I hate cars

I won't get into the other stuff that's happened over the course of the week with the dealer ordering the wrong parts and the 100 other things that went wrong, I'm too disgusted right now.

Long story short I got it together, fired it up and it sounded great. A few minutes later not so great. Once the idle came down to normal I have this clattering/knocking/squeaking sound from the timing belt area. I pulled the serpentine belt off hoping the noise would be gone. Nope, I'm not that lucky. So I pull it all apart, put the balancer back on and fired it up with the bare timing belt exposed. After looking at the belt alignment with every pulley and seeing the side of the belt showed no signs of rubbing I pulled out the stethoscope.

The brand new idler pulley is making noise and getting hot enough that it's transferred rubber from the belt to the pulley when the engine was shut off. Since the bolt attaches to the ID you can't over tighten it and cause this problem. The noise disappears completely at 1,000 rpm. I'm so incredibly pissed right now. Now it has to sit for another few days before I can get another idler and I have no idea how to take the tension off since I replaced the tensioner and just pulled the pin once it was assembled. I've literally considered putting it in 1st gear and set it on the rev limiter for as long as it takes to break and then set it on fire.

Anyone ever have a bad brand new idler before?

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

There's a TSB for the idler, a shim is supposed to be installed behind it against the block.

I did mine twice as a result of this, once and then I had a noise coming from the belt area and the second time I ordered the shim for my '05 and put it in.

The TSB covers all years, 05-09 TLs. Essentially what happened is Honda stated in the TSB that the idler pulley mounting surface (the block) is angled and made shims for the different blocks that are tapered to give it a flat surface for the idler.

I would imagine if you didn't have the noise before maybe there's already a shim under your old idler?

If not a kit can be ordered from one of the dealer sites like delray, but it comes as a kit with an idler, timing belt and timing belt drive pulley. When I did mine I used the new idler and timing belt drive pulley, my step-dad works as a senior tech at a dealership for a different make of car and mentioned that if they put those parts in the kit that they're there for a reason so I went ahead and used the timing belt drive pulley, but I re-used the timing belt I had installed when I did the job the first time though so I have an extra one laying around.

I also use a torque wrench for anything that has a bearing in it, I think it's just good practice for some of those parts especially in an area as critical as the timing belt. I replaced the idler bolt as well, I have a tendency to replace bolts and nuts lol .. the idler bolt is pretty thin and under a lot of tension from that belt.

Your auto-tensioner can be reset once it's removed, I didn't have the ability to reset mine in my front yard so I ordered another one and then reset the other new one (had like 4k miles on it) at an auto hobby shop on the military base here.

I just put a rag over it and put it in a vice then took my time resetting it, I read to do it slowly so I took about 3 minutes to reset it and re-installed the pin. Still have the pin by any chance?

Links to all the TSBs are in the garage, in one of those threads.

I also line up my timing marks against the block instead of going off the timing belt covers. No clue why the service manual recommends lining them up to the covers but if you notice there is a difference between where the mark is on the rear cover and where it is on the block.

Mine was lined up dead-on with the block marks and was still right on it after I set in the timing belt and rotated through all the cylinders 6 times to set the belt in. When I re-installed the covers the front one is on, but the rear one makes it look like the rear cam pulley isn't lined up correctly.

My step-dad makes tech-tech videos for another make and when I asked him about it he said he had no idea why they recommend to line it up to the plastic timing belt covers and agreed with me that lining it up to the block is the right way to do it.

There are two marks for TDC on cylinder #1 on the cam pulleys, one towards the center and one right on the tooth. It's a lot easier to line it up to the mark on the tooth.

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

^good info

ez12a

it makes me wonder what the heck happened to the mold to make the 05-08 engines different from an 04.

i see in your other thread that you put the old idler back on with no change. Perhaps the shim dropped somewhere?

I hate cars

I feel like one of the noobs starting multiple threads on the same subject. Maybe one of the mods would be nice enough to merge them. I was working on it for nearly 18hrs straight and I think I was a little delusional toward the end.

Are every one of these supposed to have a shim? I surely didn't notice anything when I took it off. That's why I was wondering if it didn't make the noise before I pulled it apart, wouldn't that mean it doesn't need a shim?

I looked at every pulley and every inch of the belt while it was running and I don't see it rubbing. The only one that's really close is the crank pulley, the belt seems to ride toward the crank sensor side.

So what is the opinion of how it's perfectly silent at 1,000rpm. It's like a switch, it goes away completely. All of the videos I've seen have the noise getting worse with more rpm. I've never seen one that just disappears.

The cam marks were as perfect as could be. I rotated it many times before I even started putting the covers on. The engine runs great.

I hate cars

I've never come so close to taking a sledge hammer to a car. If I had not mentioned burning the car on the internet, I would be collecting insurance money already. This is fucking insane. I've never had a problem with a timing belt install in my life. All parts are new. Is there really a machining problem with this piece of shit? Did replacing the water pump throw the tensioner off? This is bullshit. I'm down to replacing parts to troubleshoot this bitch. I feel like I've done 3 timing belts already not to mention the time lost.

The tensioner tries to jump while running. It's not visible but it was very obvious when I was using an extension on the center nut of the pulley to my ear. Now I'm waiting on the fiancée to get home so I will have a car so I can buy a vice to reset the tensioner and try out my old tensioner pulley. I would have gotten a rental car if I had known it would take this long to do a simple timing belt. Whatever happens the next time I fire it up, it's getting driven that way until it fails or gets quiet.

gwiffer

iTrader: (7)

You purchased an OEM Honda idler pulley from your dealer and are having problems with it?

The TSB also affects 04?-07 Honda Accord V6s; the oil pump was machined improperly from the factory. The usual symptom is squeaking or a whirling from the timing belt area at idle.

I hate cars

Now that makes the most sense because the noise is loudest from through the fender well and under the car. Is this just an annoyance or will it cause eventual failure? There were some noises it was making tonight that I really don't like.

I put the engine covers on and it cuts down on the noise significantly. By the time I put the timing belt covers on, the side and under body cladding that will be in on Tuesday, the wheel on, and the hood down, I doibt I'll be able to hear anything. But still, knowing it's there is going to bother the crap out of me. Fortunately it's got about 4 hours of runtime with the cam covers off and I see no abnormal wear patterns on the belt or the pulleys so I guess I'll let it go.

I'm very interested in the oil pump issue.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

good info

nfnsquared

Which TSB is this? I'm not aware of one for TL oil pumps...

I'm aware of TSB 08-031 which is for the TB chirp on 05-09 TLs, but it has nothing to do with the oil pump.

gwiffer

iTrader: (7)

It's TSB 08-045 Chirp From the Timing Belt Area (Issued June 28, 2008) for the Honda Accord; I can't confirm the Acura TSB for TLs.

ZOMGVTEK

My 02 Accord V6 chirped from the timing belt area. I'm thinking a lot, possibly even most J series have this problem.

That car also had a BAD rattling from the timing belt area, which is why I replaced the belt belt, pump, tensioner, and idler at 60K. It did fix the noise, but both before and after the replacement something was screwed up that caused a wave of slack to go around. It was almost like the belt was off 1/2 a tooth or something, and the tensioner was not able to keep tension on the belt all the time, so it rattled around. This is what was making the noise, and after the replacement it was still rattling, just didn't make any noise so I just left it. Drove it ~25K problem free before selling it.

Oddly enough, it was making a grinding noise around 2K RPM under very specific loads. It sounded like a really bad bearing. I replaced the timing belt idlers, and pulled the drive belts, yet the noise persisted. I gave up trying to find that one and assumed something would fail and then I would be able to find out what it was. Thousands of miles later the noise just went away and it never came back...

I'm not sure what kind of magic is going on under the timing belt cover on my TL, but my previous J experience has me a bit leery of pulling the covers and running into a trainwreck. Apparently this kind of thing happens.

Turbocoop

iTrader: (3)

On my last 05 I did the timing belt with all new honda parts and I know for a fact there was no shim involved under the idler. I did have a bolt break off in the block which resulted in an extra 7hrs of work, but once I got it fixed and started up there was no noise at all...

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

I did my TB without the shim on my accord and its fine. That shim was like 150 bucks. while my whole TB kit from amazon was 200. wtf man. Those shim should be free

jenniva

You did it yourself? are you a mechanic? how hard of a job would you say it is? I have an 08' TL with heavy oil leakage, per dealer; only 71,000 miles; dealers asking for 1,800 to fix. If it's a doable job, I want to do it myself. Any tips are welcome. Thank you.

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

I did do this myself yes and no I am not a mechanic I'm an electronic tech by trade.

I think difficulty really depends on how patient and mechanically inclined that you are. When I did mine I had never done a timing belt on any other make or model of car before, but with enough reading and attention to detail it can be done yourself.

Where is your leak coming from? Is it oil? If you plan on doing work like this yourself obtaining a copy of the helm's service manual is definitely going to be needed.

jenniva

Thank you. I do have the repair manual, but it's not from helm's. It's the Acura service manual,so I think that's an even better deal. Don't know. They told me the leak was coming from the oil pump and that it is pretty heavy. Asking price for the job is 1,800. No way am I spending that kind of money, but I'm a bit freaked out and I don't want the hot oil to damage my engine. Would you mind starting a thread explaining how to do it? I know it's a lot, but I think the Acurazine community would surely appreciate it. How long did it take you?

I hate cars

Have you ever had to add oil or does it drip when parked?

As it was said, the timing belt at least isn't that hard but you have to be patient. If you're going to be doing the timing belt and oil pump seals, plan it around a 3-day weekend. I could probably do the timing belt in 2-3hrs. In fact, the last time I redid it, it took about 2hrs.

So it's not really about how hard it is but rather about patience and to realize if you're a tooth or more off you stand a chance of bending valves and causing damage. I think people have gotten away with 1 tooth off without mechanical damage but it will run horribly if at all depending on if it's one crank tooth or one cam tooth off. You can easily prevent this by taking your time, installing the belt starting from the crank and going counter clockwise and spinning the engine over by hand a few times to check your work before assembling.

I haven't done the oil pump seals but from what I've read once you have the timing belt and accessories removed it's easy. Most of the labor is in removing the timing belt and components. It sounds like your dealer is charging you full price on both jobs when the oil pump job should be heavily discounted.

nfnsquared

If you don't have oil on the ground after you are parked overnight, they are trying to screw you. There already is an epic thread on TB DIY:

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/122-diy-105k-service-timing-belt-water-pump-spark-plugs-thermostat-%2Apics%2A-784622/

But you only have 71K, you still have at least 30K miles before it's due....

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

I don't know about doing the oil pump seal, seems like a lot of people are asking about that one lately.

The oil pump has 3 or 4 bolts in it on the edge by the driver's side wheel that go through the oil pan and the oil pan mates to the edge of the oil pump and also seals to it.

Which means to do the oil pump seal (which is just Hondabond HT liquid gasket) you'd have to remove the oil pan as well and re-do that seal.

1800 doesn't sound like a price for them to do the timing belt job, oil pump seal and oil pan seal are you sure they were referring to the oil pump seal?

I'd think they'd charge a lot more than that for that job.

That's really not something I'd want to take on as my first job on the car, trying to remove the oil pan, timing belt components and oil pump all at one time and replace the seals on the pump and pan.

I'd be 100% certain that that seal is leaking before going about to try to replace it.

jenniva

you know, I'm inclined to believe you. I will check tomorrow morning. It's one of those times when being a woman sucks. These mechanics try to take advantage of you because they assume you don't know anything about cars or that you won't bother verifying their claim, but thanks for the tip!

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

Its actually by the passenger front wheel lol ..

nfnsquared

If you don't have drops on the ground after parking overnight, then you don't have anything to worry about at this point.

If after doing your check you find no oil drops, I'd go back to the dealer and make sure they know you are no push over. This would be the perfect time to assert yourself (especially being a woman) with their service department:

Ask them to have the mechanic who diagnosed "the leak" come out and point out the leak on your engine and show how he was able to make this diagnosis.

I suspect you'll get a panicked look of surprise and they'll know not to F with you in the future :biggrin"

I hate cars

Yep. They tend to remember the ones that stick up for themselves and question things. My favorite thing in the beginning was to be very passive and just nod my head. I would let them dig themselves in real good and then begin asking questions and then telling them the correct answer. I like to see how people act toward me when they think I don't know anything about cars. I guess it's an integrity check. They know me now and don't try and pull the BS anymore and we have a good relationship.

When the body shop tried to screw me and almost killed me twice I got my insurance agent and a body shop rep to meet me at Acura along with their master tech to sort out who was at fault (they claimed I had a non stock suspension and the Konis and swaybars caused them to put the wrong nut on the ball joint and forget the nut completely on the lower control arm which all came apart while I was driving. I never got mad but I clowned the body shop rep so bad with sarcasm and rhetorical questions that the Acura tech was laughing the whole time and I got his agreeance on every point. I got my way on that one and even got free tires out of it. That's what they get for a potentially fatal couple of mistakes and then acting aggressive toward me and blaming it on shocks and swaybars.

EM2typeflex

good good info on this thread, especially since this is what's on the tl's agenda for things that need to be done.

jevans06

iTrader: (2)

For anyone that is needing to install the Timing belt shim.
Here is the part number for it.
Part # 14559-RCA-305

If you order the entire kit specified in the TSB then you get a brand new timing bellt gear pulley (which does not need to be replaced), and belt for ridicullous cost. Just order the shim and a new timing belt kit.