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EGR Valve Meets Metal Shards -- HFPC Substrate Failure
Posting via mobile, apologies in advance.
Two days ago codes P0401 & P0404. Remove EGR valve and find two of the small pieces of metal shards stuck inside the spring valve, definitely not carbon.
Today, same codes, again two of the small pieces of metal lodged in spring valve. Leave it off not wanting to clean it again for a third time, turn car on, rev for a few moments, turn car off and find largest piece below laying beside engine.
It looks like a metal gasket of some sort. Removed intake manifold cover, intact, didn't come from there.
Car runs fine, qiuet, no apparent issues, but randam metal shards are a little concerning. Also, before installing CCI, I checked tubes for this issue, definitely didn't come from it.
Anyone recognize the metal? What does the outlet of the EGR valve feed into?
Thanks.
TLDR -- I sharded...:;
So, can't upload or attach pics. Will update with photos later.
seems like a piece of the gasket. When i took our my EGR to clean it, i found the old gasket to be brittle and layered, like if it were a few thin gaskets pressed into one. I guess with time, those layers seperate and can lodge themselves in the valve. Other than that, i can't see where it can possibly come from.
the EGR valve recirculates exhaust gases. if its not working correctly, it can over heat the catalytic converter, which then can break down the substrate or melting it.
it doesnt look like metal in your pics, but I believe you when you say its metal...and the only thing that I can think that's metal is the cat substrate
the EGR valve recirculates exhaust gases. if its not working correctly, it can over heat the catalytic converter, which then can break down the substrate or melting it.
it doesnt look like metal in your pics, but I believe you when you say its metal...and the only thing that I can think that's metal is the cat substrate
It doesn't look like metal until you hear it "clink," I hope the HFPCs aren't becoming racing pipes
Well, it just got odder, I assumed it was aluminum, nope.
New pic of it attracted to a fridge magnet.
For the rectangular shape, you can see a line or seam running the length of it, almost looks like a threaded portion of something as the same "line" is indented.
I also tried unfolding the pieces. I'd consider the cat substrate, but it was fine and complete when installed, no rattles, and looked of a different material and shape (stock pictured). The cat substrate would be honeycomb in form, cylindrical, these shards are neither. Also examined the older cat gaskets to compare material/form, not them either, different material.
Although I didn't get a code last night, or pending, I have a felling a tiny piece is stuck in the spring valve again, will also post the gasket from it, it's seems to be a really soft aluminum gasket, again it was intact and not the same material.
Jeez, I want to figure this out. Feel like identifying space debris. Anyone want to hear the car with the EGR Valve off?
Last edited by MonkeyTrucker; 11-01-2015 at 01:35 PM.
Do you need another valve? I have an extra OEM one I can sell for cheap.
I recommend you get a vacuum and suck out anything else that is stuck in the actual port coming for the runners. You actually have a lot more stuff compared to me. I also thought it was part of the Cat, but a scope confirmed nothing was broken.
Do you need another valve? I have an extra OEM one I can sell for cheap.
I recommend you get a vacuum and suck out anything else that is stuck in the actual port coming for the runners. You actually have a lot more stuff compared to me. I also thought it was part of the Cat, but a scope confirmed nothing was broken.
Yeah, I may take you up on the EGR Valve as a standby, I mean this one is working, as a filter too from preventing this shit from circulating. You can PM me some details if you want.
I'm going to update again with pics and video, jaw will drop. Watching my team get beat, again right now. After realizing it was attracted to a magnet, I ran down the road and picked up one of those magnetic reach tools.
So, went on that hunch it was probably clogged again after a 3 hour drive last night and no codes thrown, because at idle when at a red light there was slight rpm flux.
This was the most I've seen yet, first image is the valve spring with these shards preventing it from fully closing. Second of where it mounts and a "bowl" of these shards waiting for a fourth and fifth "cleaning."
I used the magnetic tool and pulled up a clump of the shards, seen in first two photos. Retrieved a second clump in second set of photos.
After using the magnet, I only had a single piece trapped when starting car with EGR off. You can see the collection thus far inside a water bottle.
I'm considering an oxygen sensor "shield" as maybe a likely culprit. It's also odd as there doesn't appear to be recent scoring, scraping, or bending marks on the shards...it doesn't like like whatever it is, that it was recently "ground-up."
I would think this would freak anyone out. Not sure if I should leave it parked until finding the source.
yeah that not good. You have way more shards than me. Get a shop vac and try to suck it all out. Also open the intake manifold and check the EGR crossover pipe. It's on the side that looks really dirty.
yeah that not good. You have way more shards than me. Get a shop vac and try to suck it all out. Also open the intake manifold and check the EGR crossover pipe. It's on the side that looks really dirty.
I did inspect that too when I opened the cover to check that the gasket was intact.
No noise difference in the car recently. Trying to upload video now.
It looks like a piece flies away from there about mid-way through the video, but frame by frame review didn't appear to have come from the EGR intake. Screen is taped over EGR outlet to prevent debris from entering. Car is loud, because EGR Valve is off, you'll hear the engine note change after warm-up.
<embed width="440" height="420" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://v9.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=xelzmd&s=9"><br><font size="1"><a href="http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=xelzmd&s=9">Original Video</a> - More videos at <a href="http://tinypic.com">TinyPic</a></font>
Last edited by MonkeyTrucker; 11-01-2015 at 07:07 PM.
man that is crazy! sorry i don't have any advice OP but i'm sub'd to see what results. i've had my valve stick open from a piece of carbon and my car was stuttering bad, so i can't imagine having all those shards in there.
on a side note...is your upper transmission rubber mount broken?
the EGR valve recirculates exhaust gases. if its not working correctly, it can over heat the catalytic converter, which then can break down the substrate or melting it.
it doesnt look like metal in your pics, but I believe you when you say its metal...and the only thing that I can think that's metal is the cat substrate
I'm no exhaust expert, but i'm sure you can clear this for me. The Exhaust gases leave the engine, a portion goes in EGR which then goes back in the engine. Then it goes through regular exhaust process. Doesn't that mean the EGR is upstream from any cat, which would mean that fragments would have to fly against the flow of air? Or do gases pass through cat and then go to EGR?
I'm no exhaust expert, but i'm sure you can clear this for me. The Exhaust gases leave the engine, a portion goes in EGR which then goes back in the engine. Then it goes through regular exhaust process. Doesn't that mean the EGR is upstream from any cat, which would mean that fragments would have to fly against the flow of air? Or do gases pass through cat and then go to EGR?
I know, it would have had to come from cat area or have already have been combusted. It just looks mangled, but without evidence of it occurring, I'd expect it to look like some cut-up tin with tin-snips, these have blunted edges, not sharp at all other than being thin.
I'd through another guess out there, but figured someone else would assume it first.
Uggh, I'll take the front HFPC off and check the substrate again, but, damn just put these calipers on and thought I'd be done for a while, the caliper replacement and full flush also had the added benefit of smoothing a vibration I had left at 70-85+. Until then, I'm going to just remove the EGR Valve after driving it and having a gander. It literally takes two minutes to remove and uses a 12mm socket for the two top nuts.
Last edited by MonkeyTrucker; 11-01-2015 at 09:56 PM.
that's a pic of the stock cat. he currently has hfpcs in.
i've seen a pair of hfpcs from rv6 that were burned up and had the substrate loose (returned to owner and got my money back). after running my new hfpcs for 6 months or so, part of my rear HFPC also burned up a little over use but i am doing all i can to not remove/fix/install that rear one again it's a pain in the butt haha. i don't think that's what happened here just throwing it out there that it does happen more than thought
Yeah, this should merge into the share your EGR Valve and mount ports thread.
It's super easy to remove and inspect, 2 x 12mm top nuts & electrical clip.
I plugged in the clip when you see/hear it in the video above. I thought maybe the electronics would trigger the valve spring in the video. The spring depresses into the wind, so to speak, so all of these pieces are trying to pass the plunger shaped bottom of the "EGR" intake.
Yesterday when I took it off, I was wearing the same style gloves and was testing the mount ports in/out flow, just at idle rpms, I nearly had the thumb area of my glove sucked in. Just don't be tempted to do that, since I've already shown the flow. I'd also fashion a screen of sorts if you're going to run with it off. I was holding the magnet portion in, expecting to "catch" another clump after removing what I already had.
I'm curious what else is lurking in other TLs.
Last edited by MonkeyTrucker; 11-01-2015 at 10:29 PM.
after running my new hfpcs for 6 months or so, part of my rear HFPC also burned up a little over use but i am doing all i can to not remove/fix/install that rear one again it's a pain in the butt haha. i don't think that's what happened here just throwing it out there that it does happen more than thought
Hmmm, I guess until I remove to inspect my HFPCs, I will scour for pics of the insides of the RV6 HFPCs, pretty sure I've come across pics like that in the blackmarket.
The RV6 HFPCs which supposedly only had 400 miles on them when I bought them back in May were finally installed on 9/12/15, and my car sat about two weeks during that time while performing other maintenance. So driving on these for less than a month, the front HFPC had a failure of the core after I've put less than 1,500 miles on them, or less than 2,000 total. So my advice, don't buy HFPCs used...at all.
If you have them installed, it'd be good practice to periodically inspect the front HFPC through removing the top oxygen sensor and inspecting the inlet on the EGR valve.
Four small pieces set off the original CEL codes in the OP, I've literally pulled out a handful that didn't set off ANY CEL codes since, when time permits tomorrow, I'll show you the amount that didn't set off codes. Really unbelievable when you see it.
I just finished removing the front HFPC and it's essentially a PCD now, I removed the substrate. Ran the engine with the front exhaust removed to blow the remaining shit out. No codes thrown after driving for about 20 minutes. There was no noticeable rasp, but the gain was back and immediately noticed as soon as I hit the gas.
While this issue was occurring, only a slight RPM jumps were noticed when in drive at a light, there was really no alarms going off that something was amiss, other than visually checking the EGR Valve every day since I posted the OP.
The entire core inside was loose and could freely travel up/down inside. The debris was on the intake side and only a small amount of particles was noticed within the J-Pipe. No oil was manifested within the HFPC, which was good to see when removing the substrate.
I see nothing on my end that would have contributed to these failing with supposedly low miles on them, as you can see how clean the stock cats were in the photos above. I'll be removing the rear this weekend and remove the substrate as well, way too risky to have that shit flying back into your engine.
If you run these HFPCs installed, have a slight vibration at 80+ mph, and have an ever so slight rpm jump while in gear at a light...you've been warned. I don't feel that permanent damage was done to my TL, but if ignored, and you clog your cat, that pressure will go somewhere, and you'll have bigger issues.
You say don't buy used HFPC, but I'm not sure that makes a difference.
+1 on this. regardless or used or not, all of them are susceptible to breaking down. it's not the fact that you bought it used, you could have gotten it new and had this happen at any point. this is the 4th or 5th time i've seen a set like this (mine currently has some burned up substrate but no remnants as far as i know). one of these days i'm going to send it back in to get re-catted but it's a 2 week turnaround.
it takes a little while just a heads up (that's why i haven't done mine yet, mine is my DD and i have to put in my regular cats but it's a pain to install so i've pushed it off haha). richie said the cat company picks them up on fridays and returns them the next friday.
richie basically said the few times he's seen this happen was when unburned fuel gets into the cat and melts the core. i bought a used set but it was damaged in this way when i got it and the seller took back the product and refunded me. he only had the cats on for 7k miles.
like any aftermarket part there's a risk, but overall these are still great products. i think my core got partially melted (1" by 1/4" rectangle) when i was doing all my tuning in the beginning.
If that's the case my cats are probably BBQ. It was running rich for a while before everything was fully tuned. This would probably explain why my front banks were misfiring when tuning.
Last edited by thisaznboi88; 11-05-2015 at 01:02 PM.
If that's the case my cats are probably BBQ. It was running rich for a while before everything was fully tuned. This would probably explain why my front banks were misfiring when tuning.
yea i'm pretty sure it happens when you run rich, which i was before dom showed me the light and tuned me (previous tune was vit viper and i think it was running rich).
interested to see what yours looks like haha (not really funny though)
richie basically said the few times he's seen this happen was when unburned fuel gets into the cat and melts the core. i bought a used set but it was damaged in this way when i got it and the seller took back the product and refunded me. he only had the cats on for 7k miles.
Issue with the HFPC or cats in general?
While I agree running rich is not good for the cats there's rich and there's "it's gonna destroy your cats within 5k miles" sorta thing. I don't think I've heard of OEM cats on Hondas going out in such a quick or extreme manner.
While I agree running rich is not good for the cats there's rich and there's "it's gonna destroy your cats within 5k miles" sorta thing. I don't think I've heard of OEM cats on Hondas going out in such a quick or extreme manner.
HFPC. i don't think they are the same quality as the oem cats. the oem cats look very solid
i agree it's not going to happen from running a little rich, but that there is some other bigger issue that happens at some point
10-31-2015 | 08:35 PM
someone needs a new gasket and to clean it with some carb cleaner!