PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

That's so interesting.. I have a 18" Aspec rims... and I have no vibration issues what soever..

however -- i do have warped rotors .. again, now for the second time.

GoBig

So at above 80 mph, it's smooth? If so, you're very lucky!

ne-fl-tl

Yesterday I took my '04 TL back to the dealer for the 4th time due to vibration. After checking the balance of the tires, nothing was found. So I have my 3 documented visits for the same issue with and additional visit for an alignment. In Florida I have to work through the Better Business Bureau before going to the State for Lemon Law. So today I submitted the info online to the BBB to get things moving. We'll see how it goes...

PG_ART

Your are lugging the engine, in a 5 speed automatic this will happen, try using the sport shift mode and keeping the rpm at around 1800-2000, it works great for me..

rets

Ok, 05TL seems to lift its range 400 RPM higher...

ebloomponycar

I went to arbitration on October 8, 2004, and quess what, I won my money back which I get next tuesday. Acura is admitting to three vibrations in car but say that is what you bought. Can you believe that. I encourage all the owners with the severe morning vibration that fades away into a slighter 50-75 mph vibration to go to Arbitration. I had three sets of tires that did not change a thing. Then the Acura dealer said I needed another set of tires. The dealer had the car 4 times and never checked a nut or bolt, you know why, because they are aware of the problem. An undisclosed Acura official said it best to me, "It is just business, you are the first person to go to arbitration after a second set of tires so we are taking our chances? "It would cost us alot of money if we had to replace everyones transmission." I could not believe it. No more HONDA products for me. GOOD LUCK to all the TL owners with the vibration problem as there are many. If you are in a warmer climate you may not feel the morning vibration as much as it seems to worsen as it gets below 55 degrees. Arbitration works, and is supposed to be completed in a minimum of time.

Happy Holidays

rvmeush

I don't recall the transmission being mentioned before as the cause of the vibration problem. What in the transmission would cause this?

cvajs

my explanation:
auto trans is like a giant "tuning fork". oscillations in fluid cavities, gear chatter, all sorts of stuff. couple that to a rotating mass (engine) and now 2 "tuning forks" are coupled together.

freqflier

Hi ebloomponycar:

Can you explain how you initiated the arbitration process regarding the vibration issue? Did you have to go through the dealership?

KTOBLESKY

Not to sound stupid, but did they actually buy your car back?
Did you go through the BBB for your arbitration?

cwcjr1

I too had the driveline vibration. After paying out of pocket locally to have the tires balanced and aligned within one week of buying the 04 TL, the problem still existed. I took it to the dealer twice, they checked the tires and said there was no problem. On the third visit, they finally felt the "strong vibration" that I was complaining about. They told me my only option was to call Acura Customer Care. More aptly, it should be called "Acura Don't Care." I spoke to Ed (the manager at Acura Customer Care) and he was TERRIBLY unhelpful. He acknowledged that it's a known "issue" but stopped short of recognizing it as a problem. He said it was a "product characteristic" as if the vibration was intentionally baked into the car's design. In spite of the fact that Engineering has "no fix" for the issue, Acura completely refused to do anything to resolve the problem, likening it to a "cupholder that was in an unsatisfory place and drawing customer complaints".

Uhhh, excuse me but driveline vibration on a $34K and an inconveniently placed cupholder are hardly in the same league! I got fed up with the whole damn thing and traded the car in for an 04 Lexus. Already I am MUCH happier with the Lexus and I will NEVER EVER EVER spend one more dime on a Honda or anything made by them EVER again!!!

I hope others continue to take Acura to arbitration and make them own up and fix their shoddy 2004 TL product. This is one customer they've lost forever!

ebloomponycar

I hope more people arbitrate as well. I get my check at the dealership today. If anyone else needs advice just email me at ebloom8249@hotmail.com. Arbitration was relatively easy and would have been done in 40 or so days except that Acura refused to provide a test vehicle as the Arbitrator wanted. Even the Acura Rep wanted the Arbitrator to have another car test driven for comparison purposes. The Arbitrator gave Acura an extra 30 days to provide a test car which they never did. That delayed my victory by that length of time.

It should really be a class action lawsuit because Acura is acting criminally. They have knowledge of the problem, they are hiding that knowledge and the truth, and they are refusing to warranty their product.

Eric

cvajs

criminally? nah, more like an unseen engineered annoyance. they did not put the vibrations in on purpose. it poses no safety issue.

it could take many many months for a expert engineering analysis team to comb the car and find the cause, then possibly another few months to develop a fix, and another few weeks to implement and test.

maybe the steel bar up front was engineered using metric units but was mistakenly fabricated using English units but they did not convert the #.

they do warranty it, there's simply no fix at this time.

who knows, maybe next week there will be a TSB or a recall with a easy fix?

GUMP

...Yeah, but they are still selling the car. I understand that some people don't feel the vibrations at all, but it's pretty clear there's a problem with the car. I'm going the lawyer route now. I'll keep you updated.

need4spd

cvajs, I would have to agree that it was maybe an unseen, and that it may take many months to find, but I know that they have known of the problem for at least a year, and to have no fix over that period of time is crazy. I was not as vocal, as I have been lately, which is honestly due to the period of time Acura has had and they still have not fixed this vibration issue.

Second, it is a saftey issue, look at the Yokahama website:

http://www.yokohamatire.com/utmatch.asp

Quote "Proper tire and wheel assembly balancing is important from a vehicle safety standpoint. In high-speed driving, improperly balanced tire/wheel assemblies will cause a vehicle to lose stability and not operate in a safe and comfortable manner. Improperly balanced tire/wheel assemblies also cause abnormal treadwear patterns."

Additionally, it causes abnormal wear to suspension components as they are vibrating in a way that was not designed.

Acura bought mine back 11 months ago for the very same reason as they did ebloompony car.

KJSmitty

"Arbitration was relatively easy and would have been done in 40 or so days except that Acura refused to provide a test vehicle as the Arbitrator wanted. Even the Acura Rep wanted the Arbitrator to have another car test driven for comparison purposes. The Arbitrator gave Acura an extra 30 days to provide a test car which they never did. "

This is precisely why you won. I would consider anyone very fortunate that succeeds with arbitration when pursuing a vibration issue. From following many other cases (other manufacturers) as well as one of my own, vibration cases normally go to the manufacturer due to "all" having the issue thus a normal characteristic. Acura dragging their feet with the test vehicle reflected/resulted favorably to your case in the arbitrators eyes.

Either way, I praise you (and anyone else) for your/their determination and persistence. Every once in a while the consumer does win.

It would be very nice if Acura just stepped up to the plate and fixed the issue. But heck, that would go against the bean counters/business goals. The cost of fixing the problem severely out-ways the overall cost of playing ignorant.

Smitty

fastcyc

My brother happens to own a 2004 TL that is an absolutely great car. He has no issues whatsoever with driveline vibration. Based on his satisfaction, I made the mistake of buying a new 2005 TL. I was very happy with this car until I started driving it at highway speeds.

Between 50-62 mph, there is a severe vibration through the steering wheel. It was so bad one day that my dashboard was rattling. At the time, the car had only 200 miles on it, and I brought it back to the dealer. He balanced the front tires, and gave the car back to me with the same problem.

I returned to the dealer with 463 miles on the clock; he balanced all four tires this time, and rotated them. Same problem. He is now trying to tell me that this is a characteristic of the car that I bought. He put 40 miles on my car and burned up 1/4 tank of gas coming to this conclusion.

Now he wants to replace all four tires with new ones off another car. My car is still in the dealership (Valley Stream, N.Y.) as I write this. This will be his third try at fixing the problem and I have yet to see or receive a work order.

Needless to say, I am pissed off because I feel I have been ripped off. On one hand, they act like they never ran into this before, and on the other, they are telling me its normal for this car . . .

I want my money back.

rrochlin

i bought an 04 tl in july of 04 i had all the vibrations issues. after 4 monthes of dealing with acura they agreed to trade me out of my car to an 05 for $1500 plus tax. my 05 has michelins and while the vibration is there its only a fraction of what it was on the 04. i hope this helps!

GUMP

Dude..get work orders!! Make sure each work order is closed out. It sounds like you have the much dreaded vibration. Still working on my case. Keep everything documented and start writting down dates, names, etc..You'll need it.

need4spd

fastcyc,

Absolutely, you have to get the work orders for each and every visit, insist they do that, it is a legal document and will be needed if you go to arbitration or file lemon law proceedings. They are required by law to provide the work orders, or you can call DMV (see below).

In addition, you should start to provide your complaints in writing, and then send to Acura also (see the links).

Here is the link to the NYS Lemon Law page of the Attorney General's office:

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/consumer/...wcarlemon.html

Questions and Answers:

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/consumer/cars/qa.html

You can also call your local Attorney General’s office for Lemon Law info

Here are some excerpts of the Q&A's:


WHAT SHOULD YOU DO IF YOU BECOME AWARE OF A PROBLEM WITH YOUR CAR?

You should immediately report any defect or "condition" covered by the manufacturer's warranty directly to the manufacturer or to its authorized dealer.

A "condition" is a general problem, such as a difficulty in starting, repeated stalling, or a malfunctioning transmission, that can result from a defect of one or more parts.

If you report the problem to the dealer, the law requires the dealer to forward written notice to the manufacturer within seven days. Under the law, notice to the dealer is considered notice to the manufacturer.

WHAT SHOULD YOU DO IF THE DEALER REFUSES TO MAKE REPAIRS?

If the dealer refuses to make repairs within seven days of receiving notice from you, you should immediately notify the manufacturer in writing, by certified mail, return receipt requested, of the car's problem and that the dealer has refused to make repairs.

A sample notice to the manufacturer may be found in this booklet.

WHAT MUST THE MANUFACTURER DO UPON RECEIPT OF YOUR NOTICE OF THE DEALER'S REFUSAL TO MAKE REPAIRS?

The manufacturer or its authorized dealer must commence repairs within 20 days from receipt of your notice of the dealer's refusal to make repairs.

HOW CAN YOU PROVE YOU OWN A LEMON?

You must be able to establish the necessary repair attempts or days out-of-service due to repairs. Therefore, it is very important to keep careful records of all complaints, copies of all work orders, repair bills, correspondence, and all telephone and email communications.

A dealer is required by Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) regulations to provide a legible and accurate written work order each time any repair work is performed on a car, including warranty work for which no charge is made. You may contact the DMV in Albany at 518-474-8943 if you have a problem obtaining your repair orders.

DOES THE LAW SPECIFY THE NUMBER OF REQUIRED REPAIR ATTEMPTS?

Yes. It is presumed that there has been a reasonable number of attempts to repair a problem if, during the first 18,000 miles of operation or two years from the original delivery date, whichever comes first, either (a) the manufacturer (or its authorized dealer) has had an opportunity to repair the same problem four or more times and the problem continued to exist at the end of the fourth repair attempt; or (b) the car was out of service by reason of repair for a cumulative total of 30 or more calendar days for one or more problems.

You or the manufacturer may rebut this presumption by demonstrating that fewer, or more, than four repair attempts, or 30 days out-of-service due to repairs, is reasonable under the circumstances.





I hope this helps, don't let them push you around!

cvajs

i don't think the vibrations are from the wheels or tires. hence the reason why when they swapped your stuff the vibrations did no go away. it's some sort of harmonics chiming into the chassis.

did you note the speed or rpm's of when the vibrations happen? if you have that please post so i can compare that to my tl.

DFBRL8R

I bought my car in September and just turned 10,400 miles on it. Well guess what? I finally felt the driveline vibration thing on Monday. (now that's something a manufacturer should never read, someone expecting to get a problem and FINALLY getting it). Anyhow, I was driving at around 50-52mph in 5th gear (5AT) and it started. I felt it through the steering wheel and could hear it over the stereo. Like a duhduhduhduhduhduh sound as a flat spotted tire would make. After I got over 60mph it disappeared. It was a bit colder on Monday than it's been in the past days that I've driven it. I'm going to check all of the suggestions in prior posts to see if it dissapears. If not, I will take it back to Acura armed with the 6 pages of posts here and see what they come up with.

need4spd

Mine happened at 1500 to 1600rpms in an 04TL. The car would vibrate and

Speed was not a factor as it would happen at 50-60mph in 5th gear, 30-35 in 4th, and I think around 20 or so in 3rd, but the most severe vibration and droning noise was at 50-60. I concluded as did Acura at the time that it was tied to harmonics at 1500rpms. I agree that this was not tied to the wheels or tires.

Besides that I also had issues with wheels and tires 1) never being able to balance the tires above 60 (differnt sensation) that would come and go (sometimes it was fine, others not), and 2) the cold flat spotting (the flat spotting bothered me, but not as much as the 1500rpm issue).

From what I have seen, and stated many times before, the car has three vibration issues, one driveline/exhuast/harmonic issue, one with unstable ballancing, and the third related to new tire construction (flat spotting, see my post about this in the tire and wheel section).

cvajs

mine is at about the same rpms. this suggests to me a harmonic feedback from the coupled components (engine/tranny/driveline) and happens in that rpm band. the trick now is to find the dominant component, which really cannot be done unless the pieces are seperated.

fastcyc

IT STILL VIBRATES!

Thanks everyone for the input. Here is my update:

After balancing just the front tires (first attempt) then balancing/rotating and four tires (second visit) they installed four completely different rims and tires (strike three).

When I bought the car (only 508 miles ago), it had Bridgestones and vibrated. So, for the final attempt, the dealer installed a new set of Michelins already on rims from another 2005 TL. NFG, it still did the same exact thing.

IT STILL VIBRATES!

They are now giving me the song and dance about talking to the regional service manager after he gets back from vacation next week.

In the interim, I will take this car to a completely different dealer and ask that he fix it under the warranty. That should be STRIKE FOUR! Then it will be hammer time.

Do you boys think I should consider a new TL without the problem or should I ask for my money back?

gbriank

How bad is this vibration?

fastcyc

The vibration feels almost like a steady "rumble" through the steering wheel. It comes at about 52 mph, seems to subside then it comes back again around 58 mph, and subsides and comes on the hardest at around 62 mph. The car is right around 1500 rpm (AT). Since I am sensitive to it now, I feel like its there slightly everywhere else, but the speeds I indicated are the worst.

If you leave your hands on the steering wheel, its enought to put them to sleep!

I don't think a car that costs this much should do this. I have a 2001 Mercury Sable that has a better ride. So does the TSX loaner that the dealer gave me. In fact, my 1989 Ford E350 cargo van doesn't have any vibration through the steering!

This sucks.

gbriank

Do me a favor.... Take your car out and accelerate up to 52 mph. When the "rumble" starts, shift over to manual mode and downshift to 4th gear. See if this makes a difference..... A few folks have been complaining of a "harmonic" issue in 5th gear between 50 and 65. I'm wondering if the issue isn't related to the transmission downshift too fast (to get better fuel economy).

need4spd

Been there, done that, yes, it goes away when you downshift to 4th as the rpms pop up to about 2k or so, and gone is the vibration.

If you read the many, many threads on this, it is not the tires, and is related to the 1500rpm level at ANY speed. It is most evident at 50 -60 mph.

gbriank

Yup, the all feared "drivetrain" issue..... has this been reported to the NHTSA yet?

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

I've had the A-spec rims and tires since day 1 and never any vibration....

need4spd

I have not posted it there, but if you look, yes, you will see that it has, many times, including the tire issues.

sftroy

EVERYONE with vibrations please do yourself and everyone else a favor and file a complaint with NHTSA if Acura doesn't correct the problem. Fight this problem - take them to BBB and don't give up.

I have a very, very early buid 04TL and have already gone thru all the hoops Acura is making you go thru. I'm on my 3rd set of tires, multiple balancing & alignments, test drives with the Dist. Svc people, over 30 days in service, etc. just to be told that the vibrations, which are getting worse and worse, are a "normal characteristic" of my $34K car. This is complete BS. I'm also having tranny noises and now slipping gears (yes, my tranny was recalled but the recall work was done after 19K miles). After a horrible customer service experience with "Bob" at ACS relating my ongoing problems with the car, I filed with BBB. My case has been heard, and a Technical Inspection has been completed. I got a copy of the inspection report which fully supports my claims of ongoing issues and and I'm confident that I will win. I'll hear the outcome next week. (Feel free to PM me if you want any advice or info about my car's problems and about the BBB process.)

The worst part is I loved my car and I honestly hoped that Acura would step up and correct the defects. It's very clear to me its all about the bottom line and not about customer service . . . .

gbriank

Are you planning to get another TL or move on to another auto company?

sftroy

That has been on my mind for months now. I really like the TL, but it sounds like others are still having vibrations issues with the 05. I'm assuming that the tranny has been reengineered after the recall . . . but I assumed that when I got out of a 03 Accord V6 Coupe that also suffered tranny failure.

I don't know yet. No matter the outcome of my case, I'm outta this TL. I don't feel safe and can't stand the vibrations. Its a shame . . . .

cvajs

test drives? tires? rotation? alignments? sounds like they're guessing. someone (Honda engineering) needs to send out a team and equip a TL with vibration sensors. a real scientific analysis using good tools is required at this point.

however, don't get your hopes up, if it's a major "to-do" fix they'll most likely ignore the issue and hope future models don't have the issue, and hope for repeat customers, and hope that existing customers dont flea to the competition.

need4spd

I am with you, I could not decide to give it up, or live with it, they did not offer a swap, and I certianly was not going to give them my money a second time, especially if the second one was bad also, then what, go through the whole thing again?

I too really loved the car, almost kept it, then I woke up for the above reasons.

Anyway, I am out, no TL or honda for me.

I wish you luck in your choice!

Too many people going through the process, I did it 10 months ago, and I am sorry to see others are still having problems.

cvajs

"reengineered" tranny (5AT)?? nah, it just comes with the fix already in the tranny. there was no time (and too costly) to re-tool, they just live with the fix.

you'll see the "same thing" sometimes on circuit boards, small jumper wires that look like they don't belong.

GUMP

Isn't there any type of "class action" suit that can take place here. I know there are roughly 65k tl's out there and only a small percentage here on the board. But there has be others out there with the same problems that have no clue of us here.

sftroy

I've heard from others that the vibration issue has to do with the sub-frame. I've also heard its the torque lock converter. And don't forget the PVC EL42's. What ever is causing it, Acura NEVER checked my engine mounts, frame, drive train - ANYTHING else. Just put me thru the hoops then call it normal. Funny, my neighbor has NO vibrations, neither does the guy I talked to in San Jose a week ago . . . I guess I got the "feature" for free.

As far as the tranny goes, they have had plenty of time to fix the problem - just look at all the tranny recalls Honda/Acura has had - Accords, Odyssey, TL, CL, etc. over several years of production. I was told by two dealers that the 04 TL had a completely new tranny vs the 03 (which was recalled). Guess not.

need4spd: thanks for your personal comments a few weeks ago. You and a few others gave me great advice prior to my hearing. Thanks!