zookie

I'm replacing the rotors on my TL with Brembo. Course now I might also be replacing the calipers themselves as well.

There are two bolts that hold the caliper. These are 19mm bolts torqued at 125.

I had to turn the wheel and remove these with a breaker bar. The problem is the need for the breaker bar never stopped at any time. Each turn required the breaker bar and not just a simple ratchet. Obviously felt wrong the whole time but was already committed so here is the result.




I don't understand why it did this. At it was only at the time. The problem is once the tip was stripped like that, getting it all the way through the rest of the remaining threads in the caliper is what made it so tough.

So now, I need to decide whether to put these same bolts back in, or run to Acura (not close) and buy new ones. IF the new ones will even go back in because I'm afraid of what the threads look like inside the caliper at this point.

Any advice appreciated!

Bearcat94

You may have a bigger problem than just the bolt. The threads on the caliper are likely fuxored too.

Are you the first owner? Or have you ever removed these bolts before? Wondering how they got stripped in the first place.

I have noticed that it can be easy to start these bolts cross-threaded. It takes a little patience and practice to get the caliper positioned properly so the bolt screws in smoothly. If you can't get the first several threads started by hand, it ain't right.

You might consider having someone check this out who can re-tap the caliper threads if needed.

01tl4tl

yes- need a tap set run thru the bracket threads, and a new bolt
If the threads are trashed- they can be drilled out and heli-coil inserted to accept a new bolt
NAPA auto parts have a machine shop as example for help
Or it may need a replacement bracket- try auto recycler yard

sloppy techs and air guns,,,,if the bolt isnt started by hand it can be driven in crossthreaded and no one is the wiser

zookie

Thank you both. To my knowledge, the bolts have never been removed before but I am the second owner and it seems highly unlikely that the factory rotors have lasted this long so a rotor job most likely has been done on this car before. I got the car with 48k miles on it and it has not had the rotors removed for any reason I'm aware of since then. The car now has 138k miles so I'm extremely surprised the rotors have lasted as long as they have any way you spin it. Even if they were replaced just before I bought the car, I'm still impressed that they made it 90k miles because I drive moderate to hard.

Isn't it strange that the stripping is at the end of the bolt only? I would have thought that if they had started off cross threaded that the entire bolt would end up pretty messed up, but these bolts, only the first few threads are chewed.

I decided to check the other one on this caliper and the two on the other. Without taking them all the way out, I can tell they all have the exact same problem.

Thank you for the lead on NAPA for the re-tap because that was my next question. Can Acura do this as well or would it just be crazy expensive there? Only reason I ask is because I get a free loaner car at NAPA and going without my car is difficult with work (I drive all around town ever day).

Any other places besides NAPA have the machine shop I need for them to re-rap these calipers? I only ask because while NAPA used to be big in this town, AutoZone and Advanced Auto has essentially run them out of here. They even closed a major distribution hub they had. So NAPA stores are not nearby.

Think it is safe to put these bolts back in using whatever it takes just so I can drive it to a machine shop or Acura if they can do it? As in, my caliper isn't likely to come off while driving just because these are cross threaded, right?

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

You're certainly not the first this has happened to as there are other threads that state the same problem. If you take it to Acura they will more than likely want to put another caliper on the car at $400 each rather than trying to do a repair. For now clean the threads on the bolt using a file and punch and if you have a tap clean up the caliper. If no tap, after cleaning the threads, install the bolt slowly with a lubricant then remove and dry the area. As long as the bolt tightens down it will hold until the repair is done.

zookie

Got it. To my knowledge, the guy who had it before me had all service done at Acura and if I haven't done my limited skillset of maintenance myself, it has always gone to Acura so potentially, they are the ones with the sloppy tech and an air gun. Stinks.

I did exactly what Turbonut advised (minus the tap part because I don't have but will be ordering) and while it still went in with quite a bit of force, I'd say these are destined for some heli-coil. They went in all the way and were above 125lb (just to get them in) so I think they'll hold until I get a repair job done.

Maybe I'm calling the wrong places but I know there are a LOT of TLs out there that get smashed and parted out and it doesn't seem like it should be that hard to find used calipers but every place in Cincinnati I call seems to have extremely limited parts on these cars. Anyone know of good places to look for parts? I know of the OEM acura parts places but I want recycler yards (formerly known as junk yards). Even the OEM parts places want $300+ for a caliper. A recycler and used parts place, in theory, should be a lot less.

nfnsquared

http://www.copartfinder.com/finder/searchMake.do#

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Here's another:
http://www.car-part.com/index.htm
Just need to check not only 2004 which will give you 04-06, but need to check '07 also because of the TL-S.

You're better off using the Heli-coil or Timeserts on your own calipers.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/how-inst...eli-coils.html

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-braki...cket-hole.html

Last Heli-coil I needed was on a VW block for the head bolt, it was fine.

zookie

Thanks for the links and letting me know which model years would match. I'll probably go the heli-coil route. One of my customers has a pretty advanced machine shop that I totally forgot about and I'm certain he can fix these for me.

I went ahead and replaced the rotors on both sides. Had to breaker bar through each bolt on both calipers. Figured nothing to lose since I could already tell they all needed re-tapped.

I kept my same performance pads with these new rotors. Runs good, but of course I now have two new issues.

One, this might be because the new pads need to wear into the new rotors. I can see the surface of the rotor is only getting hit by about 50% of the pad. I can get a picture if that doesn't make sense. This one could be related to the caliper issue. That sound right?

The other, and this is probably more common so I'm hoping there is an easy fix. Only the passenger side sounds like the pads are dragging. Just a little bit and more so when I brake or turn to the left. It's that very light dragging screeching sound. Any thoughts?

Thanks again!

Bearcat94

I've swapped pads and rotors 2 or 3 times now and I've never had anything like dragging, at least not after the first stop or two.

nfnsquared

IIRC, someone just recently had their caliper/s successfully heli-coiled or re-tapped, can't remember which.

Someone else just replaced their caliper with a used caliper. I think they both posted in the same thread.

Edit: Here's the heli-coil post:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...0&postcount=46

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Used pads with irregular wear against machined new rotors you'll have areas that won't be touched by the pads until they wear to the new surface.
Make certain the pins and springs are correct and the wear indicator is in the correct position, outer pad down.

zookie

Bearcat, thanks. I've only replaced pads on this car and of course no sound after a proper bedding. This is definitely something rubbing.

Thanks for the link on the heli-coil. I'm going to try to go that route...unless of course I find a sweet deal on used calipers from a wrecked car.

Turbonut, it's getting late here so I'll take the wheel off again in the morning and check the wear indicator. Honestly, I don't even know what it looks like on these but I assume it's just a piece of metal sticking out a little on one of the pads. If its on the pad, surely it's on correctly from a top to bottom perspective. The pads only have holes at the top for the pins. But outer/inner, now that's a good question. I'll check in the morning, good idea!

As for the spring, I assume you mean the spring on top right? On the Brembo there is just the two pads, two pins to hold them in and also give tension to what I'll call a spring. I can see how the spring could be flipped over which would be wrong because there would be no tension at all, but what about simply rotated wrong?

Basically, I know which way should face up so that it gets proper tension, but does it matter which direction it is in? Like should one end be toward the top of the caliper and one end toward the bottom or does it not matter as long as it is on there with tension? Should it sit in any particular position?

Bearcat94

Yeah, that brass looking "plate" on top is the spring. Held in by the 2 pins. As long the correct side is facing out, up and down (rotation) doesn't matter.

Here's a pic in the correct position - the little "bump" in the middle faces out:

nfnsquared

Don't know, but both of those problems could be caused by the "brute force" method of re-threading of the caliper bolts into the caliper causing slight mis-alignment of the caliper....

zookie

nfnsquared, that's exactly what I'm afraid of but wasn't sure if that was a valid thought. Like the entire caliper is just slightly tilted making the pads only hit toward the center and then causing them to drag just the slightest bit while rolling.

I took a look at the pads on the passenger side again today and they are the RacingBrake ET300 pads...no wear indicator at all. Both pads are identical so it looks like they could go on inner or outer. If the indicator was supposed to be transferred from the factory pads to the ET300s, it was not (if that's even possible with these).

There is some dirt on the parts of the pads that are not touching the rotor. Is it safe to spray pads with the same brake cleaner I used on the rotors to get that factory oil stuff off?

zookie

Am I correct in that ANY 2007 TL-S (AT or 6MT) will have the same Brembo caliper that is on my 2004 6MT?

Car-part has them for $125 each from a 2005 6MT. I'll have to see what my customer will charge to machine these and put in heli-coil but $250 for a set (plus shipping) isn't bad. That's less than a single caliper from OEM places.

Bearcat94

My RB pads (ET500) did not have a squealer tab either.

Yes on the other: All Type-S from 2007 & 2008 are the same brakes as all MT from 2004 - 2006.

$125 is a great deal on a caliper in good condition.

zookie

Ok, good news and bad news.

The good news is that the noise is not coming from the front brakes. It's coming from the passenger rear brakes (which I haven't touched). Bad news is I have a new problem to diagnose. Hopefully easier though.

First, I need to apologize because I changed something while doing the brakes before I talked about the screeching noise and I didn't tell you all about it. I changed my wheels/tires. I have wheels/tires for sale and someone wanted to see them on the car. So, while changing my brakes, I also swapped my factory wheels/tires for 19" RonJons. Diameter is the same though since they have a very low profile sidewall. Sorry.

So, on to the noise. I sounds much like a wear indicator, but all the time. Although it is not the wear indicator because there is a lot of pad left. So, that leads me to the e-brake which I have unfortunately never toyed with on this car. Anyone have some advice for what I need to check or how to tighten the e-brake on the manual transmission? I have been having to yank on it more and more lately so perhaps that's all it is.

zookie

I stand corrected...AGAIN!!! It IS the pad. The inner pad on the other side is hitting the wear indicator. Simply coincidence that this started at the exact same time I was working on the front brakes. Always something like that.

Ok, now for an easy question.

Can I use cheap Autozone rear pads for this car? Obviously I want good ones for the front and I have the ET300s up there, but these rear ones look like typical old cheap pads. I could go get $19 pads at Autozone today or I could order $52 +s/h (Edit: s/h is $16) from RacingBrake for the ET300 rears. I'm leaning toward the RacingBrake pads but I really don't feel like listening to this noise for the next 5-7 days for shipping.

nfnsquared

I'd think you'd be fine running the AZ pads on the rear. I'm running ET300's up front and still have the original stockies on the rear.

zookie

Cool, thanks! Of course its based on driving and I'm a moderate to hard driver (but no track) and I got 138k on the rear stockies. Rear rotors have slight grooving, but overall still look fine Headed to AZ now.

Bearcat94

I agree with this. I think you'll be fine too zookie.

I've run stock pads at the rear with ET500 on the front for a track day and never had any issues.

The great majority of the braking force (~70%) is on the fronts.

zookie

Great news. I threw on a set of AZ pads and all screeching is gone, of course. Runs perfectly!!! Took it on a half hour country drive with some sharp curves and the brakes perform as expected.

Still have to get the calipers re-tapped or get some recycled ones but for the moment, everything is great.

Thanks to everyone for their advice!

johnny3

People keep sugesting you buy new calipers for the thread fix, the threads are in the steering knuckle I believe.
You may have to remove the knuckles & take them to a mach. shop to repair the threads properly, the threads need to be perpendicular to the knuckle bracket caliper mount or the threads may strip again because of misalignment of the bolt to the threaded hole.
An experienced machinist probably could (maybe) do it straight using the caliper bolt hole as a guide but he'd be working from the back side (harder to get to & keep straight).

zookie

I can't remember and I'm done taking the wheels off for this week, hehe, but I can essentially guarantee that the calipers are threaded. They would have to be. Not saying that the knuckle isn't as well because it probably is, but the caliper would have to have threads too.

So basically, I need to have a machinist look at both because one of the two or both need fixed. I'll update this thread once I get this done but you are probably right in that it isn't just as simple as throwing on some new calipers.

I feel like when I put the caliper bolts in that they slid right through the knuckle and didn't hit threads until the Brembo caliper. This would make sense since aligning the knuckle and the caliper if both were threaded wouldn't be fun, but I can't be 100% so it's worth getting it all checked out.

Thanks!

Bearcat94

Without going out and checking (I'm not taking my wheels off either ) I'm pretty sure this is correct.

The knuckle just has a bracket that the caliper aligns to and the bolt goes through the bracket and screws into the caliper.

(I think; iirc)

johnny3

Ok, so if you have Brembo brakes the caliper is threaded & bolt passes thru knuckle bracket, sorry for the confusion.
I've had several Acuras but none with Brenbos.

Bearcat94

Correct. Here are the service manual scans with the knuckle and the caliper removal: https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...11&postcount=2