~!~!~ 3rd to 4th gear shuddering ~!~!~
05-01-2017, 02:36 PM
#1
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~!~!~ 3rd to 4th gear shuddering ~!~!~
Hello everyone,
I'm not new to the Acura club since I've had my 2004 TSX since 2008 and put 165k miles on it. A family member is selling her 2008 TL that has 67k miles and is in really good shape. I would really like to get this car but all of the talk on here of transmission issues has me paranoid.
I've looked over the car really well and don't think they have changed the transmission fluid yet so if I got it that would be the first thing I do. I checked it though and it still looks really clean with a definite pink hue so that's good.
when I was driving it however, at very slow accelerations I could feel the car shudder between 20-25 mph. It's shifting from 3rd to 4th and if you are accelerating light enough you feel it. If you drive the car like normal or even hard it shifts fine with no shudder.
im thinking maybe a trans fluid change and replacing all of the trans pressure sensors might do the job.
What at do you guys think? I just don't want to buy the car and have the trans crap out on me or have something like the torque converter needing to be replaced.
I was thinking of asking if they minded if I changed the pressure sensors up front and see if the problem goes away before I buy it.
If if that is the fix would you feel the difference immediately or does it take time?
what would you guys do in my situation?
I'm not new to the Acura club since I've had my 2004 TSX since 2008 and put 165k miles on it. A family member is selling her 2008 TL that has 67k miles and is in really good shape. I would really like to get this car but all of the talk on here of transmission issues has me paranoid.
I've looked over the car really well and don't think they have changed the transmission fluid yet so if I got it that would be the first thing I do. I checked it though and it still looks really clean with a definite pink hue so that's good.
when I was driving it however, at very slow accelerations I could feel the car shudder between 20-25 mph. It's shifting from 3rd to 4th and if you are accelerating light enough you feel it. If you drive the car like normal or even hard it shifts fine with no shudder.
im thinking maybe a trans fluid change and replacing all of the trans pressure sensors might do the job.
What at do you guys think? I just don't want to buy the car and have the trans crap out on me or have something like the torque converter needing to be replaced.
I was thinking of asking if they minded if I changed the pressure sensors up front and see if the problem goes away before I buy it.
If if that is the fix would you feel the difference immediately or does it take time?
what would you guys do in my situation?
05-01-2017, 03:34 PM
#2
Racer
Are you sure that it's shifting from 3rd to 4th at 20-25MPH? In my 5AT, it will shift into 3rd at about 30MPH.
I have the same shuddering in my car right now, but I am about 90% sure it's NOT the transmission. Very similar symptoms as you described and same MPH. I am fairly sure it is my rear engine mount. Does vibration significantly increase in the car when you put it in either Reverse or Drive from Park?
Now, I obviously haven't driven the car like you have, but I would suspect it's not the transmission at those speeds.
Torque converter shudder usually appears at around 35-40MPH, from what I have read.
If the car seems to shift crisply between the gears, I would also suspect that it's not the transmission. My car shifts exactly as I would expect, almost too smooth between the gears, except 1st to 2nd.
Try one thing, put it into the "manual" shift mode and see if that issue still appears at 20-25MPH in second gear. I can get the car to shake constantly if I keep it at 20-25MPH @ 1800-2100 RPM in 2nd gear.
I wish I could definitively tell you it was one of the mounts, but that's the only thing I can think it could be for my car outside of a clogged EGR valve. I was going to replace the mount this weekend, but I was too lazy, so I am dealing with this issue for another week.
The '07 and '08 TL's got the transmission from the RL's which are a little beefier than the '06-'06 TL's transmissions. Less failures, but it is still critical to replace the pressure switches and tranny fluid. The heat build up is what kills these transmissions. Overtime the pressure switches get out of spec and start to engage at a much smaller PSI range, causing additional wear between the clutch packs. The addition of worn down ATF creates additional heat build-up which then adds to wearing down the clutch packs. Once the packs get too worn, that's when the transmission starts to slip. That's my understanding at least from the reading I have done.
EDIT: To answer your question, yes, changing the pressure switches will make an immediate difference in how the car shifts IF the car was having sluggish shifts before. Before I replaced mine, I could feel the car sorta "hang" the shift for a half second before it would go into the next gear. The pressure switches cleaned up that slop. I also did a 3x3 tranny fluid drain and refill. It definitely helped clean up some of the slop in my shifts as well. Car shifts smooth, just has that annoying shaking/shuddering right now.
I have the same shuddering in my car right now, but I am about 90% sure it's NOT the transmission. Very similar symptoms as you described and same MPH. I am fairly sure it is my rear engine mount. Does vibration significantly increase in the car when you put it in either Reverse or Drive from Park?
Now, I obviously haven't driven the car like you have, but I would suspect it's not the transmission at those speeds.
Torque converter shudder usually appears at around 35-40MPH, from what I have read.
If the car seems to shift crisply between the gears, I would also suspect that it's not the transmission. My car shifts exactly as I would expect, almost too smooth between the gears, except 1st to 2nd.
Try one thing, put it into the "manual" shift mode and see if that issue still appears at 20-25MPH in second gear. I can get the car to shake constantly if I keep it at 20-25MPH @ 1800-2100 RPM in 2nd gear.
I wish I could definitively tell you it was one of the mounts, but that's the only thing I can think it could be for my car outside of a clogged EGR valve. I was going to replace the mount this weekend, but I was too lazy, so I am dealing with this issue for another week.
The '07 and '08 TL's got the transmission from the RL's which are a little beefier than the '06-'06 TL's transmissions. Less failures, but it is still critical to replace the pressure switches and tranny fluid. The heat build up is what kills these transmissions. Overtime the pressure switches get out of spec and start to engage at a much smaller PSI range, causing additional wear between the clutch packs. The addition of worn down ATF creates additional heat build-up which then adds to wearing down the clutch packs. Once the packs get too worn, that's when the transmission starts to slip. That's my understanding at least from the reading I have done.
EDIT: To answer your question, yes, changing the pressure switches will make an immediate difference in how the car shifts IF the car was having sluggish shifts before. Before I replaced mine, I could feel the car sorta "hang" the shift for a half second before it would go into the next gear. The pressure switches cleaned up that slop. I also did a 3x3 tranny fluid drain and refill. It definitely helped clean up some of the slop in my shifts as well. Car shifts smooth, just has that annoying shaking/shuddering right now.
Last edited by NoTLoud; 05-01-2017 at 03:45 PM.
05-01-2017, 04:32 PM
#3
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I could have sworn those were the gears. I counted the shifts probably 5 times in my head because I had a hard time believing it was going into 4th at such low of a speed.
I remember trying the sport shift myself and I shudder. The shudder happens when it feels like the transmission is just about to shift but it can't decide whether to keep it in 3rd or just go to 4th. I can feel a very pronounced shudder almost like driving over a series of small speed bumps and high speed. I really only noticed it and very slow and gradual take offs, like while driving through the neighborhood and taking a while to get up to speed because of the constant turns and stuff. It happened the same way every time and so consistent that after I happened to notice it the very first time I could bring the car to a stop and replicate over and over again.
i start from a stop with the pedal like what feels like 1-2" of pressure and it's very gradually getting up to speed (think of sitting in stop/go traffic and you are constantly getting up to 30 only to stop again so you just decide to accelerate slowly to avoid the stopping and try to be on the gas consistently... like that kind of acceleration) the car gets up to just below 25 and I can feel usually a series of 3 shudders and if I keep the gas in the exact same position and don't give it more or less it shudders 3 times and then shifts into what I could have sworn was 4th.
When end I was trying to replicate it over and over I would make it do it then come to a stop again and try it again. I noticed also that after it did the shuddering and went into 4th I would go to slow back down to gradual stop and it seems to shift back from 4th to 3rd pretty hard. Definitely a more noticeable feel than any other gear combo.
I remember trying the sport shift myself and I shudder. The shudder happens when it feels like the transmission is just about to shift but it can't decide whether to keep it in 3rd or just go to 4th. I can feel a very pronounced shudder almost like driving over a series of small speed bumps and high speed. I really only noticed it and very slow and gradual take offs, like while driving through the neighborhood and taking a while to get up to speed because of the constant turns and stuff. It happened the same way every time and so consistent that after I happened to notice it the very first time I could bring the car to a stop and replicate over and over again.
i start from a stop with the pedal like what feels like 1-2" of pressure and it's very gradually getting up to speed (think of sitting in stop/go traffic and you are constantly getting up to 30 only to stop again so you just decide to accelerate slowly to avoid the stopping and try to be on the gas consistently... like that kind of acceleration) the car gets up to just below 25 and I can feel usually a series of 3 shudders and if I keep the gas in the exact same position and don't give it more or less it shudders 3 times and then shifts into what I could have sworn was 4th.
When end I was trying to replicate it over and over I would make it do it then come to a stop again and try it again. I noticed also that after it did the shuddering and went into 4th I would go to slow back down to gradual stop and it seems to shift back from 4th to 3rd pretty hard. Definitely a more noticeable feel than any other gear combo.
05-01-2017, 04:35 PM
#4
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Probably in my paranoid state I noticed later that in my garage when I was moving it in/out for certain things it was shifting through the different gears (P-R, P down D) to harder than I would expected.
05-01-2017, 06:11 PM
#5
Racer
If it is thumping from Park to Reverse and from Reverse to Drive that makes me think it's the mounts as well, specifically the rear engine mount. I have the same issue.
Did you turn the AC on at all? I am basically getting a back massage in my seat when the AC is running in my car.
Were you on flat ground when you noticed this? Did going up or down a hill make anything worse? Typically with a bad torque converter, the shuddering will get worse when you are going uphill. My car seems to have less shuddering and vibration when I am accelerating uphill. If I am turning the wheel while accelerating, the shuddering also seems to lessen.
The fact that the shuddering is happening at low speeds and low RPMs also could indicate a mount because that is when the engine has more resistance and low end torque.
Take a read through my thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-p...-954875/page2/
Also, if you think the car is hunting for gears, that may be a different problem. You should feel the car shift and then almost instantaneously feel it shift into the next gear. If it hangs, then the pressure switches are surely bad. If you are experiencing the car hunting for gears on a hill, well that's probably Honda's shitty Grade Logic at work. It makes some weird decisions for you some times. The rough downshifts you're experiencing are probably the 4th to 2nd downshifts which are not good, but really not avoidable unless you drive in "manual" mode.
I was also having rough downshifts on occasion because of the Grade Logic. I replaced the upper and rear, lower transmission mounts that were both broken and haven't had any issues since with the downshifts. I was worried that was a transmission issue as well, but it was just the mounts being broken.
If there's anything I have learned, it is that the TL is an interesting car.
It could be that the axles are bad on the car too. Do you hear any clicking while turning in a particular direction? The shaking during acceleration can also be a symptom of a bad inner joint on the axles. The clicking indicates a bad outer joint.
Hope this helps.
Did you turn the AC on at all? I am basically getting a back massage in my seat when the AC is running in my car.
Were you on flat ground when you noticed this? Did going up or down a hill make anything worse? Typically with a bad torque converter, the shuddering will get worse when you are going uphill. My car seems to have less shuddering and vibration when I am accelerating uphill. If I am turning the wheel while accelerating, the shuddering also seems to lessen.
The fact that the shuddering is happening at low speeds and low RPMs also could indicate a mount because that is when the engine has more resistance and low end torque.
Take a read through my thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-p...-954875/page2/
Also, if you think the car is hunting for gears, that may be a different problem. You should feel the car shift and then almost instantaneously feel it shift into the next gear. If it hangs, then the pressure switches are surely bad. If you are experiencing the car hunting for gears on a hill, well that's probably Honda's shitty Grade Logic at work. It makes some weird decisions for you some times. The rough downshifts you're experiencing are probably the 4th to 2nd downshifts which are not good, but really not avoidable unless you drive in "manual" mode.
I was also having rough downshifts on occasion because of the Grade Logic. I replaced the upper and rear, lower transmission mounts that were both broken and haven't had any issues since with the downshifts. I was worried that was a transmission issue as well, but it was just the mounts being broken.
If there's anything I have learned, it is that the TL is an interesting car.
It could be that the axles are bad on the car too. Do you hear any clicking while turning in a particular direction? The shaking during acceleration can also be a symptom of a bad inner joint on the axles. The clicking indicates a bad outer joint.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by NoTLoud; 05-01-2017 at 06:13 PM.
05-01-2017, 07:28 PM
#6
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Thanks for all of the feedback so far.
To answer as many of your questions as I can remember:
i was diriving on flat ground the entire time. No incline/decline.
I did run the AC some and it didn't make it any worse/better. The compressor is still very smooth and quiet. I've had motor mounts go out on my TSX and like you said you really notice it when the motor is under load like at idle with the ac on. This car isn't doing any of that.
As far as the shudder and shift timing it's hard to describe. It's not like the transmission is slipping and staying between gears. It's more that I am keeping the accelerator at a constant position and it's occurring at the the very edge of when the car has to decide whether to shift to next gear or stay. So I'll have the pedal constant and the engine will slowly climb in rpm until it just about reaches the highest rpm it can for that given pedal position and then I immediately feel the car shudder 3 times and then it shift. The shift itself is smooth and feels normal but the shudder happens just before it shifts which makes it feel like the trans is hunting or something.
When it shifts the the shift itself feels smooth and perfectly fine. It's just the weird shudder hat happens just before that which bothers me.
I honestly didnt know transmissions had pressure switches and I'm guessing they just tell the trans to shift to next gear once a certain pressure is reached. If that is correct then I'll explain the situation feels like I'm bringing the car so slowly right to the pressure point that the trans has to decide if it should shift or not and it shudders then shifts.
Sorry but but it's very hard to describe the situation obviously since these things just have to be felt
To answer as many of your questions as I can remember:
i was diriving on flat ground the entire time. No incline/decline.
I did run the AC some and it didn't make it any worse/better. The compressor is still very smooth and quiet. I've had motor mounts go out on my TSX and like you said you really notice it when the motor is under load like at idle with the ac on. This car isn't doing any of that.
As far as the shudder and shift timing it's hard to describe. It's not like the transmission is slipping and staying between gears. It's more that I am keeping the accelerator at a constant position and it's occurring at the the very edge of when the car has to decide whether to shift to next gear or stay. So I'll have the pedal constant and the engine will slowly climb in rpm until it just about reaches the highest rpm it can for that given pedal position and then I immediately feel the car shudder 3 times and then it shift. The shift itself is smooth and feels normal but the shudder happens just before it shifts which makes it feel like the trans is hunting or something.
When it shifts the the shift itself feels smooth and perfectly fine. It's just the weird shudder hat happens just before that which bothers me.
I honestly didnt know transmissions had pressure switches and I'm guessing they just tell the trans to shift to next gear once a certain pressure is reached. If that is correct then I'll explain the situation feels like I'm bringing the car so slowly right to the pressure point that the trans has to decide if it should shift or not and it shudders then shifts.
Sorry but but it's very hard to describe the situation obviously since these things just have to be felt
05-02-2017, 09:56 AM
#7
Racer
Hm, based on what you have just described, I am not entirely sure. I still think I have a similar symptom, but the fact that the AC vibrates the car and dropping the car into a gear increases cabin vibration makes me think my issue is the rear mount.
I would say go ahead and try and replace the pressure switches. They could be the issue, but what you are describing doesn't seem to be the typical symptoms of a failing pressure switch.
Read through this site: TransCooler
Specifically read everything related to the transmission posts.
It could be that the transmission is slipping, but I am honestly not sure. Are you only noticing it at the 20-25MPH speeds? I would do some more testing in the "manual" mode and see if the symptom only occurs at certain speeds and in certain gears. I don't want to give out bad info, but if the car seems to go into gear fine, then I don't think it's an issue with the clutch packs slipping. If I put my car into "manual" mode, then I still get the vibration/shuddering from 20-25MPH, and then it goes away and if I take the car up to 4k RPMs in 2nd, it'll shift into third no issues. I am by no means an expert on transmissions, but I am honestly just hoping my issue is not transmission related.
I would say go ahead and try and replace the pressure switches. They could be the issue, but what you are describing doesn't seem to be the typical symptoms of a failing pressure switch.
Read through this site: TransCooler
Specifically read everything related to the transmission posts.
It could be that the transmission is slipping, but I am honestly not sure. Are you only noticing it at the 20-25MPH speeds? I would do some more testing in the "manual" mode and see if the symptom only occurs at certain speeds and in certain gears. I don't want to give out bad info, but if the car seems to go into gear fine, then I don't think it's an issue with the clutch packs slipping. If I put my car into "manual" mode, then I still get the vibration/shuddering from 20-25MPH, and then it goes away and if I take the car up to 4k RPMs in 2nd, it'll shift into third no issues. I am by no means an expert on transmissions, but I am honestly just hoping my issue is not transmission related.
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05-02-2017, 10:02 AM
#8
Senior Moderator
Fluid and switches, i don't think you'll have an issue with the transmission on this car
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-p...2008-a-840630/
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-p...2008-a-840630/