In this chapter...

My 2004 TL is having an abnormal amount of vibration at high speeds. It was getting worse and more noticable over time. The facts:

I drive the car about 300 miles per week. 250 of them on the highway at speeds from 65-90 (PA turnpike).
The alignment has been out since I bought the car a few months ago. I put about 5,000 miles on it so far. Vibrations mostly appeared the past 500 miles or so. Steering wheel is About 2 degrees to the left.
The car does have the usual vibration when cold at 55, this is entirely seperate but maybe compounding.
I got a wheel balance on all four wheels. This has made it about 50% better, but I am still getting heavy vibration now isolated between 70-80, but sometimes at other speeds too.
I had the tires rotated and the ones with more tread put in front.

I am going to get an alignment, because it has needed it, but I dont expect that to fix the vibrations. I also think the wheels are messed up from the PO. It has lots of curb rash on all of them.

What else can cause this? I am thinking about having the suspension looked at. I dont know a lot about suspension. I am more knowledgable in engines. Maybe a motor mount? I am thinking it is unforetunately a combination of things, but I dont want to just throw money at it. I have probably $300 to work with. Hoping not to get another balance...

 

if you planning to replace the suspension then I would wait on the alignment. It could be several thing like worn motor mount, control arm, ball joints, sway bar end link/ bushing. struts, bent wheel, bad wheel baring drive axle. I would check the tires and the wheel then ball joints as first suspect.

 

i have the same problem on an 04. I just took it to have a balance done on all 4 wheels to see if they could even balance them. I have one wheel bent badly, and 2 others bent. I have the factory 5 spoke 17 inch wheels. I hate them, they have always leaked air pressure too. I'm changing wheels. best of luck to you. check your wheels for straightness.

 

chances are your going to need more than 300 to fix this problem, it could be a lot of things, and more often then not it turns into a rat race trying to fix it

 

My experience with high speed vibrations was caused by a badly bent front right wheel that I only noticed when driving at highway speeds. This is definitely often compounded by a poor alignment.

At the same token it can definitely be worn suspension components - often badly frayed front lower control arm bushings and rear control arm bushings could be the culprit. Best plan of action is to have the car inspected by a reputable shop that you know will be honest with you, double check the components yourself and form a plan of action part replacement wise from there.

 

Finding a truly reputable shop in Philly is so hard. I have a few decent mechanics. I know one place that is mad good high end custom shop but they are more than an hours drive. Money isnt an issue, I can spend more I just dont want to waste by boiling the sea.

It was a good point to replace parts before alignment. Just gotta find a better shop by Friday. I am going to take it then and have them look at the suspension, possibly fix stuff, then get the alignment. I had an STS shop do the balancing because IMHO unless they have a road force machine, which I cant find someone that has one, then a balance is a balance. I think the wheels on this car are horrible. I came from real deal BBS wheels in excellent condition on my last car. Pretty dissapointing.

Anyone know of a good suspension shop in Northeast Philadelphia?

 

Balancing only accounts for out-of-round conditions within the tires and will do nothing for the condition should it originate in the wheels.

Don't waste your time with a suspension shop or balancing umpteen different ways - check the WHEELS measured for out-of-round.

 

I am actually thinking it might be in the axel. The vibration sometimes changes when turning, but just so slightly. Balancing the wheels did make it a little better. Its harder to tell now because its not as noticable.

It seems like its not always at the same speeds but varies. Does that make sense for it to be in the axels?

Im going to try to get under there and check out the suspension even though im thinking its not that. Maybe I can at least rule out a few things.

 

The vibration you are having sounds like it's coming from a few spots. I'm going to need you to help me help you:

1. Do you feel the vibration in the seat, steering wheel or both?

2. You mentioned it is apparent from 70MPH-80MPH, does it stop after 80? Come back?

3. What brand tires and age?

4. Is the vibration during acceleration only?

Here are my thoughts so far:

1. You have a bad alignment that's wearing the tires unevenly. You need to get this fixed ASAP. the longer you wait, the faster your current tires will go bad and will need to be replaced.

2. Did you get a Hunter Road Force Balance? The TL is very sensitive to vibrations (I had one from the wheel being off by a few grams). The RF balancing puts weight on the tire and is much more accurate. Most discount Tire stores use them.

3. Did you check the wheels for bends? A vibration at particular speeds (60-70) only is 99% of the time a bent wheel. Even a small one that's not visible to the eye (visible once you put it next to a machine to check it) can cause these problems.

4. The tires could be going bad, when a tire has a cord that starts to separate, the balance of the tire changes causing issues. It doesn't sound like that's what you have but how old are the tires? There's a 4 digit date code on the side of the tire. It states the year and the week the tire was made. Anything older than 5 years is dangerous to drive on.

5. Check out the front compliance bushings on your car. They probably need to be replaced (around every 50K is my recommendation). Get an alignment after you replace the bushings.

6. The shocks could be at the end of their life. How many miles on the car? Best to get an alignment once after doing all the suspension work and new tires.

 

Thank you for trying to help me I'm going to respond to each of your questions/statements, section A and B, and hopefully it will shed some more light on this:

1A. The vibration is heavily in the steering wheel. The entire car does shake, but I can tell that it is coming through the wheel, very confident it is in the front end. I believe they rotated the tires when balancing them and now the newer tires are on front, but I am still getting vibration, it went down a lot though maybe by 50-60%.

2A. It is now mostly between 70-80, but can be felt if you know what you're looking for from 55-70 sometimes. At 80 it stops almost entirely, then at 90 it comes back. I only know this because I tested it once at that speed to see. I assume it will get worse beyond 95mph. Mostly I'm babying it below these vibrating speeds to save it wear.

3A. Michilin Primacy MXM 235/45/R17. Don't know the age, I can check though. Came with the car, bought it 5-6K miles ago. The tires looked very new and I consider them to be good tires, good overall all around tires. I have owned all seasons, perf. all seasons, and summer sports tires and these are pretty good. Fronts are still at 8mm and backs at 6-7mm. Those ones in the back were at the front. I honestly think they had 10-15K maybe less when I bought the car.

4A. It is almost entirely irrelevant to the acceleration, braking, and for the most part steering. It maybe gets slightly worse when you give it a lot of gas. If you are going 75 you hear it and feel it no matter what you do gas, brake, coast, turn, radio up. Lol, but it is not that bad. I want to fix it before it wears things out though.

1B. Hoping to get it in to a shop this weekend or Monday. Waiting to get my check Friday, but I am working so much I don't have a lot of time to take it in. Nor do I have the energy to do much.

2B. This I am not sure about. I didn't see them do the actual balancing part, there were other cars in the way. I don't think they used that machine. I went to STS if that means anything.

3B. Bending is possible, definitely not ruled out. The wheels are messed up big time from curb rash and I have also hit some major pot holes and probably bottomed it out right after I bought it. Can't tell if they are bent for sure, didn't have the shop check. At the time I believed the balancing would fix it as I have had that work in the past on other cars.

4B. I'm not sure how old they are. That is good to know, I will check it out later. My gut feeling is that they are less than 2 years old. The previous owner used this car daily and put 128,000 miles on before I got it. There's a major service listed on the car fax, but it's vague around 119,000 miles. That is all I have to go off of for this bad boy.

5B. I will try to see what I can see. I could probably jack it up in the parking lot and take a look otherwise I'll get a shop to inspect the suspension.

6B. The car has about 133,000 miles. 04 6spd. Base stock. I don't think it will be major like that, because the car is very drivable, but if I keep driving it 50-60 miles a day and at 75MPH it will shortly become more expensive to fix and possibly undrivable, which I hope to avoid.

 

Taking it back to the shop today. Hopefully I find out something. Will post if I do.

 

Well it turns out they did not do the job right the first time and the tires were not cleaned and balanced properly. I also got the alignment done and they said that the right rear is out of spec because one of the arms is going bad. Its at like -1.78 rear toe and the total toe is out of spec too. They said I could likely drive the car like this without problem for a while. What do you guys think about this?

They only charged me for the alignment and lifting the car so now I might have a little left over I could mend the rear or do some more maintenance. Im thinking coolant flush and another oil change, then try to fix the noisy power steering pump, thinking its the o ring.

 

I would just replace both the toe arms with new OEM arms. They can often be seized and it will often be present in cars from northern states or Canada (in my case, both toe arms were seized, but at least both had been previously aligned properly so that the toe was out, but was even on both sides).

Make sure you replace it with all new Honda hardware as well, and a neat trick that my mechanic that does my alignments showed me (and he owns a 1000 hp Supra that he built and maintains himself if that counts for anything ) is clear coating the toe arms so that they don't seize from road salt, grime etc.

 

a rough way to check for bent wheels is to put the car on jack stands, and have the car on Drive. It'll spin the wheels at about 10mph. You can then get out of the car and visually inspect if the wheels are out of round. You have to look carefully at the outside and inner barrel. If you dont feel comfortable having the car in drive, you could also do it with the rears, and spin the wheels by hand

 

bad toe will wear the tires baldly causing all sorts of issues. Buy new arms (one for each side) and get it fixed asap. Any update on the vibration? Is it a lot better?

 

Tires, bad balance, bad wheel, or compliance bushings. Whatever it is, it is on the outside, not the inside (aka axles).

 

If I needed new bars, I'd purchase an aftermarket set so that toe and camber can be adjusted.

As far as wheel balancing, look for one of these in your area. Many years ago our '04 needed the use of the wheel hole balancing adapter, not the center hole, been perfect ever since always using the adapter.
Hunter GSP9700 Wheel vibration Control System solves wheel vibration and tire pull problems that balancers and aligners can't fix

 

Thank you guys for the responses. I am still fighting the good fight against vibrations

Now that I have gone back to the shop for the THIRD TIME, I am now being told that 3 out of 4 of my wheels are bent. So I asked them to show me. This shop only has the machine that spins the tire and I looked at the worst wheel and I can see that the lip is not perfect. What boggles my mind is that the ride was better before all of this.

The vibes are now only above 70 really and only actually bad enough to see the wheel slightly move between 75-80. I am trying to figure out if this is correctable without purchasing all new wheels. I was reading up on the Hunter Road Force machine and they say they measure force from road sources and multiple axis. Can a machine like this likely put a very slightly bent wheel back into proper running condition at all speeds?




Other part with the alignment, I was wrong it's not toe it is my CAMBER: My specs for the wheel out of camber is -1.78 and the range is listed as -0.50 to -1.50. Also the TOTAL TOE is wrong, -0.49 and should be -0.16 to +0.16. This is all according to an STS tire place so I don't know how much of it to believe. The actual numbers from the computer yes, but the variances and if it's out by an amount that will damage the tires I don't know. I'm very skeptical of things I am not fully educated on lol. So I come to Acurazine for help.

TLDR: Can a Huter Road Force machine balance a slightly bent wheel? And is -1.78 camber too much?

 

Okay I made an appointment at Davis Acura. It's not til Monday. They have the Hunter Road Force machine with the touch screen thinger that's supposed to be the best, so if that doesn't make it straight and narrow I don't know what else to do.

They're also going to separate all of wheels and tires and clean them out. Then inspect them all and do the balance on the machine. I'll let you guys know if it works!

Never brought the car to an Acura dealership either so maybe also I will review that.

 

ANy update?

 

No. The weights will dampen irregularities along the rotational axis, but everything along a lateral plane will still be there.

 

YES PLEASE HELP! I am still getting vibrations at 80+, it comes and goes in intensity after 80, but never entirely leaves once past 80.

I went to Davis Acura, and I got good service. They used the Hunter Road Force machine and they said that none of the wheels are bent or misshapen in a way that would cause vibration. They said that the tires and wheels were able to be balanced up 100% on the machine. And that when they drove the vehicle it drove smooth for them, BUT they said they cannot drive beyond the 55mph speed limit.

Drove it on the turnpike and it STILL vibrates. It's not AS bad, but it is not acceptable. The dealership did what I asked so I am not mad at them, but I am pissed because I have basically pissed away almost $400 trying to get this fixed and I am not seeing a solution.

I am not even sure what to look at next. I am due for inspection in October so maybe I will just take it for that and ask if while it's there they can inspect the driveline and suspension. Is this a good idea? Is there something I can attempt to look at while at home? Maybe I should ask to set up an appointment to drive them on the turnpike? That is so ridiculous, but I drive 50 miles on it 5 or 6 times a week just for work, so I need the car to drive right. This is an expensive car for me lol, I just want it to work right and not drive like my other car, a shitty cavalier.



In other news I did like the dealership there, very nice and decently knowledgable staff. Seems like STS was just out to rip me off and when they could not fix the problem made up a story about my wheels being bent to get me to go away. Or buy new wheels lol, they tried to sell me wheels. HA okay, let me just shell out money and not have my problem fixed and then you ask me to spend more money??? NO WAY. All I've learned is just another place NOT to go. Add that to millions of other shops I hate here. Why is it so hard to find some decent shops nowadays.

 

Nobody?

 

This thread helped me out, thanks to the Acurazine family.

 

Vibrations at highway speeds are...

Tires not balanced
Bent rim
Excessive wear at cv joints

 

One thing to consider. Drive the same route with a different car. Many times it is the road. The heavy trucks are making ashpalt roads wavy. Remember the sections where your TL has vibration issues, and go the same speed with another vehicle. It is a process of elimination!

Doug

 

WTH, you want the car to drive nice but you're not fixing the stuff the shop is telling you thats bad?

Camber out at rear
A bent rim

The bent rim will definitely play a role and worn tires too.

Do this and be done with it...

Fix the camber issue

Replace the drive shafts/cv joints

If vibration is still present... replace the wheel... still present replace the tires.

 

Well you obviously didnt read the whole thing, which is understandable because it is very long. I dont think the wheels are bent. I was told that camber will not cause vibration. Thank you for your input though. I can try have the cv joints and driveshafts inspected.

 

On paper camber will not cause vibration. However, if the defect has slop it can cause vibration. Also if it's sitting lower than normal then the opposite corner is riding higher than normally. Which will put abnormal stress on the cv joint.

Thinking and is are two different things. If the wheel is out of true the car will never be smooth.

 

Exactly. I have been told different things by different shops. I am leaning more towards the dealership with the Hunter Road Force as being more reliable, so that is why I think that.

It certainly is possible the cv joint is worn because of the camber. My car is stock right now. I have been reading and learning about toe and camber. Since I might need parts to fix the camber do you think there is any benefit in ordering an aftermarket kit and adjusting the camber? Or is the OEM setting optimal for the OEM suspension. I am not thinking about getting a whole new suspension, but maybe some spacers. First I want to get it fixed but if I am getting new parts I want to know whats available.

 

i had a similar problem... got my tires balanced and aligned, then balanced again... still had vibration...
Turned out that my break rotors where warped... when you break, does your steering wheel rotate left/right? if so, then it could be your rotors. I was very surprised rotors could cause this... but the vibration is gone now (95% of it anyway).

One thing i've learned from this experience is that when you take you car to the garage or Acura, dont tell them what the solution is, just tell them the car is vibrating and you need it fixed. This way if they try something and its not the right thing then u can get mad at them :P

Sounds to me that your tires/mags are in a bad shape... so its probable that this could be the problem.

Good luck and keep us updated! i know how frustrating this can be especially when driving long distance on the highway.

 

Thank you, it is very frustrating. I am pretty responsible about it though, if I keep it to 65mph there are no vibrations, I don't want to chance making it worse but I need to drive it. It's hard with this V6 though, it's so easy to dip into the throttle and be going 75. This car is a bit more powerful than what I came from so it's addicting.

I am pretty sure it's not the brakes. It doesn't get worse when using them and I don't notice a pull when on them. I had the dealership look at them too and they said they were fine, but maybe they only looked at the pads. BUT I am not ruling that out entirely. Just I have a good amount of experience with brakes and issues with brakes, so I am pretty confident about the feel of it.

I really thought it would be a tire issue and that the Hunter machine would fix it. I don't know what to think anymore.

 

No, stock suspension do not need camber kit. The camber is off bc a part have worn out or out of adjustment or a part was bent some how... frame/suspension mount.

Replace the defective part or parts.

 

^ agree, it being -1.78 means something isn't right. It shouldn't be more than -1.5 with factory stuff, ever!

 

I am going to get under there and look at it. I am thinking of getting an aftermarket kit and setting it to stock levels and see if that affects the vibrations. If not ill have to go back to the dealership. Hoping I can find something while Im checking it out. The toe being out is also messed up, I am thinking that has something to do with it.

 

I think I have read on "here" (Acurazine) that Acura updated the Allignment specs to allow -1.7 as a stock camber limit. Don't quote me on that tho, I can't seem to find the thread where that was stated.

 

That's with the lowered A-Spec suspension that lowers it by 3/4 inch, and for 04-05 models with the factory bump stops.

 

I have an 04 6spd so maybe I am not that far out of spec. I am going to try to post the alignment sheet. Maybe someone who understands this more can see something I am not.

From what I am reading the shop should be able to re-align it by adjusting the toe. I am starting to think that shop I went to first is just putting on a show and they actually dont do shit when they look at peoples cars. Or rather they try to do it, but suck at their jobs. Still fighting the good fight.

 

You should be able to adjust the rear toe, but you can't adjust the rear camber. Was the car loaded with any weight in the rear?

 

I see the Hinter Road Force thrown around a lot around here:

Mounting tires - Road-force balancing no-longer useful? - Corvette Forum

Any truth to Discount Tire getting rid of these, or are these still available at pretty much all locations.