No CEL on ignition!!!
11-23-2010, 02:47 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
No CEL on ignition!!!
I know a lot of people's complaints are "CEL on" but my problem is, mine doesn't come on!!!! lol
Has anyone ever experienced this with their car, and if so, what did the dealer say the problem was?
My CEL doesnt come on when ignition is on, therefore car won't start (cranks but doesnt start)
It means 2 things...either the ECM isn't getting power from somewhere, or it is fried.
I swapped ECMs with my friend and I got the CEL to come on with my ECM on his car. Couldn't get it on my car with his ECM. Also CEL indicator on the instrument panel is good, bcs I swapped them also.
Ive looked at all fuses and relays...at least all relays that I thought would affect it.
I doubt anyone's ever experienced this, but trying it anyway.
Has anyone ever experienced this with their car, and if so, what did the dealer say the problem was?
My CEL doesnt come on when ignition is on, therefore car won't start (cranks but doesnt start)
It means 2 things...either the ECM isn't getting power from somewhere, or it is fried.
I swapped ECMs with my friend and I got the CEL to come on with my ECM on his car. Couldn't get it on my car with his ECM. Also CEL indicator on the instrument panel is good, bcs I swapped them also.
Ive looked at all fuses and relays...at least all relays that I thought would affect it.
I doubt anyone's ever experienced this, but trying it anyway.
11-23-2010, 02:57 PM
#2
Suzuka Master
Thats a tough one......could it be the actual key switch?
11-23-2010, 03:15 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I have a lot more testing to do, but it take a lot of time..I was in the process today, but my battery ran out, and I need power.
It could be 100 different things..have to look at all the goddamn wiring...I posted this hoping someone experienced it, but I know im not lucky enough to experience common problems..I always get the one of the kind stuff lol
It could be 100 different things..have to look at all the goddamn wiring...I posted this hoping someone experienced it, but I know im not lucky enough to experience common problems..I always get the one of the kind stuff lol
11-23-2010, 09:41 PM
#4
Team Owner
I've never had it happen so I can't be of much help. But I would have to go with the ECU not getting power....
Does the factory demobilizer tie into the ECU and does it prevent the TL from cranking or will it let it crank but not start?
Only other thing I can think of to confirm the power issue until you find the correct wire to test is listen to see if the fuel pump comes on with the first turn of the key before you crank it over. If it's like most cars, the ECU triggers the FP with an oil pressure backup once pressure is achieved.
Again, super vague and generic answers because I have no experience with this.
Definately let us know what you find for future reference and good luck.
Does the factory demobilizer tie into the ECU and does it prevent the TL from cranking or will it let it crank but not start?
Only other thing I can think of to confirm the power issue until you find the correct wire to test is listen to see if the fuel pump comes on with the first turn of the key before you crank it over. If it's like most cars, the ECU triggers the FP with an oil pressure backup once pressure is achieved.
Again, super vague and generic answers because I have no experience with this.
Definately let us know what you find for future reference and good luck.
11-24-2010, 05:02 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I've never had it happen so I can't be of much help. But I would have to go with the ECU not getting power....
Does the factory demobilizer tie into the ECU and does it prevent the TL from cranking or will it let it crank but not start?
Only other thing I can think of to confirm the power issue until you find the correct wire to test is listen to see if the fuel pump comes on with the first turn of the key before you crank it over. If it's like most cars, the ECU triggers the FP with an oil pressure backup once pressure is achieved.
Again, super vague and generic answers because I have no experience with this.
Definately let us know what you find for future reference and good luck.
Does the factory demobilizer tie into the ECU and does it prevent the TL from cranking or will it let it crank but not start?
Only other thing I can think of to confirm the power issue until you find the correct wire to test is listen to see if the fuel pump comes on with the first turn of the key before you crank it over. If it's like most cars, the ECU triggers the FP with an oil pressure backup once pressure is achieved.
Again, super vague and generic answers because I have no experience with this.
Definately let us know what you find for future reference and good luck.
So yes, the immobilizer ties into the ECM, but it is not preventing it from cranking. It cranks, but not start. So that part of it is fine.
It's not gonna start until i see the CEL come on, on ignition.
Fuel pump is also ok.
I was just looking for a short cut, thinking someone had it happen to them and maybe was told what had happened, but not that lucky
11-29-2010, 03:44 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Trending Topics
12-13-2010, 03:09 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Update
Here's an update/fix of the problem....
First I should mention that this happened while driving, as I shifted into 3rd gear. It was a quick initial grind followed with engine shutting down. Everything happened so fast that at the moment I didn't even know what the hell went wrong. I threw the car into 3rd and 4th while it was moving, trying to start it, and all I heard was grind. My fear right away was that something happened with the tranny, which turned out to be true as I later found out. But the car not being able to start, was beyond me. As I said on the first post, upon ignition the CEL wouldn't come on (including alternator light).
The testing included: Swapping ECM with my friend's TL. My ECM showed to be good once I hooked up to his car, and was able to get the CEL and BATT lit on the cluster. Installing his ECM on my car showed the same as my ECM, no CELL & BATT light.
I also swapped clusters, to rule out any malfunction of cluster itself, and that proved to be good as well. Ruled out relays/fuses also.
After extensive testing of almost every single wire hooked to the ECM, I found that Connector D (17 pin) on the ECM, provided some kind of a short while plugged in, and when unplugged, I would see the CEL and BATT.
That seemed as it caused the ECM to completely disable itself. Even the DLC lost its communication with the ECM when I hooked the OBDII scanner and it wouldn't work. That's another indication that ECM was disabled.
Now's when the relief starts to roll in...
Narrowing it down to connector D of the ECM, enabled me to specifically trace wires from that connector to sensors in the engine bay.
This is something that probably no one here has experienced, and at least to me it is the weirdest, strangest thing to ever happen on my car.
After unplugging a few sensors on the engine and checking for voltage, still missing voltage since the ECM was disabled, it hit me, and it hit me hard....
There was definitely something wrong with the tranny, since symptoms of that day clearly indicated so...So I thought, as weird as it may be, if something severely broke inside the tranny, its possible that whatever broke could've hit one of the sensors on the tranny and may have damaged it to the point of causing a short of some kind. Tranny fluid may also be the reason, if the sensor broke and fluid leaked inside the sensor and shorted the terminals. So I jumped into it and disconnected all 4 tranny sensors (3 sensors + reverse lockout) .....Then turned on the ignition, and sure enough CEL and BATT came on. After that, with the ignition on, I plugged them in, one by one, untill I found the one causing the problem.
Turns out, the Speed Sensor (output shaft) is what caused all this. Left it unplugged, and started the car!
At this point, I haven't removed the Speed Sensor yet, but I will take a look at what really may have happened to it once I remove it.
Anyway, I know I could've just wrote a simple update saying "problem fixed, it was the output shaft speed sensor", but I figured including some details would be better, just in case someone else ever experiences this.
So anyone of you with an MT, if tranny breaks on you, and you have the same symptoms as I did, with the car not starting, CEL not coming on with ignition, BATT light not coming on...it may very well be exactly what I described, or even another sensor on the tranny. These should be the first things to rule out, since it might save a lot of trouble.
First I should mention that this happened while driving, as I shifted into 3rd gear. It was a quick initial grind followed with engine shutting down. Everything happened so fast that at the moment I didn't even know what the hell went wrong. I threw the car into 3rd and 4th while it was moving, trying to start it, and all I heard was grind. My fear right away was that something happened with the tranny, which turned out to be true as I later found out. But the car not being able to start, was beyond me. As I said on the first post, upon ignition the CEL wouldn't come on (including alternator light).
The testing included: Swapping ECM with my friend's TL. My ECM showed to be good once I hooked up to his car, and was able to get the CEL and BATT lit on the cluster. Installing his ECM on my car showed the same as my ECM, no CELL & BATT light.
I also swapped clusters, to rule out any malfunction of cluster itself, and that proved to be good as well. Ruled out relays/fuses also.
After extensive testing of almost every single wire hooked to the ECM, I found that Connector D (17 pin) on the ECM, provided some kind of a short while plugged in, and when unplugged, I would see the CEL and BATT.
That seemed as it caused the ECM to completely disable itself. Even the DLC lost its communication with the ECM when I hooked the OBDII scanner and it wouldn't work. That's another indication that ECM was disabled.
Now's when the relief starts to roll in...
Narrowing it down to connector D of the ECM, enabled me to specifically trace wires from that connector to sensors in the engine bay.
This is something that probably no one here has experienced, and at least to me it is the weirdest, strangest thing to ever happen on my car.
After unplugging a few sensors on the engine and checking for voltage, still missing voltage since the ECM was disabled, it hit me, and it hit me hard....
There was definitely something wrong with the tranny, since symptoms of that day clearly indicated so...So I thought, as weird as it may be, if something severely broke inside the tranny, its possible that whatever broke could've hit one of the sensors on the tranny and may have damaged it to the point of causing a short of some kind. Tranny fluid may also be the reason, if the sensor broke and fluid leaked inside the sensor and shorted the terminals. So I jumped into it and disconnected all 4 tranny sensors (3 sensors + reverse lockout) .....Then turned on the ignition, and sure enough CEL and BATT came on. After that, with the ignition on, I plugged them in, one by one, untill I found the one causing the problem.
Turns out, the Speed Sensor (output shaft) is what caused all this. Left it unplugged, and started the car!
At this point, I haven't removed the Speed Sensor yet, but I will take a look at what really may have happened to it once I remove it.
Anyway, I know I could've just wrote a simple update saying "problem fixed, it was the output shaft speed sensor", but I figured including some details would be better, just in case someone else ever experiences this.
So anyone of you with an MT, if tranny breaks on you, and you have the same symptoms as I did, with the car not starting, CEL not coming on with ignition, BATT light not coming on...it may very well be exactly what I described, or even another sensor on the tranny. These should be the first things to rule out, since it might save a lot of trouble.
Last edited by Opel; 12-13-2010 at 03:14 PM.
12-13-2010, 07:07 PM
#12
Team Owner
Very good info and follow up! You've got to love it when you go deep into the advanced troubleshooting. I'm sure it wasn't fun at the time but it has to feel good to get this solved on your own. I'm sure it will help someone out who's about to burn the car after trying everything lol.
12-13-2010, 07:23 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
12-14-2010, 02:04 AM
#14
Good job. This might of been one fix that the Autoenginuity software that I have may come into play. It can monitor every sensor that the car has and will give you a live reading on whether or not the sensor is withing working range.
If you ever need to use it for some advanced troubleshooting then let me know
If you ever need to use it for some advanced troubleshooting then let me know
12-14-2010, 11:45 AM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Libert,
It wouldn't have worked. Nothing would've worked.
Like I mentioned, the ECM was disabled. DLC was disabled, and they would not communicate. Every engine sensor ties to the ECM, and the only way to access them is through the ECM.
It wasn't one of those cases where one sensor goes bad, and a simple diagnosis such as what you mentioned would find it. The sensor going bad is what screwed up the whole system so I couldn't be accessed at all to begin with.
No HDS, Scanner or anything of such would've worked.
It wouldn't have worked. Nothing would've worked.
Like I mentioned, the ECM was disabled. DLC was disabled, and they would not communicate. Every engine sensor ties to the ECM, and the only way to access them is through the ECM.
It wasn't one of those cases where one sensor goes bad, and a simple diagnosis such as what you mentioned would find it. The sensor going bad is what screwed up the whole system so I couldn't be accessed at all to begin with.
No HDS, Scanner or anything of such would've worked.
10-25-2012, 08:48 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Opel, Just want to thank you for the helpful troubleshooting you provided. My cousin encountered the same problem and I was able to use your tips as a guide line for my troubleshooting.
it was my cousins 04 6spd as well.
sry to revive thread.
it was my cousins 04 6spd as well.
sry to revive thread.
10-25-2012, 10:42 AM
#17
Very good info and follow up! You've got to love it when you go deep into the advanced troubleshooting. I'm sure it wasn't fun at the time but it has to feel good to get this solved on your own. I'm sure it will help someone out who's about to burn the car after trying everything lol.
This is where I'm @. Mine is a auto transmission tho, so not sure if this would be my problem, but I am having a similar problem where the battery was drained after 2 days and the car cranks and cranks but won't start.
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