stop. It mainly does this when it's down shifting from 2nd to 1st. It'll slip into false neutral and then shift to first when I'm already completely stopped causing a hard thump. If I come to a slow stop, it'll down shift ok, but when I stop a little quicker, that's when it happens. I usually shift it into neutral then back to "D" and it'll come out of false neutral.

Anywho, I just had the tranny rebuilt again about two weeks ago and it's still doing the same thing. Tranny shop can't figure it out and the dealer checked it out yesterday, but only came up with "internal tranny problem". I've done all the searching possible on my part, but the only thing I've came up with is the shift cable needing to be adjusted. By the way, dealer and tranny shop said they checked it. Fluid is at the right level and it's not pulling any codes. Any ideas?? I don't want to give up on my TL, but this is very frustrating and dangerous as well. I've had it slip into neutral in front of on-coming traffic when I was making a turn and I had my kids with me...

Thanks in advance.

roof2006

Not familiar with the term "false neutral."

Houston

^^ I meant that the gauge still shows it's on "D" while the car behaves as if it's in neutral. It'll still show 2nd gear when I switch to sports shift mode.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

it sure does sound like an internal problem.
Who did you have rebuild it?

what did they see when they were in there?

hofiveo

I am not an expert, but it does seem to be something electrical like a switch, solenoid or something of that nature. Was the torque converter replaced or atleast drained/flushed?

Houston

As ironic as it sounds, Build Right Transmission. Their builder has been doing this for 25 years. I had told the owner, not the builder, what was happening, but I'm sure he thought a standard rebuild would fix the problem. I took the car back in yesterday and I'm only dealing with the builder now. He says he will find the problem because he guarantees all his work.

It has a new double clutch converter and a new high energy clutch kit, so it's definitely not that. As far as an electrical failure, the dealer and the tranny shop checked and everything turned out good. The shop even changed out the 3rd and 4th pressure switches for longevity. When I called about the problem, they asked for the car back immidiately and told me that they didn't want me driving it like that, so I can tell they're serious about taking care of this issue. I should hear something by tomorrow...

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

in for updates.

UA6

Abandon ship! Thats what I did just before my 2nd failure.

ds03

Had a Mazda that did something similar to that a few years back and the dealer wanted to replace the entire trans. It ended up being a faulty computer module... at 10% the cost of the trans rebuild. I'd look at the electronic side of things since the rebuild didn't help at all.

Houston

^^ Actually, I forgot to mention that the reason I had another rebuild done was because the car stopped running completely and not really because of the current problem. It's worth a shot, so I will definitely mention it to the builder. Thx for the info...

Houston

http://www.atra.com/articles/transmi...inal_corrosion

jgj925

^^I'm pretty sure that can happen to a TL, but its a very slim chance, unless of course your battery is corroded. I'd say get all the money you spent at the tranny shop back and get a new car or go to another tranny shop for a second opinion. One rebuild is enough, but two is extreme.

Houston

Well, the battery is semi new, but I was thinking more along the lines of the alternator starting to go bad or something wrong with the charging system. I had the alternator and battery tested and both are good, but from what I understand, an alternator won't always show that it's bad if it's just starting to go bad. Reason I haven't ruled the charging system out, is cause the car seems to loose power when I come to a quick stop and I've even had it stall out before. I'm gonna call the dealer today and see if they tested the charging system, but I doubt it.

I hate cars

There's probably an internal cross leak and the converter clutch is being applied when it shouldn't among other things. If this is happening it will feel like driving a manual and slowing down in gear and forgetting to push the clutch in so that it drags the engine down low enough that it stalls as you complete a stop.

Sounds like they're standing behind their work so that's good. If you have two separate problems, it could easily be a leak on the intake side of the pump, anywhere from the filter to the pump. You might want to make sure they replaced the filter that's not mentioned in the service manual.

Houston

Well, it's only stalled once, but I do feel the RPM's boggle a bit when I come to a sudden stop. Then again, that maybe normal for the mileage it has and haven't never messed with the fuel system.

Also, I believe the internal filter on this tranny is just a small mesh screen iirc. Assuming they never cleaned it, wouldn't it cause problems with more than just one gear? If you're talking about the external filter, then I know for sure it didn't get changed out. I changed it last year though after doing a 3x3 to try and correct this problem, but nothing changed.

I'm gonna take it for a spin this weekend to try and duplicate the problem exactly and I might take some video to post up here.

Houston

Ok, last time I posted on here, my car was at the tranny shop getting checked, but before they could pull the tranny out, I picked the car up. I was planning on taking it back once a got a hold of another car to get around. It's been doing the same old thing, but something else happend this morning.

I was driving to work when all of a sudden, I feel the car start struggling to move. It happened right when the slipping usually occurs. The car was shaking pretty bad like it was loosing compression and the check engine light started blinking. I was thinking maybe a spark plug cracked, broke, or something of that sort. I checked the car when I got off work to get a better idea and it sounds more like an exhaust leak. When the car is idling, it shakes to the beat of the exhaust leak sound. When I start driving, it goes away and comes back when I come to a stop.

Anyways, I took it to an auto parts place to get scanned and this is what came up:

13-1 Left front wheel speed sensor
61-1 Battery voltage malfuction
68-1 Brake switch malfunction
83-1 ECM PCM malfunction
86-1 (???)
P0302 Cylinder 2 misfire
P0304 Cylinder 4 misfire
77-04 (???)

WTF?!?!? I'm ready to trade this muthaf-er in!!

I've tried searching these things, but everything I've read has no conclusion cause the dealers didn't know what the hell was going on. Any ideas???
I get the feeling that whatever the problem is, has been contributing to the tranny slippage. I really think it's been something electrical.

I hate cars

I would pay attention to any code suggesting voltage problems. These cars are very sensitive to low voltage and this will cause all kinds of problems including false codes.

I would make sure they didn't screw the wiring up. Check grounds and check all connections at the fuse box above the transmission. Make sure no wires got smashed between the engine and transmission. Look closely at any wiring near the transmission area.

Check battery terminals, make sure they're tight and clean.

Houston

The car is drivable, so I drove it to work today. I really had no choice, but I'm gonna check all that ^^ and the plugs today when I get home. Is it possible that the PCM/ECM is bad itself and causing all these problems? At this point, it may be multiple problems including electrical and mechanical because it's definitely loosing compression somewhere. It struggles to take off and this is what it sounds like....

I hate cars

You really shouldn't drive the car like that. It has a dead miss and if it's due to ignition problems which it probably is, you're getting raw fuel into the cylinders and into the cats. It washes down the cylinders, meaning it washes off the oil from the cylinders and it will destroy the catalytic converters quickly from overheating them. I can't tell from the video if the noise is an exhaust leak or something clanging together from the vibration or an internal engine problem. I don't want to be the bearer of bad news but that sounds like a hurt piston or at the least a valvetrain problem. Does the noise change from cold to hot? Does it get louder under load? If it were an exhaust leak it would be a single cylinder leak and with our head design that's all but impossible.

When the car is severely down on power, the transmission will shift hard because it's expecting more power and it will seem like the RPMs are going too high for the amount of power it's making but it's only because your foot is in the throttle farther than normal and the rpms are climbing slowly with the power loss.

Onto the part that bothers me, you said the shaking or misfire comes back at idle. Does it go away when you give it some gas, does the car feel normal once you give it throttle? If this is the case it can definitely be compression related. Many times when compression is low you'll have a misfire at idle when cylinder pressures are at their lowest and as soon as you give it throttle and rpms and your dynamic compression and cylinder pressure comes up, the bad cylinder starts firing again normally.

So basically does the engine seem to run completely normal when you're not at idle? Definitely do a compression test. If it's a hurt piston the engine will definitely blow at some point. I would keep a fire extinuisher handy until you know for sure. If a rod exits near the exhaust which it probably will you could end up with an oil fire. How does it sound from under the hood? Last, does it have oil in it and what does it look like?

Is it possible to make another video where you put it in drive and lightly power brake it and another where it's in park and you raise the rpms slowly and then slowly revving it up and down, say 2,500 to idle and back again a few times?

Maybe this is just exhaust banging on something and it sounds worse in the video than in person but if you have that same noise coming from under the hood that is in the video the transmission might be the least of your problems.

Edit: I thought you had checked the plugs already. That's definitely the first thing to do. If it's that loud right now I wouldn't even drive it home, I would attempt to check the plugs at work. If the plug blows out of the head it's going to cost you. Right now you might only be looking at a spark plug change or even just tightening them.

If you want to know which cylinder the noise is coming from you can unplug one coil at a time until the noise goes away or quiets down.

Houston

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You really shouldn't drive the car like that.

I definitely can't leave it here overnight, so I will drive it home after work and then it'll stay at home.

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I can't tell from the video if the noise is an exhaust leak or something clanging together from the vibration or an internal engine problem.

Even though the whole exhaust shakes, it is definitely not hitting anything. I already checked. I can tell it's internal of the exhaust, but not sure if it's more exhaust or compression related.

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Does the noise change from cold to hot?

No, the sound and shaking is constant from cold to hot.

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Does it get louder under load?

Just a bit louder, but not too much. It’s a bit quieter while in park or neutral, but you can still hear it like in the vid.

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you said the shaking or misfire comes back at idle. Does it go away when you give it some gas, does the car feel normal once you give it throttle?

Yes, it starts to quiet down and the vibrations go away at about 30 mph. It’s hard to tell though because I’m sure my driver side axle needs to be replaced, so I can’t tell if it’s the axle or not shaking the car when I give it gas. When I let off the gas going over 40 mph, I won't feel a thing. It will reach 60 mph, it's just slow to get there. I was checking the rpm's too, but again, it’s hard to tell. I'll check again on my way home.

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So basically does the engine seem to run completely normal when you're not at idle?

Almost seems like it, but I will double check today.

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How does it sound from under the hood?

Like nothing is wrong with the car, but you can see the engine shaking. Plus, I think my tensioner is going bad because it was wobbles more than normal. This can cause some electrical issues, right? Loose belt, low voltage?

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does it have oil in it and what does it look like?

I will also check this today.

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Is it possible to make another video where you put it in drive and lightly power brake it and another where it's in park and you raise the rpms slowly and then slowly revving it up and down, say 2,500 to idle and back again a few times?

Yes. Honestly, I took a bunch of video of the engine bay, inside the cabin while on park, inside the cabin while driving, of the exhaust with and without the a/c on, of the rpm's while driving and at different speeds, and so on.... Problem is, it's a cell camera and after replaying the vids, it doesn't really capture what I'm going for... I will try again today.

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Maybe this is just exhaust banging on something and it sounds worse in the video than in person

Not the case. It is definitely internal of the exhaust. You can hear it outside the car only by the rear end, but it's loudest in the cabin.


Now, check this out! I went out to my car during lunch to disconnect the battery. I wanted to reset the codes and see if the same ones come back on and I noticed a disconnected ground cable! It’s the one right above the external transmission filter. I really don’t know how long it’s been like that, but I’ve been driving like that… L I’ll try and post an update tonight.

I hate cars

That ground is a huge find. If that's not THE problem, it's definitely A problem.

Houston

^^ It's not the problem....

I checked all the plugs, coils, engine oil, and of course bolted the ground down. I did have the battery unplugged the whole time. Only one plug looked a bit too worn/burnt, so I replaced just the one cause it's only been months since I replaced them all and I didn't want to spend money unnecessarily. The oil was right on the money in qty and color and the coils were visually fine.

It definitely sounds like it's an exhaust leak. I can only hear the sound from outside the car at the rear coming out of the mufflers. Inside the cabin, it's only been the vibrations that I've been hearing/feeling. They stop at 5mph and the axle and rear mount take over the vibrations. I have stiffer mounts and the rear is mounted on backwards. Long story. At idle, it sounds like the vibrations are coming from right underneath the firewall or near the rear catalytic converter, but I can't hear a thing from under the car.

Let's assume it is an exhaust leak.... Why would all these other random codes show up and none to do with the exhaust like O2 Sensor or A/F ratio? Is it possible that the ground somehow damaged the PCM and now it's throwing random codes and causing 2 plugs to have no spark? The exhaust fumes do smell more rich than normal for my car.

I'm dropping it off at John Eagle Acura tomorrow after work, so I'll have more info by Friday afternoon.

Houston

I'll load some vids tomorrow....

Houston

Check out how much it shakes inside the cabin when it's idling.... then see how it changes when I take off driving at 0:57....

I hate cars

Those plugs are crap. Very bad idea to use those. They're not your problem but you're much better off using stock or even the $1.50 regular plugs that I do. I have an idea of the problem, ill post back in the morning.

You really should arm yourself with some basic info so the dealer can't rip you off. I would at least pull the plug off of one coil at a time with the engine running until you find one that makes no difference in idle. At least you'll know which cylinders have problems.

Houston

Yup, I know they're crap. I had the NGK Iridiums, but needed to replace the plugs immidiately and was on a budget, so I decided to go with those for meanwhile. I actually forgot I had those in there. The single one I replaced yesterday is NGK IR. I'll change the rest later.

Are you saying I should pull just the coil off or the coil & plug?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Hope you get to the bottom of it, Ricardo

I hate cars

Just the electrical connector on the coil. When you unplug a coil, the idle should get rougher since you shut that cylinder down. When you find the bad cylinder(s), unplugging the coil will have little to no effect since that cylinder is essentially shut down already. That's how you find out which cylinder is giving you the problems.

I hope I'm wrong but one of those plus look like you may have a potential compression loss. Hopefully this is all just an ECU or grounding issue.

Houston

That ^^ test came in very handy! I did it after work and only one connector made no difference when I unplugged it. It was the rear center chamber that wasn't firing. The same one that I changed the plug out on. The above picture with the two plugs... well the one on the right was the one I replaced. I swapped that coil pack with another and did the test again... It's the coil pack that isn't good!

I called the dealer and rescheduled for monday, so that I can change the coil pack, reset the PCM, and see what happens first. I know from experience that those ground wires make a hell of a difference, but I didn't think one was disconnected. I'm gonna replace the coil later and report back.

Slpr04UA6

Thanks to IHC again! Great info!

Houston

Ok, I replaced the iginition coil and reset the PCM.. Results: No more codes and the all chambers are firing... thx to IHC...
The idle isn't exactly smooth, but substancialy smoother than before. I used a Hitachi coil, which I got for 50 bucks, and I'm gonna end up replacing all the rest and replacing the plugs. Too bad the neutralizing is still there...

YeuEmMaiMai

On cars were it is easy to get to the injectors, you can unplug those so you are not dumping fuel into the cyl...

I hate cars

Not so easy to do on the TL. It's not bad for it with the small volume of fuel at idle and usually just a few seconds with the coil disconnected.

Houston

^^True. It only takes a second to notice the difference in idle. I didn't even unplug them all the way. I just slid it half way down and pushed it right back on.

cdp5095

I was having the same problem in my 04 tl. Mechanics were saying it was my transmission for into (N) when coming to a stop. I took it to the acura tl dealership and it appeared be the accelerator sensor that was bad. after changing it havent had the problem since. its been 4 months now.

I hate cars

Glad you got at least the engine part fixed.

The good thing is it's on the transmission shop to fix the transmission. Don't let them push you around, they have to fix the problem. As long as the fluid level is ok, the shift indicator does not go in "no mans land", in between D and N, it's on them. The throttle sensor is something to check but if the rpms go up but there's no acceleration it's not caused by this sensor.

Almost forgot, change your oil or at least smell it for fuel contamination. It sounds like it has been running for a while with no ignition on that one cylinder and fuel will make it into the oil. Good luck.

Houston

Wish it was the APP sensor, but I changed it less than a year ago and it didn't fix this problem. It's really hard to pinpoint the exact time that the nuetralizing will happen, but from what i've seen and felt, I really doubt it's mechanical. I'm thinking more along the lines of pressure or electrical related.
The problem with the transmission shop is that their main puller got injured and will be out for months. Now they have a young buck taking his place. I spoke to him and this guy was clueless, so now I'm afraid to bring it in... I guess the builder is the one that really matters, but I hate sloppy work period. Also, I need to find another car first so I won't be rushing them.

Good idea on the oil. I'll check it during lunch and I'm gonna try to post some vids of the neutralizing tonight.

JuniorPhan

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

The last time I physically saw Ricardo was at a burger meet in like 2015 or 2016.
he was still rockin the TL. that means he either got the tranny fixed or swapped in a new one.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Ricardo the real OG