harddrivin1le

Your opinion may very well have merit.

The problem diminishes once the brakes get hot (or very warm). I've had them "groan" for more than 20 minutes worth of driving (starting from a cold start). That's just un-sat...

I've had maybe 20 new vehicles in my lifetime (~ half of which were performance cars) and not one had brakes that sounded like this. The Camaro had two different high performance after-market pads installed on it and the brakes were still quiet as a church mouse.

I went on the Tire Rack's site. They offer NO after-market pads for the TL-S. (I was planning on buying some after-market pads and installing them myself.)

Then I went on Del Ray Acura's site (they have full online parts catalogs) and noticed that the TL-S uses DIFFERENT CALIPERS than the '04 - '06 6 speed manual/Brembo TLs.

Apparently the '04 - '06 Brembo pads won't fit the '07+ TL-S Brembo calipers. That sucks, since I was going to ask the dealer to install those instead of new TL-S pads.

I have mixed feeling about this car. The brakes in particular are a let down. RL rotors and pads were the way to go with the TL-S.

kosstick

I HAVE THE EXACT Same problem. If I apply light pressure on the brake it makes a horrible noise also when I release it. I find myself at times quickly releasing the brake so there wont be any noise..


Should I take it to the dealer and get new pads anyway ?

Smoothie97

You can try, but dealer will claim nothing is wrong and tell you that the sound is normal since the Type S uses high performance brakes.

Here is a good question: For the 07 and 08 non-Type-S guys, do any of you experience the problem? From a stop, slowly let off on the brake...hear anything? Sounds like a grunt.

KeithL

At slow speed the brakes will make a slight creak, as it appears the smooth gripping of the pads onto the rotors at the last few feet before stopping become a more intensive grip I suspect causing the noise. Mine is mild and I don;t mind it as much as the damn dusting. These are making the 03 G35 brakes look clean. I keep looking into third party pads, but can't find anything where people say it dusts less than the Brembros. Guess thats why the Type-S has dark wheels!

harddrivin1le

My dealership has acknowledged the problem; the car is going in a week from tomorrow for a rotor resurfacing and new pads (front only). The tech said he's "never" heard another TL-S with brake noise. Maybe that's B.S...

Maybe it will still make the noise...

I drove an '07 standard TL/automatic. Those brakes were quiet as a church mouse and I preferred their feel over the Type S Brembos. There wasn't much of a difference in stopping power, either.

S power

The never ending Type-S problem. I come to a stop, it groans. I let of the brakes to go, it groans. My valve chatters like some midget playing thumb-tacks in my engine compartment. I go over a slight bump, I hear monkeys playing with bowling balls in the trunk. Im tired of dealer saying that it's "normal." Thier favorite default word.

I guess I have to suffer the loss and get another car. Thanks Acura, for producing a piece of shit car. Sorry to the one that love thiers.


Anyhow, I believe for one, it is the brake pad. Being too aggresive for normal everyday driving condition. I dont mind experimenting with different pads if it wasn't for the brembo-type pads with cost almost $200 for a set. Forget that! And two, the brake distibution is too much on the front.

harddrivin1le

I concur that it's the pad. They ARE too aggressive and were a band aid substitute for the larger RL brakes that SHOULD have been fitted to the TL-S.

The problem is that I can't find any replacement pads for '07 - '08 TL Type S cars. I'd spring for the pads myself if I could find some decent aftermarket pads for it.

I checked Del Ray Acura's parts lists and the '04 -'06 6 speed TL Brembo calipers assemblies (not including the pads) are DIFFERENT PART NUMBERS. The pads are also different part numbers.

The Tire Rack lists multiple replacement pads for the '04 - '06 6 speed cars and not a single one for the '07 - '08 TL.

I think the brake distribution is reasonably good, though. You should have seen my '06 V6 Accord 6 speed coupe. It felt like the front brakes were doing ALL of the stopping. Modulation on that car sucked, too.

My '04 Accord V6 EX automatic sedan's brakes were simply under-sized...The car had no real stopping power - even after I installed 225/55 Pirellis.

S power

Although I still believe that its the pad, Lexus, Bmw, Mercedez also utilized these types of aggressive pads(the ones that turns your rim black in one day). And from experienced, non had any noise issue.

Even with the Brembos on the type-S, I don't find it to be a performance upgrade rather just for looks and name. I have to apply more pressure to get a good braking. Most of it is comming from the hard downshift on the transmission . All of my previous car before , I just barely tap the brakes and it gave me whiplash and there was no fancy brembos or any high-end braking system on them.

I found some EBC pads with decent price and they are listing it by rotor size, so I guess as long as it is 12.2" it will work? Maybe they will do they same since it is" performance" pads. Heck, I'm thinking of putting some aggresive pads for the rear 1st to kinda even it out. Since they're cheaper.

harddrivin1le

You can't base pad selection on rotor size. The pads must be listed as being compatible with the specific model in question (e.g. '07 - '08 Acura TL Type S).

EBC presently lists no pads for the '07 and '08 Tl Type S (though they do list them for base model TL cars).

http://ebcbrakes.iwebcat.com/_Member...27369&hdnSts=0

The only way of knowing whether or not the other cars use the same type of pad is to compare the material(s) of the pads themselves. There are many types of "high performance pads."

People on the board got all over me when I told them that these Brakes are nothing special and that the brakes on my 1999 Z28 Camaro were significantly more powerful - especially at elevated speeds.

The Type S brakes would ultimately outperform the "regular" TL brakes, as they would be less likely to fade during repeated hard stops. Most people don't drive these cars that way and I agree with you that there's little to no difference in stopping power between the two during "normal" driving conditions. I also agree with you that the 4 pistons Brembos are mostly about marketing. 2 piston sliding calipers on the front with Acura RL rotors all around (12.6" front and 12.2" rear) would have yielded MUCH better braking performance and would have been CHEAPER to build!

S power

I didn't use EBC website, but regular parts supplier i.e. autopartsauthority.com. They would list them as to rotor sizes. I believe the only one's that have the 12.2" rotors are the type-s?

harddrivin1le

I guess you aren't reading/understanding what I'm telling you.

Both the '04 - '06 6 speed TL cars and ALL '07 - '08 TL Type S cars uses Brembo calipers with 12.2" rotors.

But the calipers are DIFFERENT (different assembly part numbers, per Del Ray Acura's site). The pads are also DIFFERENT (different part numbers).

http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/catdisplay.jsp

The pads are different enough where the Tire Rack lists SEVERAL aftermarket replacements for the '04 - '06 6 speed cars and none whatsoever for the '07 and '08 Type S cars. They'd list the same pads for all of those models if they fit them all.

In all likelihood, the pads are not physically interchangeable.

It's also worth noting that a given size rotor (e.g. 12.2") can accommodate a large variety of pad and caliper sizes.

I won't buy any pads for this car until them listed specifically for it (i.e. 2007 Acura TL Type S).

Bearcat94

I've found the past couple of days, that I can *make* my brakes "groan" or "creak". Reading this tread the occurance of this "groan" or "creak" matches what other posters have said.

This "groaning" or "creaking", however, never occurs when I drive normally.

Bearcat94

First a disclaimer: I may not correctly understand the sound described as "creaking" or "groaning". Further, I may not correctly understand the circumstances under which "creaking" and "groaning" occur. I have read the whole thread and I *think* I correctly understand the sound and the circumstances, but it is an interpretation of others' posts and therefore uncertain.

Assuming, I do understand, I gotta say "It's normal and it's your driving/braking style, more than anything else."

I have puposely created this sound in my '07 TL-S, my '06 Impala (I can make this one "groan" WAY louder than the '07 TL-S) and my '02 TL-S. I can create this sound at will, under low speed stops and under initial start from a full stop.

However, when driving/braking in a way that *I* consider normal, there is no "creaking" or "groaning".

I have a kind of "conceptual understanding" of why this happens, but no technical understanding to describe it.

harddrivin1le

I have owned approximately TWENTY brand new cars since 1986; not one of which had any brake noise. My '99 1LE Camaro was fitted with two different types of high performance, aftermarket pads and they were also silent.

Summarily, this is the ONLY car I have owned (or driven within the past 15 years or so) that has brake noise of any sort. So please don't tell me that this is "normal" because it's not.

These brakes "groan" when they are cold and when coming to a COMPLETE stop. The problem diminishes once they get some real heat into them. There is no issue with "rolling stops" - no matter how slow the roll might be and regardless of temperature.

IMO, Acura is using an overly aggressive pad in an attempt to compensate for undersized brakes. Check the TL-S rotor sizes relative to vehicle weight. EVERY other competitor offers significantly larger rotors.

A lowly Nissan Maxima has larger brakes than an Acura TL-S and the Maxima is a cheaper car in a lower market segment.

http://www.nissanusa.com/maxima/specifications.html

Brakes
12.60" vented front discs/11.50" rear disc brakes

The TL-S's discs are 12.2"F/11.1" R

The TL-S SHOULD have used the RL's rotors (12.6" F/12.2" R) with more reasonably pads.

drdr

Does the Maxima have better braking performance than the TL?

The TL-S has better braking than the G35 and the IS350, not to mention the Maxima. Looks like the tires were equivalent.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...d/02073car.pdf

R&T didn't comment on how loud the brakes were.

harddrivin1le

That depends on how limited your definition of "braking performance" is. (I'm tempted to label your definition as "quite limited.")

Most modern cars are capable of locking all 4 wheels at speeds of 80 mph or below, which means the results of such tests are largely dictated by tire traction and ABS algorithms. Furthermore, one or two stops from those speeds generally aren't enough to invoke fade. So the results printed by ROAD AND TRACK only tell small part of a much larger story.

Braking from higher speeds and/or hard braking on multiple occasions bring a whole new term to the definition of "braking performance."

For two cars of similar weight (e.g. Acura TL-S and Maxima) fitted with comparable rubber, the car with the larger rotors is likely to have the ultimate advantage - even if swept area is the same.

Why is that?

Because a larger rotor has a longer braking moment arm (the distance from the wheel centerline to the brake pad's mid point). That's a mechanical advantage. Larger rotors also tend to be heavier, which means they have a greater capacity to absorb (and hence, dissipate) heat. That's a thermal advantage.

Remember that the area of a circle (e.g. brake rotor) is pi X R squared. Thus, what appears to be a "small" difference in rotor size can actually be much larger.

Does that answer your question or do you want some more?

Bearcat94

Logically, by far, the VAST majority of the miles drive by TL and/or TL-S owners on the standard brakes are driven in normal city and highway driving.

In those driving conditions a one-time 60 - 0 or 80 - 0 "emergency" stop is more "braking performance" than most of them will ever even need. And in those situations, the TL is as good or better than it's common rivals.

Anything beyond "normal" driving conditions is pointless speculation for an exceptionally limited number of uninterested people. Why uninterested? Because they wouldn't be running the stock brakes where conditions required "high performance" systems in the first place.

harddrivin1le

Your argument makes NO SENSE for a car that is marketed as a PERFORMANCE CAR.

Take a look at the size of the rotors the TL-S's direct competitors are running. They are ALL significantly larger.

The TL-S should have rotors that are about the same size (again, based on rotor AREA) as the IS350, the BMW 5 series and the Infiniti G35. Those cars all weigh about the same as the TL-S and offer similar straight line performance.

12.5" or larger rotors on all four corners is now THE STANDARD for vehicles in that market segment.

Example:

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5/528iSedan/techdata.htm

BMW 528i (base model)

230 HP
3500 pounds
12.8" front rotors; 12.6" rear rotors

harddrivin1le

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5/535iSedan/techdata.htm

BMW 535i

Same weight as a TL-S automatic and similar performance to a TL-S 6 speed MT.

BRAKES:

Brakes
Front - diameter 13.7 inch
Rear - diameter 13.6 inch

Area = pi X R squared

Compare the difference in total rotor area between that 5 series and a TL-S.

It's not even close, yet the cars are very similar in terms of weight and acceleration and top speed.

harddrivin1le

http://www.infiniti.com/g_sedan/specifications.html

Infiniti G35 Sport:

13" Front; 13" Rear


http://www.lexus.com/models/IS/detai...fications.html

Lexus IS350

13.15" Front; 12.2" rear


The only way a TL-S owner can "justify" the size of the rotors is by hiding behind brand loyalty. The rotors are CLEARLY under-sized, relative to the competition.

This would have looked much better for the TL-S:

Front: 12.6"; Rear: 12.2"

Thats the size of the Acura RL's rotors...

Bearcat94

Unless you actually live in the real world.

Excluding your fruitless pad break-in(s), how many times have you stopped from more than 80 to 0 repeatedly since you've owned your TL-S?

How many people do you know that have?

Anybody doing so on a regular basis is tracking their car and dollars-to-doughnuts, NOT running the OEM pads and rotors. Of the 80,000+ TL/TL-S sold per year that is a very, very small number of cars that require the "performance" you desire so much, but will probably never use.




Don't tell me you still believe that Nike's make you run faster, Top Flite golf balls fly farther and that smoking Marlboro's makes you real man.

The Mazda6 (Zoom Zoom), the BMW 328 (all 230 Crank HP of it), the Saab 9-3 (Born From Jets, you know), the Toyota Avalon ( ), the Buick Lucerne ( 2x), the Chrysler 300 (you almost bought one of these butt-ugly things didn't you - LOL), the Lexus ES350 and the Lincoln Zypher have ALL been called "sports sedans" in various (internal and external) publications. You believe those too?


Uhmmm, why is that again? You know what R&T showed. It's intellectually dishonest to pretend you don't. Is that how you got your BSME?

You know R&T showed Swept Area per Ton of the TL-S to be similar or better than the Inifinity and IS. You also know that the TL-S brake performance, was as good or better also.

More brake could improve performance, but is it necessary in the real world?

Adding improved brake adds little or nothing to the everyday performance need. You said yourself, "Most modern cars are capable of locking all 4 wheels at speeds of 80 mph or below, which means the results of such tests are largely dictated by tire traction and ABS algorithms. Furthermore, one or two stops from those speeds generally aren't enough to invoke fade."

You admit it's enough for the way people normally use it. Now you say, the TL-S needs more brake. What for?

Excluding your fruitless pad break-in(s), how many times have you stopped from more than 80 to 0 repeatedly since you've owned your TL-S?

How many people do you know that have?




Off base again. Why? The TL-S has the Swept Area per Ton (which you've said is very important) and has the brake power to be "capable of locking all 4 wheels at speeds of 80 mph or below", which is fair and relevant real world application.


Which R&T proved to be a lie.




LOOKS!! I thought you had a problem with performance. So which is it? Better for looks or better for performance?



The sad thing is, a man who already knows everything can never learn anything. I DREAD the day when I think I know as much as you think you do.

harddrivin1le

Anyone who has even driven a car with real brakes and applied them hard at real speeds (e.g. 120 MPH) knows that the TL-S's brakes are TOO SMALL for a $39K car that is marketing as a "performance sedan."

R&T proved NOTHING to "be a lie."

One or two stops from relatively low speeds says very little about TOTAL braking performance for reasons explained above (length of brake moment arm and heat absorption and dissipation).

Obviously you are "BRAND-washed" by whatever brand of car you happen to own at the time and are therefore unwilling to view things in an objective manner.

The TL's rotors are SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than the brakes used in ALL of its competitors, not to mention cars that are in a lower class (like the Maxima).

Do you think that ALL of those manufacturers are specifying larger (and more expensive) rotors for no reason?

The TL-S 6 speed is "only" 1 second slower to 60 than a new Corvette. Many think that means the cars are similar in performance. Examine what happens at higher speeds (e.g. 0 - 120 MPH) and it's not even close. The same can be said for brakes.

drdr

Yes, the TL-S and 535i are very similar, except that a 535i with the same options as a TL-S lists for $59000.

For the $20000 you save by getting a TL-S you should be able to afford some nice big aftermarket brakes and rotors. They might even be quieter.

Doesn't look like there are a lot of bolt-on options available yet for larger TL-S rotors, so you might have to have some custom work done, but that should still be possible with a $20K budget.

Modding the TL_S from FWD to RWD to make it even more similar to the 535i, now that might get a little expensive...

harddrivin1le

I noticed that you only addressed the car that costs far more than the TL-S.

The (front wheel drive) Nissan Maxima has larger rotors than the TL-S and costs a lot LESS. Ditto for a measly Mazda (Speed 3) and several other cars.

The TL-S's main competitors (IS350 and G35 sport) also have significantly larger rotors.

Summarily, your response is ridiculous.

harddrivin1le

http://www.nissanusa.com/se-r/specifications.html

The $23,000 Nissan Sentra SE-R has bigger brakes (12.6" F/11.5" R) than an Acura TL-S!

And the Sentra is a whopping SIX HUNDRED POUNDS lighter!

So how can anyone in their right mind claim that the TL-S's brakes are "fantastic," "great," etc?

They aren't. I've had a car with real brakes ('99 1LE Camaro). That car flat out STOPPED at real speeds and even that's marginal by new performance car standards.

harddrivin1le

http://www.subaru.com/shop/specifica...mmand=features

WRX Subaru Sti

Brakes
Brembo® performance brake system. 4-wheel disc, ventilated front and rear. 4-piston front and dual-piston rear calipers. 4-channel, 4-sensor Super Sport ABS with Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD) Front: 12.7 in./Rear: 12.3 in.

Curb weight (manual transmission)
3,351 lbs.


NOTE to "drdr": You'll probably want to drop this "debate" right here, since I'm a walking encyclopedia on this topic, have a mechanical engineering degree, have driven cars with REAL BRAKES at REAL SPEEDS and can post all night long about this...

The TL-S's brakes are "fine" for one or two quick stops from 85 MPH or below. But they are TOO SMALL for any real performance driving and as measured by the standards of the competition, much of which is far LESS expensive.

Honda skimps on brakes and tires. They always have.

harddrivin1le

http://www.nissanusa.com/altima/specifications.html

4 cylinder Altima - (Can be bought new for around $17,000 in this area after discounts)

Curb weight: 3,112 pounds

Brakes
11.7" Front vented disc/11.5" rear disc brakes

That's almost exactly the same as a TL-S in terms of rotor area, yet the car costs roughly half as much and is 500 pounds lighter.

The TL-S will stop better - as long as tire grip is the limiting factor. Throw comparable rubber onto that Altima, drop the anchors on both cars at 100 and the Altima is going to flat out stop better.

harddrivin1le

http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtest...gli-page4.html

VW Jetta GLi (197 HP; 3,353 pounds)


BRAKES
Type: hydraulic with vacuum power assist, anti-lock control, and electronic panic assist
Front: 12.3 x 1.2-in vented disc
Rear: 11.0 x 0.5-in disc

drdr

Actually, I don't have time to respond to everything that you posted. I was just trying to save some effort by going after the low-hanging fruit.

When did I make any value judgements about the brakes on the TL-S? I just provided a link to an objective comparison (Road & Track) of braking in the TL-S, IS350 and G35. The results for these three cars were roughly equivalent.

I understand that larger rotors theoretically have more fade resistance. Did you have some objective data indicating that the fade resistance of these cars is better than the TL-S because of these larger rotors?

Were you aware of the size of the rotors on the TL-S when you purchased the TL-S? Because, honestly, they are pretty easy to see when you look at the car. They are right behind those alloy wheels. You could even get out a ruler and check the size.

If you are spending significant time driving your TL-S at 120 MPH and doing frequent hard braking, you might have bought the wrong car.

That type of driving could also cause your brakes to start making noise.

I'm still wondering why the smaller rotors would make more noise. Wasn't that the point of this thread before you started talking about rotor size?

By the way, have you tried changing the brake pads?

Don't worry, there's not much danger that you will hear from me again.

harddrivin1le

The "OBJECTIVE" comparison you continue to refer to consisted of ONE panic stop from two relatively low speeds.

In NO WAY does that represent how the braking systems in those cars would perform on a road racing circuit and/or while braking from elevated speeds on several occasions in a relatively brief period of time.

I've already explained to you why that is so. You can either accept it as FACT or continue to defend the TL - simply because you own one.

I was fully aware of the rotor size on the TL-S and was aware of the same basic braking package since the debut of the '04 6 speed TLs (which were LIGHTER, made LESS power and came out nearly half a decade ago).

I bought the TOTAL PACKAGE. Thing is, no-one told me that Acura specified overly aggressive pads that are noisy and dusty.

This car SHOULD have used the Acura RL's brakes (12.6" F/12.2" R). It got the engine and the transmission and the TL-S is the faster car. So why not THE BRAKES?

Answer: COST

No, I haven't replaced my brakes. The car has 2,600 miles on it and I don't feel like spending ~ $200 on pads that might not even fit it.

elkayem

Mine doesn't creak but it makes a super high pitch squeeking sound when I stop.

harddrivin1le

I'd rather have the creak (actually more of a groan).

The problem here is THE PADS. Acura specified an overly aggressive pad as a "cheap fix" for what should have been the RL's rotors (12.6" F/12.2" R vs. 12.2" F/11.1" R) and more realistic pads.

Nothing's free. We get to live with more dust, more noise and lower rotor life because Acura didn't feel like giving us brake rotors that would have been roughly the same size as what's available in a $23K Sentra or a $24K Mazda (or the various other, inexpensive, front drive cars I mentioned above).


And yet, they spent money on red footwell "accent lighting," a rear view camera and Brembo calipers.

They could have dumped the Brembos, specified some decent, 2 piston sliding calipers and the RL's brakes for LESS money than what they've got into the current braking system. But then the sales literature wouldn't say "Brembo" and they'd probably sell fewer cars. Sales hype matters more than braking performance, since most people (clearly) don't understand braking performance or the physics behind it.

The Corvette (including the Z51) uses 2 piston sliding calipers. So did my 1LE Camaro. They are inexpensive and EXTREMELY effective when coupled with a decent size rotor.

01tl4tl

elkayem:

That may be the squeeler tabs that warn of low brakes- its attached to the inner pad and contacts the rotor under braking to tell you something is wrong

Check the brakes if you know how- or take it to a shop right away
Waiting cost more if you damage the rotors

harddrivin1le

He has a 2007 TL-S.

If he's already down to the tabs then the pads must wear awfully quickly - in addition to making noises and lots of dust.

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

BlacuraTL-S

iTrader: (3)

my brakes squealed real bad so i complained to acura and they put on new rotors and pads for free...


does anyone know if the RL rotors will fit the TL Type S?????????????

Bearcat94

Christ! What a hypocrite.



Hello Pot, meet Kettle:




Talk about speculation. Prove even ONE of those statements.

Bearcat94

You said:



That’s a lie and you know it. R&T proved it here: http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...car_dp.pdf.pdf



But in case that isn't enough:


The Swept Area per Ton on the TL-S is ABOVE AVERAGE for cars with similar straight line performance, regardless of price.

TL-S = 273 sq. in.
Avg (16 Sport Sedans, incl Audi, BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti, etc, etc) = 270 sq in.

Bearcat94

You said:






The Swept Area per Ton on the TL-S is ABOVE AVERAGE for cars with similar straight line performance, regardless of price.

TL-S = 273 sq. in.
Avg (16 Sport Sedans, incl Audi, BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti, etc, etc) = 270 sq in.

Why do they need bigger Rotors ? Makes no sense.


Then you showed your true motivation:


And I agree, they would have looked HOT! ....... Slotted or Drilled, even better. 2x

Bearcat94

So which is it? They cost too much or they don’t cost too much?


And why do we need the RL brakes again? So you can do multiple, consecutive 120 – 0 stops? Not a good enough reason for me.

Bearcat94

528i Example:

BMW 528i 60 – 0 = 128 ft
Acura TL-S 60 – 0 = 117 ft (that’s best in class, save one, for cars with similar straight line performance and similar market segment).



Wrong Market Segment.

BMW 535i (as tested) = $61,125
Acura TL-S (as tested) = $38,795

GOOD GOD! That’s half again as much.



WOW! I guess that means Big Rotors must cost A LOT!!. Maybe even as much as $50.

See?



Regarding the5-Series “The brakes are impressive, too, and large by industry standards.”

http://www.nctd.com/review-intro.?ReviewID=1463