Justnspace vs J32/J37
#321
Moderator
Chapter Leader (South Florida Region)
Chapter Leader (South Florida Region)
iTrader: (6)
and of course...it's the rear precat, right? Did you tighten down the bolts in a cross bolt pattern? Might be as simple as loosening all 4 bolts and re-seating it...
I did freak out when he said cut it cut it too...I'm guess it was Manny? I guessed the tile cutting right!
Glad it's working, CrabsMan.
I did freak out when he said cut it cut it too...I'm guess it was Manny? I guessed the tile cutting right!
Glad it's working, CrabsMan.
#324
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
#325
Safety Car
iTrader: (8)
and of course...it's the rear precat, right? Did you tighten down the bolts in a cross bolt pattern? Might be as simple as loosening all 4 bolts and re-seating it...
I did freak out when he said cut it cut it too...I'm guess it was Manny? I guessed the tile cutting right!
Glad it's working, CrabsMan.
I did freak out when he said cut it cut it too...I'm guess it was Manny? I guessed the tile cutting right!
Glad it's working, CrabsMan.
Yeah I didn't know he had spilled coolant fluid all over. So smoke was raising from the cats; smelt like coolant and that's when he told me.
LOL I told you to torque those down before you had place the radiator. My big ass hand could only tighten it so much with the radiator in its way.
Check the rear as well and recheck all your hoses
Glad its running again
The following users liked this post:
rockstar143 (09-07-2014)
#326
Stay Out Of the Left Lane
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SE Mass --- > Central VA --- > SE Mass
Age: 58
Posts: 8,994
Received 1,243 Likes
on
1,030 Posts
It's been a long road. Glad she fired up and ran for you!
#327
Your Friendly Canadian
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Age: 32
Posts: 17,433
Received 1,492 Likes
on
1,050 Posts
Good to see it running again!
Is this the most in-depth repair you've done on the car?
Is this the most in-depth repair you've done on the car?
The following users liked this post:
EvilVirus (09-07-2014)
#330
The DVD-A Script Guy
Yeah baby!!!!! Nice to see if fire up.
I was going to give you crap about never seeing you pan the camera over the engine to get a gander at the red valve covers to prove it wasn't some random TL you fired up. But you've been through enough. I'm sure you will sort out the cat leak in no time. Enjoy it.
I was going to give you crap about never seeing you pan the camera over the engine to get a gander at the red valve covers to prove it wasn't some random TL you fired up. But you've been through enough. I'm sure you will sort out the cat leak in no time. Enjoy it.
#331
Team Owner
Which may be just as well since the pistons should be replaced anyways. Can it run without doing it? Yes. Should it be ran with damaged pistons? No.
I could sit here and attempt to explain combustion chamber theory, how combustion occurs inside the chamber with a thermal video, and how the damage to the top of that piston went through a protective coating on the piston but it'll be tough. That damaged area -small as it may seem- will cause a hot spot and in time will crack. When fuel comes into that combustion chamber it will light the fuel early (before the spark plug fires) and cause pre-ignition. Now instead of lighting off properly at TDC the cylinders that have damage will be lighting off a few degrees before TDC. Your exhaust valves will not be able to scavenge all of the hot gases out because it is designed to withdraw at a certain rate and close to begin the next stroke. So now you have heat that is trying to find any other way out and a damage that is beginning to crack. The crack will leave tiny metal shavings which will rapidly act like sandpaper against your cylinder walls and damage your now very heated piston rings. (That's where the leftover unscavenged exhaust gases will try and go, past the rings.)
What happens when a cylinder ignites before TDC and the other cylinders are firing correctly at TDC? Basically it's putting an opposing force on that cylinder, piston rod, and your crankshaft, twisting it. Now it's slight but now there is increased heat and stress on the bearings on your entire rotating assembly. It's not a matter of if the bottom end will go, it's a matter of when.
I would recommend doing periodic compression checks and invest in a magnetic drain plug. It could be worth going as far as to install an exhaust gas temperature (EGT) gauge to monitor increasing exhaust temps. It's a good way to monitor what may be a bad to worse condition. If your EGTs go from say 650 degrees to 825 degrees you'll know the crack/heat/cylinder wall is getting worse and could pull the motor early and reuse what parts you can.
This is just knowledge I've gathered from being an ASE mechanic, AMP Aircraft Mechanic and now Engineer. Best of luck guys, I'm pulling for ya!
I could sit here and attempt to explain combustion chamber theory, how combustion occurs inside the chamber with a thermal video, and how the damage to the top of that piston went through a protective coating on the piston but it'll be tough. That damaged area -small as it may seem- will cause a hot spot and in time will crack. When fuel comes into that combustion chamber it will light the fuel early (before the spark plug fires) and cause pre-ignition. Now instead of lighting off properly at TDC the cylinders that have damage will be lighting off a few degrees before TDC. Your exhaust valves will not be able to scavenge all of the hot gases out because it is designed to withdraw at a certain rate and close to begin the next stroke. So now you have heat that is trying to find any other way out and a damage that is beginning to crack. The crack will leave tiny metal shavings which will rapidly act like sandpaper against your cylinder walls and damage your now very heated piston rings. (That's where the leftover unscavenged exhaust gases will try and go, past the rings.)
What happens when a cylinder ignites before TDC and the other cylinders are firing correctly at TDC? Basically it's putting an opposing force on that cylinder, piston rod, and your crankshaft, twisting it. Now it's slight but now there is increased heat and stress on the bearings on your entire rotating assembly. It's not a matter of if the bottom end will go, it's a matter of when.
I would recommend doing periodic compression checks and invest in a magnetic drain plug. It could be worth going as far as to install an exhaust gas temperature (EGT) gauge to monitor increasing exhaust temps. It's a good way to monitor what may be a bad to worse condition. If your EGTs go from say 650 degrees to 825 degrees you'll know the crack/heat/cylinder wall is getting worse and could pull the motor early and reuse what parts you can.
This is just knowledge I've gathered from being an ASE mechanic, AMP Aircraft Mechanic and now Engineer. Best of luck guys, I'm pulling for ya!
I don't agree with your EGT theory.
The part about twisting the crankshaft was funny. I think that's the point in most piston engines lol. I know what you meant but it was still funny to me. On a more serious note, detonation and preignition are hard on the bottom end but it's usually the ring lands that let go first. Rarely do you break a crank , especially such a robust forged fully counterweighted crank held in with splayed 6 bolt mains and a built in "girdle".
Most importantly, we can monitor knock (preignition not directly) so if there is no knock, the cosmetic damage to the pistons isn't hurting anything. These engines don't run much in the way of cylinder pressures, and unlike airplane engines, we're coasting or idling as much as we're under load, he will be fine. Welcome to the board, it's good to have a mechanic/ engineer on here.
Good to see Justin got it done. Since I bought a new car, it's hard to keep an interest in the TL. I think my future mods will be limited to the roof rack I've always needed for my mountain bikes. I've had the idea to do a direct injection 3.5 turbo, this seems like the logical evolution.
The following 2 users liked this post by I hate cars:
rockstar143 (09-08-2014),
Sonnick (09-08-2014)
#332
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
IHC
You should hang out in Ramblings and Car Talk.. definitely don't go to the TLX board..
You should hang out in Ramblings and Car Talk.. definitely don't go to the TLX board..
The following users liked this post:
Vlad_Type_S (09-08-2014)
#337
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
#340
Race Director
Meh, drive it like you stole it.
#341
The only reason to run those tests, are if you are unsure.
I am positive I lost compression due to a over-rev.
No need to test for it.
I am positive swapping the heads fixed the lost compression.
No need to test for it.
a test will only confirm my suspicions....
Fucked up engine....
and now its fixed.
so, why test for what I already know?
I am positive I lost compression due to a over-rev.
No need to test for it.
I am positive swapping the heads fixed the lost compression.
No need to test for it.
a test will only confirm my suspicions....
Fucked up engine....
and now its fixed.
so, why test for what I already know?
Last edited by justnspace; 09-08-2014 at 09:16 PM.
#342
Team Owner
The only reason to run those tests, are if you are unsure.
I am positive I lost compression due to a over-rev.
No need to test for it.
I am positive swapping the heads fixed the lost compression.
No need to test for it.
a test will only confirm my suspicions....
Fucked up engine....
and now its fixed.
so, why test for what I already know?
I am positive I lost compression due to a over-rev.
No need to test for it.
I am positive swapping the heads fixed the lost compression.
No need to test for it.
a test will only confirm my suspicions....
Fucked up engine....
and now its fixed.
so, why test for what I already know?
#345
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
The following users liked this post:
rockstar143 (09-09-2014)
#347
runs great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i have an exhaust leak tho.
so, it doesnt sound too great.
it idles perfect at like 800-900 RPM.
its not misfiring like it was before.
No check engine lights related to misfires...
although, a check engine light did come on for the O2 sensors... i'm catless.
will pull the pre-cat tonight to inspect for holes.
i have an exhaust leak tho.
so, it doesnt sound too great.
it idles perfect at like 800-900 RPM.
its not misfiring like it was before.
No check engine lights related to misfires...
although, a check engine light did come on for the O2 sensors... i'm catless.
will pull the pre-cat tonight to inspect for holes.
#351
^it pulls.
remember, I havent driven it for a month or two.
it pulls hard in 2nd, 3rd and 4th! i havent pushed it hard in 5th or 6th.
butt, if you ask me to remember what it felt like before it was broken, I couldnt tell you.
and remember, the goal was to fix the car. if i happened to pick up any additional horsepower, well, that's just a bonus!!
remember, I havent driven it for a month or two.
it pulls hard in 2nd, 3rd and 4th! i havent pushed it hard in 5th or 6th.
butt, if you ask me to remember what it felt like before it was broken, I couldnt tell you.
and remember, the goal was to fix the car. if i happened to pick up any additional horsepower, well, that's just a bonus!!
#352
Team Owner
In regards to compression and the valves smacking the pistons, it has to be 100% if it's running. With the heads and valves replaced, the only thing left of the collision is the pistons. Valves usually bend long before holes are knocked into pistons. If a hole was put in a piston it would have a dead miss no matter how small the hole, not to mention smoke out of the exhuast. The fact that it's running without a dead miss and without looking like a mosquito fogger means it's running 100%, or at least there's nothing wrong related to the overrev.
#353
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Justn has been driving a kia crossover as well.. I'm sure even going reverse.. pulls.
#354
Team Owner
I'm sure the gains will be evident in your first street encounter.
#356
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
#357
Intermediate
I hate cars,
Thanks for the welcome and I'm envious of your 2,300hp GN monster -bad ass! Let me see if I can answer some questions here.
To Justin I (like 6-7 other members) would recommend doing a compression check still just for the peace of mind that nothing happened to your piston rings as a result from all this. It's easy to do and you can even get one from the Loaner Tool programs that Advance Auto Parts and AutoZone offer.
Thanks to the members who gave Justin a hand getting this done. I thought for sure the timing was going to be off upon startup.
Thanks for the welcome and I'm envious of your 2,300hp GN monster -bad ass! Let me see if I can answer some questions here.
You want him to replace the pistons after valve interference? I just skimmed over this, maybe I missed something.
Justin never did do any diagnosing to confirm that this was a valve issue to begin with. No pics of the valves or pistons were ever shown on this thread. Without knowing the extent of the damage there it's hard to come to a conclusion. Anytime metal impacts metal the way it does in a valve to piston strike, those small bits of metal go somewhere and unfortunately have a way of finding the piston rings/lands and scoring the cylinder wall. My explanation of hot spots on that cylinder is extremely hard to explain without equipment like this: CLICK HERE & WATCH VID
Sure it can run okay but long term will have an effect vs. no damage being there at all.
I don't agree with your EGT theory.
This was more of an idea to monitor any increased temps from that cylinder and would have to be placed on the exhaust runner which after reading this thread is far above the OP's expertise. A more practical way is to do a compression check every once in awhile (3-6mos) to be on the safe side. A running engine can have slight compression loss -on the chance anything found its way to the ring lands -and seem fine. Some increased exhaust smoke may not be so obvious to the owner. (There's loose exhaust bolts not tightened down here, for example.)
The part about twisting the crankshaft was funny. I think that's the point in most piston engines lol. Crankshafts rotate and should not twist.
I know what you meant but it was still funny to me. On a more serious note, detonation and preignition are hard on the bottom end but it's usually the ring lands that let go first. I mentioned the rings first and you're right, that's the first place they'd go.
Rarely do you break a crank , especially such a robust forged fully counterweighted crank held in with splayed 6 bolt mains and a built in "girdle". Here I was referring more to bearing failure due to an imbalance as opposed to crank failure but the piston rings and damage to the cylinder walls would occur first.. likely long before this would come to light.
Most importantly, we can monitor knock (preignition not directly) so if there is no knock, the cosmetic damage to the pistons isn't hurting anything. Again without seeing the damage it's hard to tell how cosmetic it is. Chances are it'll be fine for awhile, hopefully a long while.
These engines don't run much in the way of cylinder pressures, and unlike airplane engines, we're coasting or idling as much as we're under load, he will be fine. I wasn't comparing any of this to airplane engines at all but will agree he should be fine IF the compression checks out now. Technically car engines are under a load as soon as you put it in drive but it is less of a load while idling/coasting, I knew what you meant.
Welcome to the board, it's good to have a mechanic/ engineer on here.
Good to see Justin got it done. Since I bought a new car, it's hard to keep an interest in the TL. I think my future mods will be limited to the roof rack I've always needed for my mountain bikes. I've had the idea to do a direct injection 3.5 turbo, this seems like the logical evolution. Can't blame you for calling it good with the roof rack. You have plenty of other toys that are more fun and have more potential.
Justin never did do any diagnosing to confirm that this was a valve issue to begin with. No pics of the valves or pistons were ever shown on this thread. Without knowing the extent of the damage there it's hard to come to a conclusion. Anytime metal impacts metal the way it does in a valve to piston strike, those small bits of metal go somewhere and unfortunately have a way of finding the piston rings/lands and scoring the cylinder wall. My explanation of hot spots on that cylinder is extremely hard to explain without equipment like this: CLICK HERE & WATCH VID
Sure it can run okay but long term will have an effect vs. no damage being there at all.
I don't agree with your EGT theory.
This was more of an idea to monitor any increased temps from that cylinder and would have to be placed on the exhaust runner which after reading this thread is far above the OP's expertise. A more practical way is to do a compression check every once in awhile (3-6mos) to be on the safe side. A running engine can have slight compression loss -on the chance anything found its way to the ring lands -and seem fine. Some increased exhaust smoke may not be so obvious to the owner. (There's loose exhaust bolts not tightened down here, for example.)
The part about twisting the crankshaft was funny. I think that's the point in most piston engines lol. Crankshafts rotate and should not twist.
I know what you meant but it was still funny to me. On a more serious note, detonation and preignition are hard on the bottom end but it's usually the ring lands that let go first. I mentioned the rings first and you're right, that's the first place they'd go.
Rarely do you break a crank , especially such a robust forged fully counterweighted crank held in with splayed 6 bolt mains and a built in "girdle". Here I was referring more to bearing failure due to an imbalance as opposed to crank failure but the piston rings and damage to the cylinder walls would occur first.. likely long before this would come to light.
Most importantly, we can monitor knock (preignition not directly) so if there is no knock, the cosmetic damage to the pistons isn't hurting anything. Again without seeing the damage it's hard to tell how cosmetic it is. Chances are it'll be fine for awhile, hopefully a long while.
These engines don't run much in the way of cylinder pressures, and unlike airplane engines, we're coasting or idling as much as we're under load, he will be fine. I wasn't comparing any of this to airplane engines at all but will agree he should be fine IF the compression checks out now. Technically car engines are under a load as soon as you put it in drive but it is less of a load while idling/coasting, I knew what you meant.
Welcome to the board, it's good to have a mechanic/ engineer on here.
Good to see Justin got it done. Since I bought a new car, it's hard to keep an interest in the TL. I think my future mods will be limited to the roof rack I've always needed for my mountain bikes. I've had the idea to do a direct injection 3.5 turbo, this seems like the logical evolution. Can't blame you for calling it good with the roof rack. You have plenty of other toys that are more fun and have more potential.
Thanks to the members who gave Justin a hand getting this done. I thought for sure the timing was going to be off upon startup.
The following users liked this post:
rockstar143 (09-10-2014)
#358
There were pictures of the valves and pistons in this thread. Did you miss them? Go back through the pages. They're there.
This is classic mis-shift, bent valves, causing a leak in the heads (not a loss of compression, technically).
Justin fixed it. He can do a compression test, but the pistons looked fine, so I wouldn't worry about it.
This is classic mis-shift, bent valves, causing a leak in the heads (not a loss of compression, technically).
Justin fixed it. He can do a compression test, but the pistons looked fine, so I wouldn't worry about it.
#359
Intermediate
I went through the thread three weeks ago. I see where he updated cylinder head pics on Pg. 1 (not cleaned where anything could really be seen). And a couple of pages later someone else posted what their bent valves looked like but that was it. Not really interested in going back through all that now. The car's running, all we can do is hope for the best and he can rock it like it is.
Not to split hairs but a compression check will reveal a leak in the intake or exhaust valves, valve seats and piston rings. All would be considered a loss of compression either together or individually.
Not to split hairs but a compression check will reveal a leak in the intake or exhaust valves, valve seats and piston rings. All would be considered a loss of compression either together or individually.
Last edited by KR3J//; 09-10-2014 at 01:02 AM.
#360
My motor tested fine on compression across all six and after the leakdown test, it showed that it had a massive leak in 3 of the 6 cylinders. That didn't show up on the compression test.