usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

again cutting your part of the window grille ? you prolly just read couple post and started spreading the news....

No, I read the whole thread, the ultimate cooling mod is removing the hole insert making your car look like total shit, alog with loosing your washer nozzles and risking elements getting in, not to mention the exposed cabin filter. Look on page 8 of the Ultimate Cooling Mod, "cutting" the window grill, it seems that's what people have resorted to. Read the whole tread before "your ass can cash your check"


usmarinedelta and TLinNOVA please do your research before your post guys....someone might just take that advice and mess something up....[/quote]


As for you doing a PnP stating your "internals" work, I HIGHLY doubt that the op will have the time and money for 1.) He stated that it's his daily driver, so I'm sure his manifold sitting at a shop getting work done is highly unlikely 2.) The op is looking at what $1500 max? (sorry I've been told I only read few posts and spread stuff ) so I doubt once again the down time for his dd to get neither cams, valves, springs, pistons, and rods and even so for $1500. So Swoosh, please read his goals and what he's trying to achieve. You say that opening up the exhaust like the popular pcd and j pipe is not "creating" new power but releasing what's been held back, well technically doing the cooling mod is "giving" back the robbed power along with the limited spacer.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

dude....ok here is why I said why u dont read:

1> UCM doesnt affect your WIPERS AT ALL...you loose your windshield wiper fluid...to avoid that and so that you dont have a big gouge in the front end people cut holes in the crowl....also if you raise the hood but 2mm your cabin filter is safe

how do i know ? I just didnt read shit, I researched it...tried various things on my car before I know "yes this works and I can recommend it"....not like you just mentioned something Andy posted where I was talking about a completely different part (TB spacer v/s intake manifold AKA MDX spacer)...also what Andy was going by what P2R said, no research by any user was done....Also Andy is the guy who is pushing 350whp+ on a NA engine and guess what on a stock jpipe....cat got ur tongue ?

apart from that:
any intake side mod creates more power....the reason why I mentioned coolant bypass and UCM as that you get some stolen power back for no $$$ spend so talk about power/money ratio now....

But keeping all the healthy bickering aside....I do agree with you on what the OP said...its his DD and he doesnt want to spend much $$$ so for 1500 his best bet would be PCD's/Exhaust....

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

This is just a friendly debate, no more than that. However I mis-typed wipers, I was talking about the washer nozzle. If you remove your cowel, you remove your nozzle, so you loose that feature as far as I know. As for the coolant bypass, I've done that with my previous car and noticed no noticeable difference hence I said it's a useless mod, to me I feel that it is. As for anything on the "intake" side making power? I don't see how a $300 intake can make as much as pcd's when comparing dyno charts, there have been many stating that their intake was not worth the money and all they noticed really was the sound. How does the op spending $350 on motor mounts help with dd power? For the average person such as myself I just wouldn't think pnp my manifold and boring out my tb along with all the downtime and money for minimal gains compared to pcd's and j-pipe that's all. However I was giving the op a different view.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ If you have PCD's and Jpipe, you will only gain ~5-7whp from a catback (lets take 10 whp for $1000, 1whp/$100)...the bored TB and TB spacer gives you ~3whp for $150....

You mentioned you didnt do the coolant bypass coz in your old car it wasnt worth it...i dont know your prev car but the TL is very sensitive to heat and has no low end power...the heat travels from the bottom end to the runners to manifold to your TB where you have your IAT sensor and the TL retards the timing and hence loosing already low, low end power....the coolant is ~200degrees and that is circulating in your TB and you have a $200 air intake, NOT WORTH IT....

do the ultimate coolant mod, TB coolant bypass and you will see the TB staying cool and the IAT low and hence getting nice low end power....all that for FREE....I say its worth it now....and now when you add the CAI you will feel the different...

the reason I didnt ask the OP the get the CAI because I have heard the TL intake is pretty decent (once you remove the intake resonator) and performs well...the reason I said get KNN is so that he wont have to keep changing it, he can clean it and put it back and yeah KNN does flow better than any other filter out there....

and no you were not giving the OP a different view...I was

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

If he wants to save money, the Tsudo exhaust is $400 tops, In reality if he bought the pcd's, jpipe and tsudo exhaust, I bet he is going to make more power than the list you provided. I don't think those little mods make that much of a difference, yes I have the Ultimate cooling mod done, that's because I was bored and didn't care too much about hp, but honestly, in these forums you don't see people talking about bored throttle bodies to that one 7 page thread on pnp intake runners and such, you see more on pcd's and j-pipes. Granted I don't have mine yet but from me "reading what people say" is research and that's why I've made the decision the buy them. As for me not doing the coolant by pass, I have before, not on the TL. Now can you honestly tell me that you've felt much improvement after rerouting the coolant line? Yes in theory the ecu will pull back the timing and decrease power but not noticeably or at all, I haven't found any dyno charts but I've doubt there will be significant difference. If however you did feel an improvement, best believe I'm going to do it tomorrow lol. In other words if we want to talk about saving horsepower and little things to get hp then why not change the oil vicosity for better mileage and free flowing oil, or water wetter to lower temps and all these little things that I dont' think will make that much of a difference. After reading through countless threads, it seems alot of people have said tb spacers are useless even from reputable people. You said that with a bored out tb and spacer you'll net average 3whp, which is what 5-6hp? So your saying with that, the coolant bypass, and ultimate cooling mod and pnp will net him relatively close to 10whp? That sounds a little skepticle to me.
And yes I was giving the op a different view from your suggest budget list.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ I doubt every word you said dude....you need to HONESTLY do more research....

the dyno posted by jstnspace shows he gained 13whp/18wtq from pcd's and jpipe...my list will gain more than that...i can bet money on it, as I did it in that order....

now calling mods "ghetto" just tells me ur ignorant and getting personal....couple post back you said you didnt want to do a mod since reputed or someone said against it....well some very very knowlegeable people/reputed people are running coolant bypass so ur prolly just striking ur foot with a sledge hammer....

the thread on pnp slowed down because of no dyno charts....I did the manifold+runners+mdx spacer+pcd's and I was spinning 3rd on a 5AT....yes I felt every mod I have done (my butt is sensitive <- dont use that against me LOL)....people think the stuff is expensive....NO, dont buy it, find a shop and get it done...I paid $300-ish to get everything done and went 1 day without a car....people spend $400 on new runners and dont know how much on manifolds....this is why this is not a popular mod....besides the install in not easy....

again if you just bored out your TB and have no supporting mods, you wont feel squat....I have a 70mm bored out TB and 70mm TBS and bored out P2R thermal gaskets...70mm manifold intake and 47mm ports from there....when you do that, you can feel the air running thro them on WOT.....for example a Jpipe from the vendors (see any vendor dyno) they will say you will gain 20hp/18tq....but in justn's dyno you only see 13whp and 18wtq from jpipe + PCD's, ohh you know why ?

maybe because he doesnt have supporting mods...compare the mods on the car the vendor uses and your/justn's car and that will tell you why....

this has turned into a nice debate, but I will stop here...since

I did agree couple post up saying that for a strict budget of $1500 the best options i pcd's exhaust and he can prolly squeeze the jpipe in as well....

and this debate is turning into what/whose mods will make more power....

OP, its your money...do as you feel....dang you have a 500+ hp frigging viper, I bet you know more shit than we are talking here....and it just feels am banging my head on a brick wall...not in for it....tried explaining but if you have a biased mindset then you will not/never learn

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

I agree that boring the TB would be great if it was a FI application but for NA I don't think it's worth the time, effort or money. In this link, RacingHart bored his tb to 70mm and in his thread on page 2 he said it sucked and was "counter productive" taking too long to reach top end.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...=688423&page=2

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ yes but he didnt have supporting mods....down the line (next year) am looking to pnp my internals and get better rods/cams/pistons/springs/retainers/....looking to push 350+ whp on a NA engine....and didnt I already state my plan LOL....just getting a 3" exhaust wont do you good....you need supporting mods....are you catching my drift at all ?

open your eyes to the NA world...

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

K and N filter- Yeah ok, I really doubt the difference is there power wise as people with cai haven't noticed much, especially with heat soak as well.

TB Spacer- That has been discussed, but lets say 1-2hp

Coolant Bypass- Let's say 1-2 hp

Manifold and runners ported- Unknown hp but lets say 4-5

TB Bored Out with spacers- 2hp

Lightweight crank- 4hp

pcd's-?

Motor Mounts- 0

UCM- .005?

vs
pcd's, j-pipe, and exhaust? No brainer if you ask me.

I count max 15hp not talking whp. Maybe my numbers are wrong in your eyes, but this is how I see them as and from years of reading through various honda forums this seems to be about right.


This setup you suggest doesn't give him any supporting mods to benefit from imo, he's not FI or have internals done, he's stock. Not only that like I said in reality down time may not be an option for him, but back on topic, as for you saying numbers were higher on the vendor's dyno's, I forgot who but one of the vendors said they used stock 05's for their dyno runs. I really don't think they would use a cooling mod or even a tb bore to exagerate their numbers.
As for this debate turning into whos mod will make more power, isn't that what it is, if both of us had $1500 what would be the best proposal so the op can choose from? I'm saying if your gains are so great, not saying their not, then why haven't people done this more? Even you said it's not that popular due to lack of dyno and popularity. Why do you think j-pipes and pcd's have it all, and even members taking the plunge and buying and dynoing it themselves instead of taking the plung on tb spacers, pnp runners and etc?
Oh and quick comment on the thermal gaskets, no performance out of them, maybe the p2r design is different as in materials but I had the hondata gasket kit on one of my old cars and loged iat's and was really close.

Now I'm not saying he also couldn't go and do the cooling mod and the coolant bypass mod as well, I'm sure it would be to his advantage if he did those along with my suggested mods (but what do I know, I don't have them yet), but I don't think he would notice too much if he did/didn't do them, I didn't (coolant bypass on old car) (ultimate cooling mod on tl).

But this is all up to the op, I think he's leaning more towards the pcd's and jpipe. Like you said, he has a viper, wth do we know anyways.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ holy shit dude....i bet you dont get along well with your wife LOL...

I wrote in BOLD that the best setup for the OP is exhaust components but then yet again and you wrote and quoting you:

its almost like you dont wanna listen or just dont get it

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ in retrospect, I apologize for making a personal comment....frustration took over while explaining and my ego got the best of me....

that was uncalled for....

usmarinedelta: 1
swoosh: 0

LOL

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

Lol it's all good man. No, as for the supporting mods, I wasn't talking about the exhaust part, I was talking about getting the pnp, throttle body bored and spacers and such.

sunggin

Put those HRE's on the TL and lower it

TLinNOVA

iTrader: (1)

after reading this I'm going to sell my TL

sorry guys, didn't mean to cause drama... I did research but wanted to get some opinions.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I often wonder how much of my mods were placebo (because of spending a lot of either money or effort on installing) and how much of a difference they all really make. Eventually, you get used to whatever power you're making and how the car drives and you always want more. That said, we'd probably be better off leaving them mostly stock (other than looks...GOTTA lower it ) and enjoy getting decent gas mileage and decent power. Plus, when we mod...we DO affect the reliability and we do end up with domino effects that cause more headaches down the line.

Having said all that...I am glad I've done the modding I've done...but if I could have kept the TL stock and had a toy car on the side to be RWD and fast....I would.

maharajamd

iTrader: (1)

Ugh I have a headache now.

jpipe, pcd, exhaust, in that order.

How can one argue adding up all that custom type hp here hp there type mods when 3 simple bolt-ons get just as much gain or more... Lol

usmarinedelta

iTrader: (1)

^^^ That's what I said.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

A point I would like to make is about WHP. If your car makes 260 at the crank and 220 at the wheels, you are losing 40 HP to drivetrain or other losses. If you add a mod that increases power by 20 HP, the car will now make 240 WHP and 280 at the crank. All the drivetrain or other losses will remain the same unless you are using a mod that uses HP to work. The SC is an example of this, it takes about 40 HP to run the SC in boost and 40 HP is lost to drivetrain losses. So if you have 320 WHP you are making 360 crank HP and 400 HP worth of stress on the engine.

Many people think drivetrain loss is a percentage of the power a car makes when unless you increase strain on the engine the losses remain the same from stock to fully bolted.

Richie v6

Anyone interested in a V3 jpipe + PCD combo? I can put it back up on the site.

phatrick

GAH, I just bought a v3 from you guys 2 weeks ago too.

Is there a way to get a discount on PCD's if we bought a v3 jpipe?

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Richie, such the opportunist
LOL...

r3devi7

iTrader: (2)

This. Well more than two weeks for me, but still. lol

I hate cars

I know you hate to hear this and it's been said already but I honestly think you're wasting your money modding the TL, at least in the power department. You can make some huge changes in the handling department for $1,500 but it will barely be noticeable if thrown into engine mods. It's not like the Viper where $1,500 will get you some nice gains. You're talking about very few hp. If your experience is anything like mine, after getting out of the weekend toy and getting into the TL, you literally can't feel it accelerating at full throttle. There's no sensation whatsoever that you're accelerating and $1,500 in mods won't change that.

Anyway, nice Viper!

rkan121

nice whips, a nice 1-2 punch

nrb2005tl

^I definitely agree, ADMIRE THE TL FOR ITS STOCK ELEGANCE!!! (internally and externally)

Imabeast31

iTrader: (1)

this thread is making me feel like I've wasted a bunch of money...

Richie v6

Shoot me a PM, I am sure we can work out something.

RV6 is expanding, saving up for my own mandrel bender.

maharajamd

iTrader: (1)

Come on IHC...$1500 in performance parts gets you enough gain to notice on this car. What is the realistic whp gains of a jpipe, pcd, and exhaust? 30+ whp? 10% power gain even? Not to mention drivability, sound, etc.

I agree with you though on the handling. Look at my mod list. If I hadn't of gotten a CAI for ultra cheap I wouldn't have a single go mod on there yet. Suspension should always come first.

Htown_TLS

Hey Richie,
Im interested! Shot you a PM.

GeaugaDog

rv6 v3 j-pipe with either pcds/hfpc will surely give you noticeable gains. j-pipe/hfpc/lightweight pulley for about $1,200 will more than likely make you happy.