Majofo

holy shit.. where the hell is the exhaust valve? OP, not your fault, you shouldn't be paying for anything. Don't back down and make sure Acura Corporate / Regional Mgr is involved.

I hate cars

The huge problem with these pictures now that I can see them is that the exhaust valve did not break while the engine was running. The piston, cylinder, and head would be beat to hell if it had. This happened after they pulled it apart.

Majofo

For what reason would they remove the valve is what puzzles me.

johnny3

Bent valve must have stayed in one piece, knocked a hole in the piston, probably over revved the engine, floated the valve(s).

I hate cars

It looks like it might be a hollow stem valve and it broke off flush with the guide in the head. I can't see quite good enough but that would be one narrow stem if it was not broken. Something funny is going on here for sure.

nfnsquared

He's AT, so .....

Would like to see a pic of the piston....

Still want to know their theory on how water was sucked in through the intake....Maybe they've changed their story now....

I hate cars

With a damaged valve (could've sieze in the guide, could've had a weak spring and smacked a piston and bent it) the head could have a crack in it. I'm assuming no one has seen what a combustion chamber looks like after dropping a valve into a running engine. This thing did not break with it running period.

Majofo

The stems aren't thin nor hollow. I bet it would have bent the stem not snapped it unless a retainer failed. Highly unlikely it was an overrev since it's an auto and only one valve is at issue. More than likely it's as IHC said, they removed it. I have 07 heads in the garage. I can confirm later.

Majofo

Aftermath from Paul's J36 build.

I hate cars

Lol. That's what i'm talking about.

Op, did they give a reason for the broken valve?

Comptechtl2367

Your car insurance would not cover something like this, There was no loss, well there was but you would have to have a reason something like this happened. There is clearly water in the oil but what about the coolant level? Or did you not look at that before the dealer ripped your car apart and then said they were not going to cover it?

I will like to see how this pans out! Make sure your dad (and you) keep your cool with Acura, they will be alot me willing to help you if your not yelling at them and throwing the word lawer out there. Good luck!

GCSIMON

Here is the latest:

Corporate Acura is supporting the dealer saying it's water in the engine.

My insurance company is still going to view the car this week and will make the assessment.

The insurance claims rep is going to want to see the mixture of the alleged water and oil mixture, which my father and I both believe is gone per the dealer getting rid of it which could make for an interesting situation.

It's looking like I will just get the car fixed and take the matter up in court.

nfnsquared

Your picture is pretty much proof there was water in the oil (or more exactly: water in the oil that is on the end of the gloved finger...).

Did you ever notice a loss of coolant or white smoke coming out of the exhaust?

GCSIMON

And you'll have to excuse me, I'm not great with all the engine parts and how they work in sync, but what I do know is that I did not drive through a puddle and the dealer using that as the reason for this issue is not enough for me to agree.

nfnsquared

Yep, as I've said before, I find their claim highly questionable, especially since your intake is stock...

I'll be interested to see if their story changes once your insurance adjuster starts looking into the situation...

I hate cars

Once the heads are pulled, water and oil can enter the cylinder. That cylinder was not burning water or the combustion chamber would be super clean.

The broken valve is nearly irrelevant since it did not break with the engine running. Whatever crud the tech found in the cylinder once the heads were pulled is irrelevant. Water mixed in the oil in the sump is relevant. If they threw something that important out its basically an admission of guilt.

GCSIMON

Insurance person going in tomorrow, which was earlier than expected. This is probably the only thing that has gone right so far.. and it's not even Acura.

Realistically what are my options now?

-Insurance takes over, I pay $1000 deductible, car gets fixed.

-Or, insurance says no way we are covering that, and I'm back at square one responsible for all costs.

Corporate nor dealer is budging at all on this guys. My dad has been great on the phone with these people, he's an engineer and a savvy business guy, so to him "probably driving through a puddle" is completely unacceptable to him.

GCSIMON

Here are some off chance questions just to cure my curiosity:
-Could quick heavy acceleration cause the cylinder/valve to bust?
-Can water be physically put into an engine? For example, could someone open up the hood, get under the cover, and pour water in to completely f- it up?

Bearcat94

Comprehensive insurance may pay for hydrolock. Depends on insurance and the situation, but I know for sure I've read on here about a member that got covered.

OP your worst case is insurance says, "Not our problem. Either a car problem or the owner did something." and Acura says, "Not our problem. Owner did it." I would not be surprised AT ALL if this is what happens. Maybe it won't and you'll be OK, I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if they both try to screw you.

But listen to these guys. Based on your story, there is NO WAY you got water in the engine. Something else is the cause. Find the cause and you'll know who's responsible.

GCSIMON

Aww, come on! Now I won't be able to sleep tonight...

I hate cars

Absolutely no chance that heavy acceleration caused the valve problem. At this point they're not telling you the whole story because whoever pulled it apart broke the valve at some point. I would question them why the valve is broken. Believe me, it was not broken when the engine was running. It's not to say it wasn't damaged and causing no compression but it wasn't broken. For all you know they might have turned the engine over while the timing belt was off and severely bend the valve.

What I suggest you do is ask for more details. Tell them the combustion chamber would be beaten to hell like in the pictures Mojofo posted if the valve was already broken.

Ask them why the combustion chamber is not "steam cleaned" if it got water in it.

Have them measure the piston to deck clearance. Surely if you got enough water in there to cause all of these problems you bent a rod which would show up as one piston being further down in the hole than the rest.

Check the catalytic convertors for debris. They will catch anything that gets through the combustion chambers.

It's a very long shot but it's always possible the cats could come apart internally and get a piece of the substrate into the exhaust valve. Very unlikely but a quick inspection would tell you.

Looking at the shot of the heads, it looks like you had combustion leaking out toward the exhaust side of the head near the bad exhaust valve which would indicate a blown headgasket and would explain why the car ran ok until it sat. Sometimes when they blow you lose compression but get no water in the combustion chamber until the engine is off. This would explain water in the oil also.

That cylinder was likely low on compression for a while. The exhaust valve is dull with carbon just like the intake valves when it should be white/tan.

Getting water in the engine won't affect the valve anyway so your dad should be able to put these facts together. Ask them for the head of the exhaust valve. If they say it went through the exhaust they're lying. IMO you're covered in more than one way.

You HAVE to go through the chain of events and press the dealer. Make them answer these questions and I bet you will get it covered.

GCSIMON

I hate cars: Thank you so much for taking the time to type that information up. I feel much more confident after reading that.

Bearcat94

Sorry. I just don't trust any of these bastards to "do the right thing" when it comes time to open their wallets.

Acura has already started their tap dance.

rkan121

Wow I really feel for you man. Do not give up the battle with acura client services and the dealer. Obviously it helps to have the dealer back you too. This is complete BS. You bought a CPO from a dealer and clearly within the warranty and they won't honor it. The dealer will prob blaim everything on the previous owner. My question to them is how you could abuse a head gasket? They will prob respond " the previous owner prob overheated the TL" or some more BS. I still can't get over how this isn't a warranty item??? What is a warranty item, would be my question. Also they can't provide you with a loaner, but you bought the car from them...right! I'm in the process on buying an 07 TL, now I'm going to ask them to do a compression check before I buy it, altough this is prob an isolated issue... Good luck with the battle VS acura, I have lost all of mine, but I never had a warranty either

Fcbarcelona

well i have the same car (acura tl 2007) and my car is doing that now but i had change to it the pulley and put on it a racing pulley. And i dont know now whats going on with my car

GCSIMON

Insurance got back us, only offering to cover $1,067 worth of repairs, with my deductible still being $1,000.

Acura is estimating the work to be around $1,800, with a note that says additional hours and parts may be needed to perform the repair job.

I do have the option to take it to a local repair shop in my area, the guy is a licensed Honda/Acura technician and I would be able to get the work done for only my $1,000 deductible vs. Acura charging an "estimated" $1,800.

The only deal is, my car is 65 miles away from me at the dealer, and I would be responsible for the towing from the dealer to the repair shop ($300-400ish?).

This really sucks.

Majofo

@ insurance saying they'll cover $67 worth of repairs.

In no way are you at fault. I'd tow it to my house. Call a lawyer, get a rental.. and have the dealer pay all expenses after it's all said and done.

GCSIMON

I really thought calling Acura headquarters in California and speaking with the district manager would make this whole thing less of a headache, but his stance is the exact same as the dealers. Very hard to get through to anyone at Acura.

And truthfully, I just want my car back. Involving my lawyer assumes a great deal of fees and time. Part of me says just pay it and be done with it which is exactly what the dealer wants me to do.

It's not fair any way I look at it, but I still have a monthly payment due on the car and for insurance.

Majofo

Well then fix it and drive it into a tree. Not your insurance fault but fuck both of them.. lol.

Majofo

In all seriousness, tell the dealer to fuck off and have a reputable indie honda mechanic or machine shop do the the head work. I still don't understand why they removed the valve. Too many questions are unanswered.

Majofo

Do you have any pics of the headgaskets?

also.. put the dealer on blast. Post the dealership name here.

GCSIMON

How could I prove/bring up the issue of the valve being removed as something they should explain to me? As I've mentioned in earlier posts, you'll have to excuse me I really don't know a lot about engine parts and how they work.

Where should the valve have been? What is its function? Why would they have taken it off? Could it have been damaged?

Majofo

Basically, on the TL, each cylinder has two intake valves and two exhaust valves. Intake valves allow air in the combustion chamber to mix with the fuel and is ignited by the spark plug.. the remnants, exhaust gas / fumes are then let out through the exhaust valves. In the picture you posted, one of your exhaust valves is missing and it obviously didn't break off while the engine was running and the piston (although it's hard to tell) doesn't appear to have any damage from valve to piston contact so it seems like the techs removed the valve. Why did they do so? They also didn't explain how water entered the combustion chamber. Obviously it didn't enter the intake.. have them explain to you how water could have traveled all the way through your intake snorkel, through your filter and not hydrolock your pistons?

Then tell them that you want all the original components including the head gaskets.. tell them not to dare touch the oil because you're going to have it analyzed by an independent lab proving the water is indeed coolant.. and that when all is said and done, they're going to be losing way more than just a customer.

Majofo

Better yet, have IHC call them.

I hate cars

Good advice. Since he had the stock intake, the filter would show signs of water entry. Ask for all parts back, don't tell them why, and take a look at the paper air filter. You've got them in so many ways but you have to start asking the questions. Great call on the coolant. Obviously if it's rainwater it will have no coolant in it. This is easy for a lab to determine.

GCSIMON

If there was enough water in my engine to do this kind of damage, wouldn't it have stalled and died on me instead of only misfiring and having the engine shakes like it did? It doesn't seem like my symptoms were a direct correlation to water being in the engine.

I hate cars

Its possible to hurt it from water ingestion and still run but usually it will die.

I'll be glad to write out a template for a phone call with these guys. You have an excellent case. If it weren't illegal it would Bebe fun to call them myself and say I'm you lol. With my dealings with a crooked bodyshop i've learned to be polite but not give an inch. Go down there and mentally be prepared to spend a few hours and wear them down. Last time it took me planning a meeting with my insurance, Acuras best mechanic in the area and a bodyshop rep standing under my car for a couple hours and going item by item and reconstructing the chain of events. In the beginning you could tell the insurance guy thought I was looking for a free lunch and by the time it was over his whole attitude had changed and he thought I had been very patient considering what I had been through. Proving them liars and having the mechanic back me up after showing them step by step everything that was wrong was great. I think yours would be much easier to prove.

The only thing that has had me worried is that one cleaner than the rest intake runner. Could just be how the egr and pcv are distributed...

I hope this makes sense, typing on my phone makes me look illiterate.

Bearcat94

To me, this is the key. How did the water get there and is it "water" or coolant?

OP says that Acura claims he drove through a puddle. This just sounds like a stock answer - easy to use, no investigation required and make it the driver's fault.

OP says he didn't drive though any water BUT with the stock intake it's pretty close to impossible to ingest enough water to lock the engine. IOW - the OP would've notcied that "puddle", it would've been more like a lake.

I hate cars

Exactly. Like I said earlier, have it analyzed and if it shows coolant, it did not come from a puddle. And also, the stock paper airfilter would show signs of water entry.

Comptechtl2367

You did not Hydro lock your engine by sucking up water. Your air filter would be all wet and your intake would have water in it. Also more then just one cylinder would gave water in it. I am supprised your awuto insurance even offered to pay for any of it. Sounds like a head gasket failure or cracked head. i would cut my losses and just pay to have it fixed where it is at. Dont get a lawyer, it will be a waste of money and time, i would be suprised if a lawyer even agreed to take this on. Good luck man.