Any idea what's wrong with my manual transmission? '06MT
10-24-2013, 02:51 PM
#1
Any idea what's wrong with my manual transmission? '06MT
I have an 06MT.
I can't shift into 1st gear.
If I shift into 2nd gear, as soon as a let go of the clutch, it pops out of gear. If I try to hold it in 2nd gear, it just makes grinding noises.
If I push the shifter towards 1st, the car will move forward (the same thing that happens if you try to shift into 1st gear without pressing the clutch pedal).
I can drive it from 3rd gear.
Reverse works.
The clutch was replaced 23 months ago.
I've been calling around to see how much the labor would cost, and I've been given times from 10 to 18 hours from Aamco. I wonder why they vary so much for the same job. I hope parts don't cost more than the labor. Any guesses as to what's wrong? Thanks in advance.
I can't shift into 1st gear.
If I shift into 2nd gear, as soon as a let go of the clutch, it pops out of gear. If I try to hold it in 2nd gear, it just makes grinding noises.
If I push the shifter towards 1st, the car will move forward (the same thing that happens if you try to shift into 1st gear without pressing the clutch pedal).
I can drive it from 3rd gear.
Reverse works.
The clutch was replaced 23 months ago.
I've been calling around to see how much the labor would cost, and I've been given times from 10 to 18 hours from Aamco. I wonder why they vary so much for the same job. I hope parts don't cost more than the labor. Any guesses as to what's wrong? Thanks in advance.
The following users liked this post:
robocam (11-06-2013)
10-24-2013, 03:03 PM
#4
the overexplainer
so with the clutch pushed in and when you try to shift into 1st the car starts to move? It almost sounds like the clutch isnt being disengaged when you push the clutch in. But that wont explain why you can get into "2nd".
I would start with the simple things first:
1. check your clutch fluid, is it low?
2. any other gears affected? can you get rolling in 3rd?
3. with the car off, can you get into the trouble gears?
I would start with the simple things first:
1. check your clutch fluid, is it low?
2. any other gears affected? can you get rolling in 3rd?
3. with the car off, can you get into the trouble gears?
10-24-2013, 03:11 PM
#5
I will check the fluid level. The clutch operates as expected in 3rd gear and reverse (I haven't checked other gears). The clutch and flywheel were replaced with genuine Honda parts at an Acura dealer.
10-24-2013, 03:17 PM
#6
the overexplainer
hm if other gears work OK then there probably is something going on mechanically inside.
if you're up to spend a few bucks on new fluid it might be worth draining the transmission to see what comes out.
or just get it towed and see what they find.
if you're up to spend a few bucks on new fluid it might be worth draining the transmission to see what comes out.
or just get it towed and see what they find.
10-24-2013, 03:27 PM
#7
That's what I was afraid of. If it's internal, I guess it's near worst case, and a shop will probably have to repair it.
The thing is, it seems like no one has ever been into these transmissions because they're so new. It's like the time when I had my heads worked on at the Acura dealer, and they told me it was their first time. Having an MT is rare enough but having one fail? Has anyone ever had their MT worked on before? I sure hope they know what they're doing.
Oh well.
The thing is, it seems like no one has ever been into these transmissions because they're so new. It's like the time when I had my heads worked on at the Acura dealer, and they told me it was their first time. Having an MT is rare enough but having one fail? Has anyone ever had their MT worked on before? I sure hope they know what they're doing.
Oh well.
Trending Topics
The following users liked this post:
robocam (11-06-2013)
10-24-2013, 03:32 PM
#9
Originally Posted by wiki.com
Most modern manual-transmission vehicles are fitted with a synchronized gear box. Transmission gears are always in mesh and rotating, but gears on one shaft can freely rotate or be locked to the shaft. The locking mechanism for a gear consists of a collar (or dog collar) on the shaft which is able to slide sideways so that teeth (or dogs) on its inner surface bridge two circular rings with teeth on their outer circumference: one attached to the gear, one to the shaft. When the rings are bridged by the collar, that particular gear is rotationally locked to the shaft and determines the output speed of the transmission. The gearshift lever manipulates the collars using a set of linkages, so arranged so that one collar may be permitted to lock only one gear at any one time; when "shifting gears", the locking collar from one gear is disengaged before that of another is engaged. One collar often serves for two gears; sliding in one direction selects one transmission speed, in the other direction selects another.
In a synchromesh gearbox, to correctly match the speed of the gear to that of the shaft as the gear is engaged the collar initially applies a force to a cone-shaped brass clutch attached to the gear, which brings the speeds to match prior to the collar locking into place. The collar is prevented from bridging the locking rings when the speeds are mismatched by synchro rings (also called blocker rings or baulk rings, the latter being spelled balk in the U.S.). The synchro ring rotates slightly due to the frictional torque from the cone clutch. In this position, the dog clutch is prevented from engaging. The brass clutch ring gradually causes parts to spin at the same speed. When they do spin the same speed, there is no more torque from the cone clutch and the dog clutch is allowed to fall into engagement. In a modern gearbox, the action of all of these components is so smooth and fast it is hardly noticed.
The modern cone system was developed by Porsche and introduced in the 1952 Porsche 356; cone synchronisers were called Porsche-type for many years after this. In the early 1950s, only the second-third shift was synchromesh in most cars, requiring only a single synchro and a simple linkage; drivers' manuals in cars suggested that if the driver needed to shift from second to first, it was best to come to a complete stop then shift into first and start up again. With continuing sophistication of mechanical development, fully synchromesh transmissions with three speeds, then four, and then five, became universal by the 1980s. Many modern manual transmission cars, especially sports cars, now offer six speeds. The 2012 Porsche 911 offers a seven-speed manual transmission, with the seventh gear intended for cruising- top speed being attained on sixth.
In a synchromesh gearbox, to correctly match the speed of the gear to that of the shaft as the gear is engaged the collar initially applies a force to a cone-shaped brass clutch attached to the gear, which brings the speeds to match prior to the collar locking into place. The collar is prevented from bridging the locking rings when the speeds are mismatched by synchro rings (also called blocker rings or baulk rings, the latter being spelled balk in the U.S.). The synchro ring rotates slightly due to the frictional torque from the cone clutch. In this position, the dog clutch is prevented from engaging. The brass clutch ring gradually causes parts to spin at the same speed. When they do spin the same speed, there is no more torque from the cone clutch and the dog clutch is allowed to fall into engagement. In a modern gearbox, the action of all of these components is so smooth and fast it is hardly noticed.
The modern cone system was developed by Porsche and introduced in the 1952 Porsche 356; cone synchronisers were called Porsche-type for many years after this. In the early 1950s, only the second-third shift was synchromesh in most cars, requiring only a single synchro and a simple linkage; drivers' manuals in cars suggested that if the driver needed to shift from second to first, it was best to come to a complete stop then shift into first and start up again. With continuing sophistication of mechanical development, fully synchromesh transmissions with three speeds, then four, and then five, became universal by the 1980s. Many modern manual transmission cars, especially sports cars, now offer six speeds. The 2012 Porsche 911 offers a seven-speed manual transmission, with the seventh gear intended for cruising- top speed being attained on sixth.
qft
10-24-2013, 03:32 PM
#10
Do you think I should ask them to replace all the gear sets since they already have it apart? Anything else to replace since they're already in there?
I also don't really like how soft the new clutch feels. Even after 23 months, it feels like it doesn't engage as hard like the original one did. I've read about removing the ball from the valve. Do you think I should do that or get an aftermarket clutch? If I get a new clutch, could I keep using my 23 month old flywheel? That thing is expensive.
I also don't really like how soft the new clutch feels. Even after 23 months, it feels like it doesn't engage as hard like the original one did. I've read about removing the ball from the valve. Do you think I should do that or get an aftermarket clutch? If I get a new clutch, could I keep using my 23 month old flywheel? That thing is expensive.
10-24-2013, 03:51 PM
#13
10-25-2013, 07:13 AM
#15
The DVD-A Script Guy
So my theory is your dragging clutch "helped" you toast your 2nd gear synchros. First I'd bleed the clutch. Forget about removing the check valve for now, it's not your issue. If that gets the pedal feel better and you are sure there's no drag then see how the shifting is. If you still have second gear issues you will probably need to get your MT repaired. At that point the person doing it should be able to evaluate the condition of your other synchros.
The following users liked this post:
justnspace (10-25-2013)
10-25-2013, 08:29 AM
#16
Senior Moderator
^ and to add to that a worn or bad pressure plate will do weird things as well. I was having to push harder to get it into first and the gears would grind going into 3rd (down shifting or up shifting) if higher rpm. A new pressure plate fixed all of that.
The following users liked this post:
JJH (10-25-2013)
10-25-2013, 08:37 AM
#17
With the clutch pedal down the car still inches forward if you push towards first? That sounds like a dragging clutch to me.
Soft is usually from air in the lines. An when bad enough won't allow the clutch to fully disengage (or drags) when used.
So my theory is your dragging clutch "helped" you toast your 2nd gear synchros. First I'd bleed the clutch. Forget about removing the check valve for now, it's not your issue. If that gets the pedal feel better and you are sure there's no drag then see how the shifting is. If you still have second gear issues you will probably need to get your MT repaired. At that point the person doing it should be able to evaluate the condition of your other synchros.
Soft is usually from air in the lines. An when bad enough won't allow the clutch to fully disengage (or drags) when used.
So my theory is your dragging clutch "helped" you toast your 2nd gear synchros. First I'd bleed the clutch. Forget about removing the check valve for now, it's not your issue. If that gets the pedal feel better and you are sure there's no drag then see how the shifting is. If you still have second gear issues you will probably need to get your MT repaired. At that point the person doing it should be able to evaluate the condition of your other synchros.
10-25-2013, 09:56 PM
#18
Sorry. I was wrong about that. It does not inch the car forward if the clutch pedal is depressed. I just checked.
I've had the dealer check the clutch but they told me it was fine. It's usually strong enough to spin the tires going from 1st to 2nd. I don't know if that means much.
Is it easy to tell if the synchros are ok by visual inspection?
I've had the dealer check the clutch but they told me it was fine. It's usually strong enough to spin the tires going from 1st to 2nd. I don't know if that means much.
Is it easy to tell if the synchros are ok by visual inspection?
With the clutch pedal down the car still inches forward if you push towards first? That sounds like a dragging clutch to me.
Soft is usually from air in the lines. An when bad enough won't allow the clutch to fully disengage (or drags) when used.
So my theory is your dragging clutch "helped" you toast your 2nd gear synchros. First I'd bleed the clutch. Forget about removing the check valve for now, it's not your issue. If that gets the pedal feel better and you are sure there's no drag then see how the shifting is. If you still have second gear issues you will probably need to get your MT repaired. At that point the person doing it should be able to evaluate the condition of your other synchros.
Soft is usually from air in the lines. An when bad enough won't allow the clutch to fully disengage (or drags) when used.
So my theory is your dragging clutch "helped" you toast your 2nd gear synchros. First I'd bleed the clutch. Forget about removing the check valve for now, it's not your issue. If that gets the pedal feel better and you are sure there's no drag then see how the shifting is. If you still have second gear issues you will probably need to get your MT repaired. At that point the person doing it should be able to evaluate the condition of your other synchros.
10-25-2013, 10:05 PM
#19
Thanks for all the replies everyone. I got curious tonight, so I went out and drove it a little, and here's what I found.
I started the engine, and then I tried to shift into 1st. No amount of force allowed me to do that. Then I drove away in 3rd. I tried 1st again, and it let me in! But then it kept kicking me out with a lot of force...so much force that it hurt my hand. After a few tries, it started to stay in 1st without popping out. Later, it would pop back out again but then it wouldn't pop back out at times.
In 2nd, any amount of power would cause it to pop back out. Any attempt at holding the shifter in 2nd would result in grinding noises.
All other gears (3, 4, 5, 6, R) worked fine. Shifting in and out of 1st is not smooth. I can feel all kinds of uneven resistance. After that, if I try to shift into reverse, sometimes I have to bang the shifter with my hand to get it to move to the right. Then it moves freely.
Question about the new 3rd gearset. Do I need to tell them to order the updated set or is the old problematic 3rd gearset no longer available so that I don't have to worry? Should I have them fill it with Acura transmission fluid, or should I have them fill it with GM fluid? I'm using GM fluid now.
I started the engine, and then I tried to shift into 1st. No amount of force allowed me to do that. Then I drove away in 3rd. I tried 1st again, and it let me in! But then it kept kicking me out with a lot of force...so much force that it hurt my hand. After a few tries, it started to stay in 1st without popping out. Later, it would pop back out again but then it wouldn't pop back out at times.
In 2nd, any amount of power would cause it to pop back out. Any attempt at holding the shifter in 2nd would result in grinding noises.
All other gears (3, 4, 5, 6, R) worked fine. Shifting in and out of 1st is not smooth. I can feel all kinds of uneven resistance. After that, if I try to shift into reverse, sometimes I have to bang the shifter with my hand to get it to move to the right. Then it moves freely.
Question about the new 3rd gearset. Do I need to tell them to order the updated set or is the old problematic 3rd gearset no longer available so that I don't have to worry? Should I have them fill it with Acura transmission fluid, or should I have them fill it with GM fluid? I'm using GM fluid now.
10-25-2013, 10:14 PM
#20
Would they have replaced the pressure plate when the clutch was replaced? I had it done at an Acura dealer with genuine Honda parts.
10-25-2013, 10:22 PM
#21
Would it be obvious to the technician what's wrong with the transmission when they have it apart? I found a shop that seems reputable, so I called them, and they told me that they couldn't remember the last time they've worked on a Honda manual transmission. This is the shop.
http://www.transmissionrepairstlouis.com/
My other option is to go with Aamco but the particular store I'm interested in has an F rating with the BBB although I've used them before with no problems (other than taking 1.5 months to finish an automatic transmission rebuild on a Volvo). I figured that big stores have more experience because they see more cars but then big chains have to operate as cheaply as possible to maximize profit. The guys in that other link look like people that care about what they do. In fact, they told me that they used to work at Aamco but quit because they did not agree with their business practices (to get the job done as cheaply as possible). They offer a 2-year warranty vs. Aamco's 1-year. I'm hoping that even though they've probably never looked at a TL's transmission that they'll know what to do when they get into it. Their website says they're trained to work on other foreign makes too, so that must mean something, and they also work on race cars too.
http://www.transmissionrepairstlouis.com/
My other option is to go with Aamco but the particular store I'm interested in has an F rating with the BBB although I've used them before with no problems (other than taking 1.5 months to finish an automatic transmission rebuild on a Volvo). I figured that big stores have more experience because they see more cars but then big chains have to operate as cheaply as possible to maximize profit. The guys in that other link look like people that care about what they do. In fact, they told me that they used to work at Aamco but quit because they did not agree with their business practices (to get the job done as cheaply as possible). They offer a 2-year warranty vs. Aamco's 1-year. I'm hoping that even though they've probably never looked at a TL's transmission that they'll know what to do when they get into it. Their website says they're trained to work on other foreign makes too, so that must mean something, and they also work on race cars too.
I thought it sounded like your clutch was dragging too. Might be due to air in the hydraulic system, a defective release bearing, bent clutch disc, defective master cylinder, or a worn pilot shaft. I'm betting against the later and the defective release bearing since that was likely replaced at the time of your clutch install.
Last edited by robocam; 10-25-2013 at 10:31 PM.
10-25-2013, 11:55 PM
#23
Team Owner
so with the clutch pushed in and when you try to shift into 1st the car starts to move? It almost sounds like the clutch isnt being disengaged when you push the clutch in. But that wont explain why you can get into "2nd".
I would start with the simple things first:
1. check your clutch fluid, is it low?
2. any other gears affected? can you get rolling in 3rd?
3. with the car off, can you get into the trouble gears?
I would start with the simple things first:
1. check your clutch fluid, is it low?
2. any other gears affected? can you get rolling in 3rd?
3. with the car off, can you get into the trouble gears?
10-26-2013, 12:33 AM
#24
Team Owner
I only have a second but trust me when I say you will get very little for your money with aamco. They don't do manual transmissions, they usually look for a local shop to do the work. When I rebuilt automatic transmissions a lifetime ago, aamco called a rebuild what we called a patch job. A patch job to us was to open up the transmission and fix only what is wrong and we did it at a deeply discounted price. That is a full rebuild to them and they charge full price.
The following users liked this post:
robocam (10-26-2013)
10-26-2013, 12:36 AM
#25
http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pa...kills-synchros
Good read ^
Good read ^
Improper clutch adjustment, or dragging clutch assembly, will destroy your new unit. Damaged synchros due to improper clutch engagement will VOID YOUR WARRANTY!! If we receive the unit back damaged due to the clutch, we will know! 95% of all transmission failures are caused by clutch related issues. It is terribly important that the vehicle does not have clutch drag. To test is simple:
With the vehicle running, disengage the e-brake so it can roll.
Push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor and hold it there.
Turn off your launch limiter so the engine can hit the rev limiter. You MUST DO THIS!! If you do not, then there is no point in performing this test.
Shift the car into 1st gear.
Rev the engine up, while the clutch pedal is depressed all the way to the floor, until you feel the car start to move forward.
If the vehicle moves forward below the rev limiter, your clutch is dragging. Do not drive until the problem is fixed, or your synchros will be ruined! Unit will also be hard to shift, so DON’T DRIVE OR FORCE IT INTO GEAR! If everything is correct, the vehicle will not move. If the vehicle moves forward or is hard to shift, check each of the following:
With the vehicle running, disengage the e-brake so it can roll.
Push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor and hold it there.
Turn off your launch limiter so the engine can hit the rev limiter. You MUST DO THIS!! If you do not, then there is no point in performing this test.
Shift the car into 1st gear.
Rev the engine up, while the clutch pedal is depressed all the way to the floor, until you feel the car start to move forward.
If the vehicle moves forward below the rev limiter, your clutch is dragging. Do not drive until the problem is fixed, or your synchros will be ruined! Unit will also be hard to shift, so DON’T DRIVE OR FORCE IT INTO GEAR! If everything is correct, the vehicle will not move. If the vehicle moves forward or is hard to shift, check each of the following:
The following users liked this post:
robocam (10-26-2013)
10-26-2013, 01:22 PM
#26
I actually have not brought my TL to anyone yet because I'm trying to decide which shop to take it to. The dealer typically charges much higher prices, and I figure that they've never worked on this transmission before, so I don't know if paying the premium is getting me anything better.
This place looks like a good shop.
http://www.transmissionrepairstlouis.com/
But they are also inexperienced with this particular transmission, so I'm not sure what to make of that. From looking around their webpage, they seem competent with automatics but I don't know if those skills can translate over to manuals.
This place looks like a good shop.
http://www.transmissionrepairstlouis.com/
But they are also inexperienced with this particular transmission, so I'm not sure what to make of that. From looking around their webpage, they seem competent with automatics but I don't know if those skills can translate over to manuals.
10-26-2013, 01:31 PM
#27
Thanks for that. I will have to try that engine revving test. But I wonder if the rev limiter will allow a high enough engine RPM for this test to be valid (because it limits it to something around 5000 RPM at idle). Is there another way to know if the clutch is dragging? I sure hope the shop knows what they're doing. After seeing that site, it makes me want to call around to see if there are shops that specialize or have more experience with manuals but calling every shop in town seems like too much trouble. There are so many, and who knows if they're telling the truth. Anyway, thanks again!
10-26-2013, 01:35 PM
#28
Now why would a manual transmission kick you out of a gear after it has already been successfully engaged? Something wrong with the dogteeth?
10-26-2013, 02:06 PM
#29
10-26-2013, 02:22 PM
#30
The DVD-A Script Guy
The only other thing I can think of could be a shift cable/linkage issue but I tend to doubt it given the issues you seem to have with the clutch. So I'll slightly revise what I suggested before. Get the clutch squared away and make sure the shift cable/linkages are good. If you still have 1st/2nd gear issues you will probably need to get your MT repaired
At this point I don't think any of us can really advise you any more as to what to do. You have some homework and decisions to make. No amount of additional questions or suppositions is going to heal your car. If I had no other trusted options in my area to do the work I'd probably use an Acura (or maybe Honda) dealer to do the work. I don't like going to the dealer but my belief is they probably have worked more on your particular car than other places. It's not like 6MT 3G TLs are that common and would just roll into lots of indies for gear work.
10-26-2013, 04:00 PM
#31
Team Owner
You could do tests that a sane person would do instead of sitting the car on the limiter lol. Turn the engine off. If it engages gears easier the clutch is part of the problem. If that test is inconclusive you can try the revving but I would never do it. You will always have some drag with the clutch pushed in assuming it uses a pilot bearing. It could be several things and even if the clutch drag caused the problem, chances are you're going to have to open the transmission up anyway.
Have you thought about using the GM fluid to help with the engagement problems? It's not likely to help the popping out of gear but it might help to limp it along for a little longer.
Have you thought about using the GM fluid to help with the engagement problems? It's not likely to help the popping out of gear but it might help to limp it along for a little longer.
10-26-2013, 05:05 PM
#32
Ok, I just tried the rev test. I came to a complete stop on a surface and let go of the brakes. The car did not roll forwards or backwards. Then I revved up to the limiter at 5500 RPM while in 1st, and there was no sign of movement. I tried it several times, and held it there (at 5500 RPM) for a few seconds to make sure. Then I put it in 3rd and started rolling so that I could get it to 7000 RPM. There was no detectable change in rolling speed while the engine was at 7000RPM (no acceleration). Is this enough to take the clutch out of the equation?
10-26-2013, 05:29 PM
#33
I just checked to see if having the engine on or off would make a difference. My impression is that it doesn't seem to make a difference. Sometimes it's as if there's a lockout on 1st where no matter how hard I tried to push it into 1st, it wouldn't go in even if the engine was not running.
I'm pretty sure shifting in and out of 3, 4, 5, 6, R feels much smoother than trying to in and out of 1.
I have actually been using the GM fluid since the beginning because I had the 3rd gear problem.
I wonder if there is any chance a low fluid level could have caused this. I had Dobbs replace both front axles, and according to the service manual pages posted on this site, fluid should have leaked out when the axles were removed but I asked Dobbs if they needed extra GM fluid, and they told me no additional fluid was necessary.
I'm pretty sure shifting in and out of 3, 4, 5, 6, R feels much smoother than trying to in and out of 1.
I have actually been using the GM fluid since the beginning because I had the 3rd gear problem.
I wonder if there is any chance a low fluid level could have caused this. I had Dobbs replace both front axles, and according to the service manual pages posted on this site, fluid should have leaked out when the axles were removed but I asked Dobbs if they needed extra GM fluid, and they told me no additional fluid was necessary.
You could do tests that a sane person would do instead of sitting the car on the limiter lol. Turn the engine off. If it engages gears easier the clutch is part of the problem. If that test is inconclusive you can try the revving but I would never do it. You will always have some drag with the clutch pushed in assuming it uses a pilot bearing. It could be several things and even if the clutch drag caused the problem, chances are you're going to have to open the transmission up anyway.
Have you thought about using the GM fluid to help with the engagement problems? It's not likely to help the popping out of gear but it might help to limp it along for a little longer.
Have you thought about using the GM fluid to help with the engagement problems? It's not likely to help the popping out of gear but it might help to limp it along for a little longer.
10-26-2013, 05:50 PM
#34
I called my Acura dealer, and they told me that they could only remember working on 1 manual transmission. It was for an Integra, and the bill was over $5000 but the guy heavily modified it. They also tried to look for a reman unit but they said they weren't available from a place called H & A.
I guess my car's going to be a guinea pig for them again. I'm leaning towards taking it to the dealer. Even though they charge $139/hour vs. $95-105/hour for the other places, I feel a little safer with them. The last time I had it in for head work, the engine looked close to brand new when I got it back. They do a quality job, and I get to play with a loaner car (last time I had the loaner for over 3 weeks! I've had a TL-SH and an MDX, lots of fun - maybe this time I'll try the ZDX).
I wonder if I could get them to cover the 3rd gearset on goodwill. Last time I asked about it, they told me to ask again in the future after I've spent more money with them. Well, it's $6000+ later, so I hope they will help me out.
I know this won't heal my car but I'm just a little curious about the whole thing (I studied mechanical engineering, so these things interest me), and I want to be prepared so that I don't get ripped off. I do appreciate your advice, and the advice that others have offered.
I guess my car's going to be a guinea pig for them again. I'm leaning towards taking it to the dealer. Even though they charge $139/hour vs. $95-105/hour for the other places, I feel a little safer with them. The last time I had it in for head work, the engine looked close to brand new when I got it back. They do a quality job, and I get to play with a loaner car (last time I had the loaner for over 3 weeks! I've had a TL-SH and an MDX, lots of fun - maybe this time I'll try the ZDX).
I wonder if I could get them to cover the 3rd gearset on goodwill. Last time I asked about it, they told me to ask again in the future after I've spent more money with them. Well, it's $6000+ later, so I hope they will help me out.
I know this won't heal my car but I'm just a little curious about the whole thing (I studied mechanical engineering, so these things interest me), and I want to be prepared so that I don't get ripped off. I do appreciate your advice, and the advice that others have offered.
Yes more expensive but they probably have worked on this type of transmission since there's a TSB for 3rd gear issues.
The only other thing I can think of could be a shift cable/linkage issue but I tend to doubt it given the issues you seem to have with the clutch. So I'll slightly revise what I suggested before. Get the clutch squared away and make sure the shift cable/linkages are good. If you still have 1st/2nd gear issues you will probably need to get your MT repaired
At this point I don't think any of us can really advise you any more as to what to do. You have some homework and decisions to make. No amount of additional questions or suppositions is going to heal your car. If I had no other trusted options in my area to do the work I'd probably use an Acura (or maybe Honda) dealer to do the work. I don't like going to the dealer but my belief is they probably have worked more on your particular car than other places. It's not like 6MT 3G TLs are that common and would just roll into lots of indies for gear work.
The only other thing I can think of could be a shift cable/linkage issue but I tend to doubt it given the issues you seem to have with the clutch. So I'll slightly revise what I suggested before. Get the clutch squared away and make sure the shift cable/linkages are good. If you still have 1st/2nd gear issues you will probably need to get your MT repaired
At this point I don't think any of us can really advise you any more as to what to do. You have some homework and decisions to make. No amount of additional questions or suppositions is going to heal your car. If I had no other trusted options in my area to do the work I'd probably use an Acura (or maybe Honda) dealer to do the work. I don't like going to the dealer but my belief is they probably have worked more on your particular car than other places. It's not like 6MT 3G TLs are that common and would just roll into lots of indies for gear work.
10-26-2013, 06:06 PM
#35
Based on the dealership having no more experience than an independent shop and charging 33-50% more for labor, I would just find a reputable independent transmission shop. Perhaps a performance shop that is likely to have seen more manual transmissions than autos. I paid $1,205.00 for new clutch, flywheel, rear main seal, axles, water pump, timing belt, front main seal, rear main seal, cam seals, thermostat, and tensioners and the work was A+. $65/hour labor. Just something to think about.
10-26-2013, 06:06 PM
#36
Racer
It is understandable that they've only really opened up one transmission before. Usually when something catastrophic happens and the transmission is having seriously problems (Like in the late 90s and early 2000s) it's easier for Acura and the customer if the technician simply replaces the transmission and is done with it.
As for spending over 6 grand in the Acura service department, that is certainly on your side as far as good will goes. If they were to say no, it would honestly surprise me. Even if they aren't able to fix the problem, the fact that you're taking it to Acura also will help you out when asking for a favor.
As for spending over 6 grand in the Acura service department, that is certainly on your side as far as good will goes. If they were to say no, it would honestly surprise me. Even if they aren't able to fix the problem, the fact that you're taking it to Acura also will help you out when asking for a favor.
10-26-2013, 06:21 PM
#37
Is that price for parts and labor??? 
Based on the dealership having no more experience than an independent shop and charging 33-50% more for labor, I would just find a reputable independent transmission shop. Perhaps a performance shop that is likely to have seen more manual transmissions than autos. I paid $1,205.00 for new clutch, flywheel, rear main seal, axles, water pump, timing belt, front main seal, rear main seal, cam seals, thermostat, and tensioners and the work was A+. $65/hour labor. Just something to think about.
10-26-2013, 08:36 PM
#39
robocam,
Just for the fun of it, give the vendor JJH mentioned (Jacks Transmissions) a call. They have a very good reputation in both the EVO and GT-R worlds and perhaps they could at least point you towards a reputable shop in your area (as they are based in Colorado).
Alternatively, there is another vendor (http://www.synchrotech-transmissions.com/) that I have heard of from the Honda Tech forums. They seem to have a good reputation in the Honda world, so perhaps they could be of some assistance.
Another idea you could pursue is finding a reputable shop that can take the transmission out of the car and then send it out to reputable tranny shop (for example, Jacks). I would imagine the cost of doing something like this would be high, but probably less than that of an Acura dealership pulling the tranny and rebuilding it.
Also if it means anything, I can provide a basic technical description of how a synchronized manual transmission works. First, here are a few pictures of a Honda Fit 5MT I took apart over the summer: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oa9oa3cj9j4n8b4/dqpTzscW1h
Some of the shots are blurry - but pictures 117 - 119 (about 3/4 down the page) show how a synchronizer (or "synchro") works. Basically, it is a collar that slides over a small set of teeth that are physically attached to the selectable gear - the black "dog" teeth attached to both 3rd gear (the gear on the bottom) and 4th gear (the gear on the top) in the pictures. Each selectable gear rides on a bearing, allowing it to freewheel on one of the transmission's shafts. Note, that means the gear can spin freely - gears do not move up or down or anything like that (except for reverse). In this case, all front wheel drive transmissions have two shafts - an input and an output shaft. While all gears in the transmission are constantly touching (or, meshing with) one another as seen in the pictures, the synchronizer acts as a "clutch" - allowing power to be either transmitted from one gear on one shaft to another gear on another shaft, or to not be transmitted at all.
When you move the shifter, you are moving the synchronizer collar over the gear's dog teeth. In other words, when you move the shifter from neutral to 1st gear, you are sliding the collar from the middle (neutral) position onto and over the dog teeth attached to 1st gear. This effectively "locks" the freewheeling gear to shaft, thus allowing power to be transmitted to another shaft or through the shaft and out to the differential (the big ass gear seen in the pictures).
What happens is that, over time, the dog teeth attached to a selectable gear can become worn down. The actual synchronizer collar can also become messed up over time, which can cause issues. Also, the synchro ring (the gold colored ring of teeth) also wears down over time. This happens because the syncrho ring acts as a brake pad by assisting the synchro collar in slowing down or accelerating the gear being selected. The wear on all of these parts is accelerated by (you guessed it) improper use of the clutch, an incorrectly adjusted or installed clutch, poor maintenance, etc. This is also why you are instructed to always shift using the clutch in a synchronized transmission. The small dog teeth seen in the pictures are not designed to deal with engine torque - which is why a clutch is needed (to disable the flow of torque from the engine to the transmission when shifting gears). The grinding noise you are hearing is most likely the syncho collar not being able to select the dog teeth on either the gear or the synchro ring (or both). Fun fact: when you shift and "grind gears", you are not actually grinding the gear sets themselves, but the dog teeth in the synchronizer assembly.
Anyways, that is a crash course in synchronized manual transmissions. I know it sounds complicated, but they are actually very straightforward once you get to look at one in person. If I stated anything incorrectly, perhaps a member with tranny rebuild experience can correct me or add onto my description.
Good luck with your transmission robocam - please keep us up to date.
PS: How many miles are on your car?
Just for the fun of it, give the vendor JJH mentioned (Jacks Transmissions) a call. They have a very good reputation in both the EVO and GT-R worlds and perhaps they could at least point you towards a reputable shop in your area (as they are based in Colorado).
Alternatively, there is another vendor (http://www.synchrotech-transmissions.com/) that I have heard of from the Honda Tech forums. They seem to have a good reputation in the Honda world, so perhaps they could be of some assistance.
Another idea you could pursue is finding a reputable shop that can take the transmission out of the car and then send it out to reputable tranny shop (for example, Jacks). I would imagine the cost of doing something like this would be high, but probably less than that of an Acura dealership pulling the tranny and rebuilding it.
Also if it means anything, I can provide a basic technical description of how a synchronized manual transmission works. First, here are a few pictures of a Honda Fit 5MT I took apart over the summer: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oa9oa3cj9j4n8b4/dqpTzscW1h
Some of the shots are blurry - but pictures 117 - 119 (about 3/4 down the page) show how a synchronizer (or "synchro") works. Basically, it is a collar that slides over a small set of teeth that are physically attached to the selectable gear - the black "dog" teeth attached to both 3rd gear (the gear on the bottom) and 4th gear (the gear on the top) in the pictures. Each selectable gear rides on a bearing, allowing it to freewheel on one of the transmission's shafts. Note, that means the gear can spin freely - gears do not move up or down or anything like that (except for reverse). In this case, all front wheel drive transmissions have two shafts - an input and an output shaft. While all gears in the transmission are constantly touching (or, meshing with) one another as seen in the pictures, the synchronizer acts as a "clutch" - allowing power to be either transmitted from one gear on one shaft to another gear on another shaft, or to not be transmitted at all.
When you move the shifter, you are moving the synchronizer collar over the gear's dog teeth. In other words, when you move the shifter from neutral to 1st gear, you are sliding the collar from the middle (neutral) position onto and over the dog teeth attached to 1st gear. This effectively "locks" the freewheeling gear to shaft, thus allowing power to be transmitted to another shaft or through the shaft and out to the differential (the big ass gear seen in the pictures).
What happens is that, over time, the dog teeth attached to a selectable gear can become worn down. The actual synchronizer collar can also become messed up over time, which can cause issues. Also, the synchro ring (the gold colored ring of teeth) also wears down over time. This happens because the syncrho ring acts as a brake pad by assisting the synchro collar in slowing down or accelerating the gear being selected. The wear on all of these parts is accelerated by (you guessed it) improper use of the clutch, an incorrectly adjusted or installed clutch, poor maintenance, etc. This is also why you are instructed to always shift using the clutch in a synchronized transmission. The small dog teeth seen in the pictures are not designed to deal with engine torque - which is why a clutch is needed (to disable the flow of torque from the engine to the transmission when shifting gears). The grinding noise you are hearing is most likely the syncho collar not being able to select the dog teeth on either the gear or the synchro ring (or both). Fun fact: when you shift and "grind gears", you are not actually grinding the gear sets themselves, but the dog teeth in the synchronizer assembly.
Anyways, that is a crash course in synchronized manual transmissions. I know it sounds complicated, but they are actually very straightforward once you get to look at one in person. If I stated anything incorrectly, perhaps a member with tranny rebuild experience can correct me or add onto my description.
Good luck with your transmission robocam - please keep us up to date.
PS: How many miles are on your car?
The following users liked this post:
robocam (10-27-2013)
10-26-2013, 11:11 PM
#40
Drifting
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Age: 42
Posts: 3,490
Received 853 Likes
on
606 Posts
I wonder if it might be more worthwhile to find a junked TL and just swap in a new transmission. Finding a scrapped 6-speed wouldn't be easy, but I wonder if the price for the tranny and swap would be cheaper - plus it might actually be better than rebuilding the damaged one you have in there now.