noles.alum9

110K miles 2nd clutch. FIrst one was replaced at 70K miles 2 years ago February. I am beginning to think it's me... I took the car in last month and they told me that it was at it's last adjustment, next time she comes back it will be a new clutch. Well, yesterday the pedal started feeling mush up to about mid press. This morning, same thing put really had to force into 1st & 2nd gear. After about 10-15 miles it seems to tighten up but I have had this car for 5 years and never had this happen in cold months.

DMZ

Oh, ya think so?

Clutches should last at least 180K miles or more. Learn how to drive one!
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noles.alum9

Thanks bad ass!

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Really comes down to smoothness and not fading the clutch. If your clutch is engaged its doing its job, if it is being faded its burning away.

Don't ride the clutch meaning letting your foot sit on the pedal while driving since that causes it to disengage momentarily causing it to fade again.

Rev match your down shifts to prevent the clutch from burning if you have to go down a gear.

Check your hydraulic components to make sure everything is functioning normally and there isn't any drag caused by a leak or pressure loss in the hydraulic system.

Beyond that learn how to get rid of bad habits...

Senna is driving hard on track but see how he rev matches the down shifts. Most people burn their clutches by down shifting hard and just dropping the clutch or fading it till it engages. The less you press the clutch pedal the better. Don't get me wrong in some situations you need to fade the clutch a little but for the most part try to avoid it.

noles.alum9

Thank you. After talking to some friends and explaining what I have been doing, I found out that sitting at the light in gear with my foot on the clutch is bad, and I was letting out the clutch and as the car started to move, apply the gas pedal and I am told this is forcing the clutch to move the car. I don't leave my foot on the clutch when driving but I do when stopped. I also don't heavey down shift. Thanks for the video too, I agree that I have developed some bad habits that I need to make note of.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Having your foot on the clutch should only cause wear if your clutch is dragging in other words if the hydraulic system doesn't have enough pressure to disengage the clutch completely. Sounds like you were fading the clutch and giving the car more gas to move it. While the clutch is faded you never want to rev the car up. Just enough to get it to move and then let it engage completely after which you can get on the gas.

You live and learn really but it is an expensive lesson. Do check the flywheel while getting the clutch replaced as you may have inadvertently created hotspots which which cause the car to vibrate while the clutch is engaged.

noles.alum9

The shop my husband worked at before he died is fixing it for me. Parts are at $400 with clutch, slave cylinder and preasure plate. (I think, I don't have the estimate in front of me) They are only charging me $22.50 in labor. I'll ask them to check the entire system.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Sounds good. Car should be good to go. Those clutches are really tough to master. Took me a long time to get smooth but I had done my fair share of damage. Doesn't have the same bite but the car still chirps the wheels now and again. Enjoy the new feeling ride!

noles.alum9

My car is still at the shop... They called me today and siad there was air in the line...

GRAF-FITI

granny shifting not double clutching like you should

noles.alum9

Thanks for the tip Graf

ZOMGVTEK

The clutch allows you to start off smooth without stalling the engine by wearing the disc. Anywhere between foot to the floor and fully off the pedal you are wearing the disc. Let the clutch out as fast as you can, at as low of engine speed as you can, of course without just slamming off the clutch since that shock is hard on most everything.

With the clutch pedal to the floor, you're not wearing the clutch disc itself, which is basically a big brake pad, but you do wear the big spring and bearing that push the clutch off the engine. This is simple to fix, just take the car out of gear and let your foot off the clutch whenever you stop. You shouldn't ever really need the clutch in more than a few seconds. If you're waiting at a 4 way stop or something, you can slow down to a crawl and take the car out of gear, leaving the cars momentum keeping you rolling towards the stop while you wait for traffic to clear up. This way you only need to use the clutch once or twice, instead of every time the cars in front of you move. However, this is really situation dependent if its possible without pissing people off.

Clutches can last damn near forever if you never use it. Just cruising in a gear with your foot off the clutch isn't much different to the clutch than the car just sitting. Every shift, and every launch is what wears it. This means you're going to get a LOT more wear in 'city' driving than highway. There is no set miles a clutch is good for. It COULD last the lifetime of the car, but ~100,000 miles is more typical. 40,000 miles is bad, but not crazy. You can blow up a new clutch in minutes, or sometimes seconds. If you try to do a burnout with the clutch a little in, and the tires not spinning, you're basically putting all of the engines power into wearing the clutch. It's like cruising at full throttle while riding the brakes hard. Getting a long life out of a clutch is all about balance. I think having some basic understanding of how it works would help to get it to last longer.

noles.alum9

Friday I went down to the shop to pick up a rental and saw the TL with all her insides on the ground and her up in the air was a little painful. THe mechanic told me that the problem was more with the flywheel, not with the clutch this time. There were a few shinny spots on the forks but bot to terrible. I live in Orlando, no highway miles in my daily commute, all back roads and stop & go by the university. For 4 years I drove this car with my husband sitting next to me (he drove a 1993 Mitsubishi 3000 VR4) and he never said anything about how I drove or used the clutch so I figured I was doing everything fine. The last MT car I drove full time was a 92 Mazda Protege in Northern Italy for 4 years, never had a problem with that clutch and probably drove it the same way. Thank you all for your advice, when I get her back, I will change my bad habits and hopefully keep her off the lift...

ZOMGVTEK

It's not so bad, pop a new clutch in and you should be good until 2xx,000.

noles.alum9

Just picked her up. SHe feels rough as I release the clutch pedal and feels like I am giving her a lot of gas. It is raining and kind of nasty out so I hst came straight home, all highway. I'll have to go around my neighborhood and feel her out. Just pushing in the cltch feels tighter but feels like I am fighting the pedal from snapping back fast.

Jackass

There are some great older threads on here with great info from SouthernBoy that may be good to read through for more tips on how to possibly improve your clutch skills.

I hate cars

The easiest way to make the clutch last is to remember anytime the clutch is slipping (clutch pedal depressed) you're causing wear and anytime it's engaged, there's no wear. I take off with almost no throttle, get the clutch engaged quickly and then feed it power as long as I'm not in a hurry.

ez12a

You should be able to get the car rolling under 1500 rpm with minimal slip. Anything over that would probably wear the clutch excessively.

ez12a

timed myself mentally, no more than approx 2 seconds of slip @ 1500 rpm or under. The clutch pedal should be fully out at that point and the car moving in 1st gear. this is on flat ground.

on an unrelated note i remember looking up reliability of WRXs and one owner complained about terrible clutch life. When asked how he drives it he says "oh i start out revving the thing at 4k"...

nj2pa2nc

never had to replace a clutch in the numerous manual transmission vehicles I have owned or own. I do not rev match, I do have my foot on the clutch at redlights, etc. My tsx has almost 166K problem free miles with the original clutch.

noles.alum9

That is awesome!

ZOMGVTEK

I usually have no problem leaving a stop at idle without touching the throttle until the car is rolling. It depends on the traffic situation, but I normally start off <1K and shift by 2,500. About as high as I will normally launch is ~1,500 when pulling a PWC out of the water at a boat launch.

The base might have notably less torque in that range, but anything above ~1,200 feels excessive on my car. If I'm trying to launch really quickly, I might rev as high as 3K or so, but the clutch can be let out very quickly so presumably the wear isn't too bad.

The one exception is if you're intentionally trying to light up the tires. I have a hard time making that happen 'smoothly' below ~4K. That's hard on more than just the clutch, but oh well.

ez12a

yeah, 1500 is an upper limit. I dip under 1k usually when getting moving, modulating the gas and clutch.

if you slip the clutch long enough yeah you can probably get moving at idle. However it's too slow for me in traffic or to use day to day. I know i can move forward in 1st gear easily just after starting the car when the engine's idle is higher without touching the throttle.

I hate cars

On the flip side (I'm sure you know already) lugging the engine will damage rod bearings, the result looks a lot like a loss of lube. Lubrication in a journal bearing is dependent on journal speed and the thinner the oil the less tolerant it is of low rpm and you lose the hydrodynamic wedge. On top of that most new spec oil has lower ZDDP for boundary lubrication once metal to metal contact occurs.

I'm sure dipping slightly below 1,000rpm at very light throttle is ok but I wouldnt do it regularly with lots of throttle. Then again being DBW it may be protected electronically.

ZOMGVTEK

It appears to limit throttle below 1,500 RPM. The difference between light and full throttle below ~1,500 under load is almost not there.

I'm a fan of lugging the engine around. I understand your concern, but my last two UOA's were better than the average, that might mean something. I most likely more than make up for it elsewhere. Block heater use year round in a heated garage means the engine usually sees ~90º oil temps on cold startup, and I baby it until the thermostat has opened a few times. I typically shift into 6th around 1,500 and slam the pedal to the floor. The torque out of the little J is actually impressive in that range. It 'feels' like it has more torque below ~2-3K than an LS1 car. Really.

I hate cars

That's good it limits throttle. I've seen people regularly take off in older cars at 500rpm and heavy throttle with it pinging like crazy and felt terrible for the car.

You know my opinion on wear metals in UOAs, absolutely worthless as it can only "see" very small particles and not the larger particles indicative of heavy wear. A particle count is the only way to go other than a teardown.