Tunning a UA7 - I'll be the first (again)
03-06-2008, 04:32 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by 04accordcpe
using a piggyback like a emanage, is not considered "monkeying" with the ECM, that would be hondata your talking about (if and when it ever comes out 
). consider this, it would probably cost around 600-700 bucks for the reflash, but how much and what kind of hassle would it be to send it back and have them bring it back to stock??? you can get the emanage and a tune for about the same price. all the emanage is doing is tricking the ECM by intercepting signals, altering them and lying to its face to keep it happy. when its removed, there is no way in hell a dealer can know you were running a device like this.
). consider this, it would probably cost around 600-700 bucks for the reflash, but how much and what kind of hassle would it be to send it back and have them bring it back to stock??? you can get the emanage and a tune for about the same price. all the emanage is doing is tricking the ECM by intercepting signals, altering them and lying to its face to keep it happy. when its removed, there is no way in hell a dealer can know you were running a device like this.Correct, I was referring to directly changing the ECM (ala Hondata or others) and the comment was in regards to other things as well (like methanol). In other words, if you do something, just make CERTAIN you leave no "evidence" behind. In some cases, this even means removing harnesses and such PRIOR to ANY service appointments. If one of these guys drives a car in for an oil change with the boomslang attached a "tight-arse" service writer could document it and deny them service (then or in the future) do to the fact that they saw (at one time) an after-market fuel/air device on the car.
03-07-2008, 12:24 AM
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^ clarified that for me aswell as I didn't know what you were reffering to prior
Ps. I sure hope if an individual has tuned their car they do not go for an oil change at the dealer lol... Diy ftw
Ps. I sure hope if an individual has tuned their car they do not go for an oil change at the dealer lol... Diy ftw
03-07-2008, 12:30 AM
#44
~Da Nocturnal Cheetah~
Originally Posted by stillhere153
it isn't to make it richer... it's to see what more fuel top end could do... I mean even if I get 10hp or even 5hp from a safe tune, it will be a big difference... plus I will already have a base tune if I decide to get a blower
03-07-2008, 09:04 PM
#46
Senior Moderator
technically, could you not relocate the IAT sensor somewhere where it is much cooler so the car dumps more fuel into the motor? I mean this is what AEM says you can do to get more power by adding more fuel to the air.
03-08-2008, 01:09 AM
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It's what actros suggested I do... But.. It is just a temporary fix (ie. Like the o2 sensor defouler method)
I've been bouncing emails back and forth with boomslang, and they pretty much reccommend the emanage ultimate bexause I offers the most compatability with our car
The aem f/ic has not been tested on our car as of yet so I don't want to be a guniea pig for that one
I've been bouncing emails back and forth with boomslang, and they pretty much reccommend the emanage ultimate bexause I offers the most compatability with our car
The aem f/ic has not been tested on our car as of yet so I don't want to be a guniea pig for that one
03-08-2008, 04:04 AM
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OK, i dont want to sound rude or anything of the sort, so if it comes off that way, i apologize in advance. There is a good deal of information in this thread, and i have read a few things that dont seem 100% correct.
Air Fuel ratios for EVERY car MUST be in different ranges. Even from TL to TL or civic to civic, there WILL be an operable range, but everything has a different ideal range. For instance, on my other car, my tune would full well run a few cars that belong to people i know. Switching maps HAS cause some erratic behavior on cruise especially. My car is perfectly content cruising 16.1:1 or so, and other people i know with IDENTICAL equipment cannot cruise at the same AFR. Basing a tune for a car off of "target" afr's is an incomplete way to tune a vehicle. Im not saying it will blow up, or lose power, however, the combination of timing, afr, and conditions will be important. I would not be so concerned with the AFR as some richer combinations with more timing will create more hp/tq, or any combination of the two. Some lean conditions will do the same. The only problem, is that the knock threshold is different for all motors due to volumetric efficiency, and BSFC. Both are the defining elements of power, and tuning must be done on this basis. I know of a few people that can tune many cars, but even they have a comfort zone. They can nail tunes on a few cars very quickly, however, they lose that ability with others. I had a wrx that was very happy at WOT with 19psi, 33 deg of timing advance, 11.8:1-12.5:1 afr ranges, and pump gas on near 100 degree days here in florida. My supra on the other hand, likes the mid 11 range only, with gasoline based fuels, even race gas. Idling is leaner than Stoich 14.7:1, on leaded/unleaded gasolines, and yet, i can run rediculous timing advance, and crazy boost pressures on those same days.
Aside from all this garbage, i would NOT target an AFR. I would put the car on a dyno, tune until the onset of power is repeatable, and give the car some breathing room for corrective measures. In that, i mean timing corrections, and climate. Once you reach a good power level, and a clean curve without some violent onset, street tune the rest of the maps out. That way throttle accel and decel will be smooth, and the car doesnt jerk, like anyone needs any help with that anyway with that throttle by wire business. AFR targets are too specific to gasoline fuels in a conventional otto cycle engine at specific barometric pressures and temps.
Also, i saw a SOHC to DOHC comparison. Quantity of cams has little bearing on power from an efficiency standpoint. The design of the ports, combustion chamber, valve location/size, and accessory parts(headers, intake, etc..) make more drastic changes from a power standpoint. Here is what i mean -
61 cubic inches per liter is a close assesment of displacement. A 3.5 VQ would be 213.5 cu in. A 3.2 TL would be roughly 195.2.
so the ratio would be G35 - 213.5 cu in to 280 hp (2005 G35) and 195.2 cu. in. to 270 hp. The G35 would produce about 1.31 hp per cubic inch(or 80 per liter) The TL (also 2005) would produce 1.38 hp per cube(or 84.375 per liter). I wouldnt think the G is better based on those figures!? The smaller SOHC edges out slightly. I would be willing to bet this is due to many variables, just like the SOHC design itself is. Some of them like packaging, emissions, cost-efficiency, and im sure we could go on and on. In fact, a greater amount of energy is required to move two camshafts, rather than the single. Honestly, power production can be attributed to the cam profile, cylinder head construction, and exhaust parts more than anything else really, especially if static compression ratios are constant, and displacement doesnt change. If single and dual cams were so defining, cars like the new Zo6, and ZR1 corvettes, the viper, and other assorted pushrods would need more than the single cam in block they have. Pop the heads and cam out, replace with better stuff, and bam, tons of power, especially for the money with LSx based cars. Fox body mustangs, vettes, f-bodies and more have been doing this forever, and it wakes the car up significantly. Sure, the older ZR1 corvette was a quad cam, but the heads/motor were designed by yamaha and lotus from what i remember, and were LIGHT years better than the conventional GM product that came on the normal LT1/4 cars. Thats what made the LT5 a BAMF.
Im sorry this dragged on so long, but my novel is over. Hope I explained where i was coming from on this stuff, and maybe put a few things into another perspective. No matter what, however, good luck!
Take care
Mark
also, sorry if there is grammar and spelling issues, i cant sleep, and im still getting used to this natural keyboard thing.
Air Fuel ratios for EVERY car MUST be in different ranges. Even from TL to TL or civic to civic, there WILL be an operable range, but everything has a different ideal range. For instance, on my other car, my tune would full well run a few cars that belong to people i know. Switching maps HAS cause some erratic behavior on cruise especially. My car is perfectly content cruising 16.1:1 or so, and other people i know with IDENTICAL equipment cannot cruise at the same AFR. Basing a tune for a car off of "target" afr's is an incomplete way to tune a vehicle. Im not saying it will blow up, or lose power, however, the combination of timing, afr, and conditions will be important. I would not be so concerned with the AFR as some richer combinations with more timing will create more hp/tq, or any combination of the two. Some lean conditions will do the same. The only problem, is that the knock threshold is different for all motors due to volumetric efficiency, and BSFC. Both are the defining elements of power, and tuning must be done on this basis. I know of a few people that can tune many cars, but even they have a comfort zone. They can nail tunes on a few cars very quickly, however, they lose that ability with others. I had a wrx that was very happy at WOT with 19psi, 33 deg of timing advance, 11.8:1-12.5:1 afr ranges, and pump gas on near 100 degree days here in florida. My supra on the other hand, likes the mid 11 range only, with gasoline based fuels, even race gas. Idling is leaner than Stoich 14.7:1, on leaded/unleaded gasolines, and yet, i can run rediculous timing advance, and crazy boost pressures on those same days.
Aside from all this garbage, i would NOT target an AFR. I would put the car on a dyno, tune until the onset of power is repeatable, and give the car some breathing room for corrective measures. In that, i mean timing corrections, and climate. Once you reach a good power level, and a clean curve without some violent onset, street tune the rest of the maps out. That way throttle accel and decel will be smooth, and the car doesnt jerk, like anyone needs any help with that anyway with that throttle by wire business. AFR targets are too specific to gasoline fuels in a conventional otto cycle engine at specific barometric pressures and temps.
Also, i saw a SOHC to DOHC comparison. Quantity of cams has little bearing on power from an efficiency standpoint. The design of the ports, combustion chamber, valve location/size, and accessory parts(headers, intake, etc..) make more drastic changes from a power standpoint. Here is what i mean -
61 cubic inches per liter is a close assesment of displacement. A 3.5 VQ would be 213.5 cu in. A 3.2 TL would be roughly 195.2.
so the ratio would be G35 - 213.5 cu in to 280 hp (2005 G35) and 195.2 cu. in. to 270 hp. The G35 would produce about 1.31 hp per cubic inch(or 80 per liter) The TL (also 2005) would produce 1.38 hp per cube(or 84.375 per liter). I wouldnt think the G is better based on those figures!? The smaller SOHC edges out slightly. I would be willing to bet this is due to many variables, just like the SOHC design itself is. Some of them like packaging, emissions, cost-efficiency, and im sure we could go on and on. In fact, a greater amount of energy is required to move two camshafts, rather than the single. Honestly, power production can be attributed to the cam profile, cylinder head construction, and exhaust parts more than anything else really, especially if static compression ratios are constant, and displacement doesnt change. If single and dual cams were so defining, cars like the new Zo6, and ZR1 corvettes, the viper, and other assorted pushrods would need more than the single cam in block they have. Pop the heads and cam out, replace with better stuff, and bam, tons of power, especially for the money with LSx based cars. Fox body mustangs, vettes, f-bodies and more have been doing this forever, and it wakes the car up significantly. Sure, the older ZR1 corvette was a quad cam, but the heads/motor were designed by yamaha and lotus from what i remember, and were LIGHT years better than the conventional GM product that came on the normal LT1/4 cars. Thats what made the LT5 a BAMF.
Im sorry this dragged on so long, but my novel is over. Hope I explained where i was coming from on this stuff, and maybe put a few things into another perspective. No matter what, however, good luck!
Take care
Mark
also, sorry if there is grammar and spelling issues, i cant sleep, and im still getting used to this natural keyboard thing.
03-08-2008, 04:16 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by 722ish
For instance, on my other car, my tune would full well run a few cars that belong to people i know. Switching maps HAS cause some erratic behavior on cruise especially.
Also, i forgot something... The power UNDER the curve on the tune will prove far more beneficial than peak power. You make less for more time, sometimes it will prove to be a better situation than peak power for shorter periods of time...
again, sorry about the long windedness of my post,
take care
Mark
03-08-2008, 05:49 AM
#50
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Nice... Good info, I have read a few of your posts about air fuel ratio and your experience with many cars from other posts regarding the apexi afc...
I wish it was compatible with our car... But since it isn't oh well
My general idea is to work with this tuner who is confident he can get the timing and map it out... The idea of it aswell would be to allow other members to have a tune to follow, maybe even having a download which you guys can upload onto your own emanage and run with it, of course updates available too...
I am putting this on my first line of objectives... Even tho I have other things I'd like to do... Will update when I get aem wideband uego
I wish it was compatible with our car... But since it isn't oh well
My general idea is to work with this tuner who is confident he can get the timing and map it out... The idea of it aswell would be to allow other members to have a tune to follow, maybe even having a download which you guys can upload onto your own emanage and run with it, of course updates available too...
I am putting this on my first line of objectives... Even tho I have other things I'd like to do... Will update when I get aem wideband uego
03-08-2008, 03:00 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by stillhere153
Nice... Good info, I have read a few of your posts about air fuel ratio and your experience with many cars from other posts regarding the apexi afc...
I wish it was compatible with our car... But since it isn't oh well
My general idea is to work with this tuner who is confident he can get the timing and map it out... The idea of it aswell would be to allow other members to have a tune to follow, maybe even having a download which you guys can upload onto your own emanage and run with it, of course updates available too...
I am putting this on my first line of objectives... Even tho I have other things I'd like to do... Will update when I get aem wideband uego
I wish it was compatible with our car... But since it isn't oh well
My general idea is to work with this tuner who is confident he can get the timing and map it out... The idea of it aswell would be to allow other members to have a tune to follow, maybe even having a download which you guys can upload onto your own emanage and run with it, of course updates available too...
I am putting this on my first line of objectives... Even tho I have other things I'd like to do... Will update when I get aem wideband uego
Im not sure i remember what you are talking about with my prior posts? I dont remember that to be honest.
If the tuner is well experienced, im sure they can sort it out just fine. Sometimes running the car a little rich, and cranking the timing will make good torque. Some cars eat the timing up!
good luck either way,
take care
Mark
03-08-2008, 08:58 PM
#54
Senior Moderator
stillhere, if you do get the car tuned, when you get it tuned, look out for the valve chattering. If after the tune you don't have it, its probably a tuning error by honda.
03-08-2008, 09:00 PM
#55
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by jdmspec333
you want more power? get rid of that auto transmission. you're going nowhere fast. unless you're bracket racing.
03-09-2008, 12:35 AM
#56
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Originally Posted by jdmspec333
you want more power? get rid of that auto transmission. you're going nowhere fast. unless you're bracket racing.
or should I get a cbr
03-11-2008, 02:05 AM
#58
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nah man I am a honda lover... I was going to look into the new evo... but it isn't worth it for crusing... I mean it is soooo ugly.... s2k with a cf top... and remove it when it's sunny 
03-11-2008, 08:36 AM
#62
Toyota makes it difficult and expensive to work their cars.
I remember trying to work on a friend's Camry, the freakn engine is rotated, so in order to change the plugs you have to be able to get underneath and next to the firewall.
Also if you want to buy bushings, you have to buy the whole freakn arm. WTF. TG for Honda.
I remember trying to work on a friend's Camry, the freakn engine is rotated, so in order to change the plugs you have to be able to get underneath and next to the firewall.
Also if you want to buy bushings, you have to buy the whole freakn arm. WTF. TG for Honda.
03-11-2008, 09:20 AM
#63
~Da Nocturnal Cheetah~
Man, that IS-F is the SHIT! It is over-priced like a mofo, but it is nice as hell!! If I could afford that, I would dare anybody to "bring it"! That mofo looks mean on the track! 
03-12-2008, 02:23 AM
#65
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Originally Posted by korrupted
Toyota makes it difficult and expensive to work their cars.
I remember trying to work on a friend's Camry, the freakn engine is rotated, so in order to change the plugs you have to be able to get underneath and next to the firewall.
Also if you want to buy bushings, you have to buy the whole freakn arm. WTF. TG for Honda.
I remember trying to work on a friend's Camry, the freakn engine is rotated, so in order to change the plugs you have to be able to get underneath and next to the firewall.
Also if you want to buy bushings, you have to buy the whole freakn arm. WTF. TG for Honda.
What toyota's are hard to work on? Ill leave the camry up to you, but the supra is easy as it gets. I refuse to work on anything FWD, its fine for my daily, but i dont ever want to work on my toilet of a TL. Fuckin overpriced accords. I guess at least it looks better, but torquesteer is the most annoying bullshit ever.
An S2k is neat, but its a worthless toilet when it comes to making power or any form of speed. An STi or EVO would be much faster at everything, and can seat real humans. Plus, you dont look like you are pimpin a fancy miata.
03-12-2008, 07:42 AM
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03-13-2008, 11:50 AM
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Maybe the supra chassis isn't perfect, however.. I dont think the exige is worth a shit itself.
Try www.gscmotorsports.com , they almost collectively won the one lap of America with a bolt ons supra
60-0 in sub 110 ft, lowest recorded was near 100 flat
.96g on a skidpad, this on crap tires from 1993, quite a few have updated tires and do
well over 1g with little to no more modification
aluminum suspension and crossmember, not to mention other miniscule detail
0-60 between 4.4 - 4.6
some higher and lower depending on where you look
0-1320 in 12.8-13.6 again, depends where you read
194 mph bone stock with governer removed - 217 mph is full well possible with a mildly modified supra @7200 rpm
Current stock block record is near 1150 whp - sorry, no proof for now, will do later
I've seen in person a 1500 whp car on a stock transmission and diff
I also know of a few 200k + mile cars in the 10's or better- daily driven
9.001 is the current stock bottom end record
and factory 6speed cars are nearly in the 7's on all stock driverrain with internals
Tell you what- go drive one in good shape, or make sure you ride in a well driven one
then reassert what you say
no worries, I'm not saying everyone needs to like it, but most fact gets overlooked
Try www.gscmotorsports.com , they almost collectively won the one lap of America with a bolt ons supra
60-0 in sub 110 ft, lowest recorded was near 100 flat
.96g on a skidpad, this on crap tires from 1993, quite a few have updated tires and do
well over 1g with little to no more modification
aluminum suspension and crossmember, not to mention other miniscule detail
0-60 between 4.4 - 4.6
some higher and lower depending on where you look
0-1320 in 12.8-13.6 again, depends where you read
194 mph bone stock with governer removed - 217 mph is full well possible with a mildly modified supra @7200 rpm
Current stock block record is near 1150 whp - sorry, no proof for now, will do later
I've seen in person a 1500 whp car on a stock transmission and diff
I also know of a few 200k + mile cars in the 10's or better- daily driven
9.001 is the current stock bottom end record
and factory 6speed cars are nearly in the 7's on all stock driverrain with internals
Tell you what- go drive one in good shape, or make sure you ride in a well driven one
then reassert what you say
no worries, I'm not saying everyone needs to like it, but most fact gets overlooked
03-13-2008, 11:57 AM
#72
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sorry, posting from my phone, wouldn't let me scan through the box
I wasn't saying everyone needs to like it, some may, some may not
There is however a significant level of engineering that you dont see regularly, it costs 70+k these days to surpass this by any margin, and normally that won't happen without a hit in gas mileage or other compromises. It is a very well rounded gt car, and pounded almost every car at the onelap a new one. The only problems were aftermarket parts, and its a shame, they were competing with henessy and a gt3 cup 911, both with huge $$ and support
GSC were privateers using only assistance from supraforums.com
Again, sorry to sidetrack,
take care
Mark
I wasn't saying everyone needs to like it, some may, some may not
There is however a significant level of engineering that you dont see regularly, it costs 70+k these days to surpass this by any margin, and normally that won't happen without a hit in gas mileage or other compromises. It is a very well rounded gt car, and pounded almost every car at the onelap a new one. The only problems were aftermarket parts, and its a shame, they were competing with henessy and a gt3 cup 911, both with huge $$ and support
GSC were privateers using only assistance from supraforums.com
Again, sorry to sidetrack,
take care
Mark
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