V8/rwd TL
#82
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
I was the first to preach about the importance of zero detonation and preignition to the supercharged guys who were blowing engines at the 330whp level and saying that's the limit of the engine when I knew it wasn't. However, a 700hp stock internal J is not going to run 700hp in a street car that's driven every day or at least on the street fairly often. It will let go. There's a difference in a 1/4 blast for 10-12 seconds on a cool engine vs something that's driven in far from optimal conditions that might see several "passes" in a few minutes on an already hot engine. The pistons are not built for boost. Look at the top ring. With no pinging you can get away with those kinds of cylinder pressures for a very short time. How many daily driven Js are on the street at that level? This is an honest question, I don't know the answer to.
And to answer your last question, I know of three people who daily drive their boosted or nitrous injected j-series on a stock bottom end.
#83
Team Owner
You generally speak truth when I see your posts but this post has a few things that I would like to reply on. Firstly, my j35a8 was a daily driver and its a daily driver and made for one hell of a dependable daily at that. Before installing the 3.7, I was throwing 12-15lbs of boost at the a8 in stock form. The 3.7 will be receiving the exact same treatment. I will say that the j-series loves to detonate when heat soaked and under heavy boost however Hondata gave an easy solution to this with individual cylinder ignition trim under knock detonation although was limited to how much it could pull...not to mention add. Never got my last engine dyno'd but with 15lbs, I'd feel safe to say 550-575hp with meth injection on pump gas. The 3.7 from the 09-12 TL uses much stronger rods than any other j-series not to mention lighter forged aluminum pistons with a upper ring land about 1-2mm's lower than the a8's upper ring land but does have a 1/3 of a point higher compression ratio.
And to answer your last question, I know of three people who daily drive their boosted or nitrous injected j-series on a stock bottom end.
And to answer your last question, I know of three people who daily drive their boosted or nitrous injected j-series on a stock bottom end.
I'll still say the other Js won't run around at 6-700hp in a daily for long but my feelings won't be hurt if you prove me wrong. I'll b happy actually because I'm getting a new car next year and the TL won't be my daily anymore and I would love to throw a turbo on it without building the engine.
It sucks about how they went about the knock retard. It sounds like the best bet is to tune for zero knock which is entirely possible with meth and use an audible knock detector so you can lift at the first sign of knock.
I just wanted to make it clear I'm not against you guys that are saying a stock J can hold 700hp for a while but I would like to see a daily driver in the 6-700whp range go for a year.
#84
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
In the final stages of tuning at 12lbs+ boost, I found that the motors gave much more knock at 1700-3400 rpms and that was usually when the boost was at its peak amount. But then past that upper range I gave, things were as if the motor wasn't even seeing boost at all (in regards to knock counts). The mid-range I found was the hardest to tune for. After maybe 6-8 hours of datalogging under careful observation, it was eventually tuned nearly all the way out...even at 15lbs. It was a matter of pulling a few degrees off and adding a ever so slightly fuel charge to the 2-3 cylinders that were playing hardball but in the end I was nearly content with what Hondata alone could do. This time around, especially on this brand new motor, I'll be running J&S's Safegaurd knock monitor which can practically eliminate all chance of detonation by the individual cylinder trimming feature it carries. This will also allow me to go back into Hondata and completely eliminate those pesky knock tables all the way. In other words, the ECM won't be seeing any knock counts at all ANYWHERE because all my sensitivity tables will be "zero'd" out and this ultimately means that full advance will be given to bring full power out yet maintaining complete detonation protection. Anyone that knows the knock system principle behind Hondas ECM's will know the goodness this should bring.
As for your comment about being in the transitionary stage of these motors, for sure! We are all still learning a motor that's been masked from the performance realm due to inability to modify the ECM's parameters but since the release of Hondata, we should all begin to see this motor do some very extraordinary things that most engines in its class will be jealous of.
As for your comment about being in the transitionary stage of these motors, for sure! We are all still learning a motor that's been masked from the performance realm due to inability to modify the ECM's parameters but since the release of Hondata, we should all begin to see this motor do some very extraordinary things that most engines in its class will be jealous of.
#87
Team Owner
The knock in the lower rpms is probably because peak cylinder is occurring at those rpms.
Sounds like you have a great handle on the tuning, I'm looking forward to what you come up with in the future.
Sounds like you have a great handle on the tuning, I'm looking forward to what you come up with in the future.
#88
Senior Moderator
In the final stages of tuning at 12lbs+ boost, I found that the motors gave much more knock at 1700-3400 rpms and that was usually when the boost was at its peak amount. But then past that upper range I gave, things were as if the motor wasn't even seeing boost at all (in regards to knock counts). The mid-range I found was the hardest to tune for. After maybe 6-8 hours of datalogging under careful observation, it was eventually tuned nearly all the way out...even at 15lbs. It was a matter of pulling a few degrees off and adding a ever so slightly fuel charge to the 2-3 cylinders that were playing hardball but in the end I was nearly content with what Hondata alone could do. This time around, especially on this brand new motor, I'll be running J&S's Safegaurd knock monitor which can practically eliminate all chance of detonation by the individual cylinder trimming feature it carries. This will also allow me to go back into Hondata and completely eliminate those pesky knock tables all the way. In other words, the ECM won't be seeing any knock counts at all ANYWHERE because all my sensitivity tables will be "zero'd" out and this ultimately means that full advance will be given to bring full power out yet maintaining complete detonation protection. Anyone that knows the knock system principle behind Hondas ECM's will know the goodness this should bring.
As for your comment about being in the transitionary stage of these motors, for sure! We are all still learning a motor that's been masked from the performance realm due to inability to modify the ECM's parameters but since the release of Hondata, we should all begin to see this motor do some very extraordinary things that most engines in its class will be jealous of.
As for your comment about being in the transitionary stage of these motors, for sure! We are all still learning a motor that's been masked from the performance realm due to inability to modify the ECM's parameters but since the release of Hondata, we should all begin to see this motor do some very extraordinary things that most engines in its class will be jealous of.
#90
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
#91
My bad fellas, I was half asleep from studying all night, and saw something about mustang and 4.x ..... I just assumed that u we're saying u took. A stock 4.6 mustang motor slapped just a turbo kit and got those numbers. I'll admit it I assumed and made and ass outof myself
#92
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
I've never once had a transmission fail in any of my V6 Honda/Acura's (I have 4 total) with or without boost/nitrous. Its all about changing the fluid on time, using the right fluid and knocking how to NEVER shift under WOT. I at least go part throttle and this lessens the load on the clutches, bands and fluid.
#93
Team Owner
I'm still interested in the engine. I would have to see one hold together for a year in a daily to believe it. It's one thing to push some power and heat to 160 degree pistons for a short duration. It's another to put the power down when they're 500F+ from spirited street driving. I have to wonder if any precautions were taken such as ultra low coolant and oil temps. Anyone know what kind of water temps it saw at the beginning of a run; was the engine cold before the run?
You know the answer for the trans. Put it in a stripped down 1,600lb Civic and it will live for a few passes.
Just trying to give fsttyms1 a hard time.
You know the answer for the trans. Put it in a stripped down 1,600lb Civic and it will live for a few passes.
Just trying to give fsttyms1 a hard time.
#94
Team Owner
I've never once had a transmission fail in any of my V6 Honda/Acura's (I have 4 total) with or without boost/nitrous. Its all about changing the fluid on time, using the right fluid and knocking how to NEVER shift under WOT. I at least go part throttle and this lessens the load on the clutches, bands and fluid.
#95
Burning Brakes
Honda's are notrious for weak trannies when boosted. I do believe that a well equipped supercharger/rotrex kit in the 300-420 whp would do just fine, but once it goes right into 420-550+ whp would need some gears treated.
#96
Drifting
iTrader: (1)
I've never once had a transmission fail in any of my V6 Honda/Acura's (I have 4 total) with or without boost/nitrous. Its all about changing the fluid on time, using the right fluid and knocking how to NEVER shift under WOT. I at least go part throttle and this lessens the load on the clutches, bands and fluid.
redacted
Last edited by JJH; 10-29-2013 at 08:43 AM.
#98
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
You never shift under full throttle? So you rev the engine to 7k rpms and then let off the accelerator to the point of the needle dropping and then shift? Just curious as I'm a new manual drive myself and if I'm driving spirited, I shift between 6.8-7k rpms without any delay.
Example:
1. Foot comes off at 6600 RPMs.
2. Engine momentum continues to push the engine revs to 6800.
3. Transmission shifts to next gear.
4. Foot back down while transmission is shifting because if slight delay.
5. Engine torque reapplied
If done correctly, NO time is lost and you just took a great deal of stress off the transmission. I've been doing this for years and each car is different based on mechanically and electrical engagement points not to mention delay points. Works for me.
#99
Team Owner
I agree, best way to shift is with no engine torque being transferred and a good driver can do this very quickly. However, there's no such thing as engine momentum, it can never continue to acceleratate once power is taken away. I had the same argument with my dad over his GN. He said the car was so quick it continued to accelerate for a second after he lifted off the throttle. I proved it was the speedo that could not keep up and it caught up when he let off the gas, it's impossible for the car or engine to continue accelerating once the power is cut.
#100
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
"Momentum" was used for lack of a better term. You are correct technically speaking but it was more or less to describe the delay of say an electronically controlled throttle body closing once the signal from the accelerator position sensor is reading 0%. More like a electronic lag time I guess you could call it...
#102
Team Owner
Yungone I was just messing with you. I'm bored today l.
#103
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
IHC, I noticed your boredom.
#104
Team Owner
Yep. You can shut the injectors and ignition off all you want but if the engine is mechanically coupled to the wheels and in the wrong gear it's going to over rev.
Same concept here.
Same concept here.
#106
Senior Moderator
I'm still interested in the engine. I would have to see one hold together for a year in a daily to believe it. It's one thing to push some power and heat to 160 degree pistons for a short duration. It's another to put the power down when they're 500F+ from spirited street driving. I have to wonder if any precautions were taken such as ultra low coolant and oil temps. Anyone know what kind of water temps it saw at the beginning of a run; was the engine cold before the run?
You know the answer for the trans. Put it in a stripped down 1,600lb Civic and it will live for a few passes.
Just trying to give fsttyms1 a hard time.
You know the answer for the trans. Put it in a stripped down 1,600lb Civic and it will live for a few passes.
Just trying to give fsttyms1 a hard time.
#108
Team Owner
It did seize once. Did you see when they popped the clutch a couple times and it just locked up and smoked the tires? They got it freed up it looks like at the end. The reason it likely lasted that long is there was no cylinder pressure or heat from combustion. You could see the oil squirting up so while pressure was probably very low, it might have been enough to feed the rod and main bearings which only require oil to be fed to them but not pressure. What probably caused the siezing in the end was a lack of oil after it pumped the contents of the pan out or not enough cylinder lube from no oil slinging off of the crank from the rod bearings.
It gives a new appreciation for how quickly things happen. Just think, each time one piston had gone up and down twice the spark plug and injector have fired, intake and exhaust valves have opened and closed and let in and exhaled air and exhaust. Think about how quickly the air/fuel mix has to burn to force the pistons down and the science that goes into camshaft design and induction tuning to make all of that possible at those speeds.
It gives a new appreciation for how quickly things happen. Just think, each time one piston had gone up and down twice the spark plug and injector have fired, intake and exhaust valves have opened and closed and let in and exhaled air and exhaust. Think about how quickly the air/fuel mix has to burn to force the pistons down and the science that goes into camshaft design and induction tuning to make all of that possible at those speeds.
#109
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (3)
Not sure if any of you guys saw this one, but here's a J32 being run entirely by the MS3X from some guys at RPM Systems.
Obviously not practical in the TL since it would mean a total loss of the B-CAN & F-CAN network in the car.
But here it is, a 3.2 with DBW removed and a cabled throttle body run by a megasquirt 3.
Obviously not practical in the TL since it would mean a total loss of the B-CAN & F-CAN network in the car.
But here it is, a 3.2 with DBW removed and a cabled throttle body run by a megasquirt 3.
#111
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
There honestly nothing special about this. ^^^
There's literally dozens of standalone engine management systems (EMS) that can run just about any engine that's not a DBW. It actually would have made it more interesting to see the DBW still installed and functioning properly than this. Anyone can replace a electronic throttle body for a cable driven one and make it work.
To be even more straight forward, with overwhelming array in the available aftermarket electronics of today, it's not very surprising to see any engine being controlled by an EMS and still have 100% functionality in stock form. This is especially true for manual transmission powertrains. Automatics, due to their complexity and design indifferences, can be much more difficult to operate using any aftermarket controller but is still VERY possible.
There's literally dozens of standalone engine management systems (EMS) that can run just about any engine that's not a DBW. It actually would have made it more interesting to see the DBW still installed and functioning properly than this. Anyone can replace a electronic throttle body for a cable driven one and make it work.
To be even more straight forward, with overwhelming array in the available aftermarket electronics of today, it's not very surprising to see any engine being controlled by an EMS and still have 100% functionality in stock form. This is especially true for manual transmission powertrains. Automatics, due to their complexity and design indifferences, can be much more difficult to operate using any aftermarket controller but is still VERY possible.
#112
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (3)
There honestly nothing special about this. ^^^
There's literally dozens of standalone engine management systems (EMS) that can run just about any engine that's not a DBW. It actually would have made it more interesting to see the DBW still installed and functioning properly than this. Anyone can replace a electronic throttle body for a cable driven one and make it work.
To be even more straight forward, with overwhelming array in the available aftermarket electronics of today, it's not very surprising to see any engine being controlled by an EMS and still have 100% functionality in stock form. This is especially true for manual transmission powertrains. Automatics, due to their complexity and design indifferences, can be much more difficult to operate using any aftermarket controller but is still VERY possible.
There's literally dozens of standalone engine management systems (EMS) that can run just about any engine that's not a DBW. It actually would have made it more interesting to see the DBW still installed and functioning properly than this. Anyone can replace a electronic throttle body for a cable driven one and make it work.
To be even more straight forward, with overwhelming array in the available aftermarket electronics of today, it's not very surprising to see any engine being controlled by an EMS and still have 100% functionality in stock form. This is especially true for manual transmission powertrains. Automatics, due to their complexity and design indifferences, can be much more difficult to operate using any aftermarket controller but is still VERY possible.
Hadn't seen anyone else do it yet with the J32.
There is the megashift/GPIO for auto transmissions, but that would be quite a bit of research into the inner workings of the transmission, which solenoids are open at which time and such to get it to work right. I think all of that info may be in the SM though. I don't think it'd really be worth all of the work.
http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/4L60e.html
While not explicitly designed for the Acura ATs, I'm pretty sure with enough time and effort it'd work, it looks like it could support it since it supports up to 8 solenoids.
With the MS3X as a standalone ECM they would've still have to figure out the VTEC & IMT circuits to get the MS3 to control them, so I don't think it's really all that straight forward since there isn't much in the megamanual on those but they are really simple circuits. I'm pretty sure I saw some info on getting MS3 to control VTEC on DIYautotune somewhere though, or one of the associated forums.
I'm sure the cabled setup made it quite a bit simpler though, but they may have been able to use one of the MS3's extra outputs to try to control the DBW throttle body that would be an experiment in itself though. Probably be better to get it working on a cabled setup and then start playing with it to try for the DBW if it was really desired. I think in their swap, putting that engine in a different car, there's little purpose in having DBW anymore.
#113
Team Owner
I'll take a traditional throttle cable any day over DBW. I want to be in charge, I don't want the ECU to adjust my inputs, it can slow you down and it can even be dangerous in a higher powered car.
I would imagine the biggest reason for no aftermarket support of DBW is the liability. An aftermarket setup is not likely to have the failsafes and redundancies built in and I would imagine it's just not worth the R&D and the potential liability of run away engine claims and all of this for a dumbed down throttle response.
I would imagine the biggest reason for no aftermarket support of DBW is the liability. An aftermarket setup is not likely to have the failsafes and redundancies built in and I would imagine it's just not worth the R&D and the potential liability of run away engine claims and all of this for a dumbed down throttle response.
#117
Team Owner
Back in the day, the Mustang II front end was used in EVERYTHING, especially drag cars. It's a shame the majority of the TLs front suspension couldn't be used. I consider the Mistang front a downgrade but I'm sure he had to do it.
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HickamHatch (01-09-2014)
#118
Suzuka Master
#119
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
#120
Suzuka Master
Radiator in