Jaco

iTrader: (1)

Its about time for my next oil change, about 6500 on the current oil. Last time I was able to pick up a Mobil 5L jug and mobil oil filter for $30 from AZ. Any deals like that out right now?

Thanks.

iraqura

check ur local o'reilly auto store if u have one just picked up a deal of 5 quarts of 5 20 n kn filter for 43 with tax. n how's that oil looking after 6500? nasty!

BradE

Advance Auto Parts has 5 quarts of Mobil 1 and a M1 oil filter for $27.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ and you can print out a coupon and save 10 more bucks

Frankie02

normally my Royal Purple is turning into Royal chocolate at 50%.

EndleszgenTL

personally i never go out looking for "the Deal" lmao i go with whats best. i always run royal purple on my car with a K and N oil filter.. best results.. ive used it on my girl's TL and it works great too.. its pricey but works best. plus u can get almost 7-8K from it. more then what the Oil notification tells you

BradE

Hate to inform you, but go look at some used oil analysis. Mobil 1 consistantly performs better than Royal Purple, at 20-30% less cost. For the retail price of Royal Purple you can buy Amsoil or Redline, both of which are vastly superior.

Xpditor

If you ever want to get serious about lubrication and oil filters, visit www.bobistheoilguy.com. Their library contains Virgin Oil Analyses (VOA) and Used Oil Analyses (UOA) of all brands of oil. They also test filters.

Amazingly, WalMart's SuperTech brand of regular oil and filters are near the top of the quality lists.

These days, any well-known name brand synthetic is very good with differences between them minimal. I have used Mobil 1, Castrol Syntec (German), and Valvoline SynPower synthetic with equal confidence. I always have my used oil analyzed by a laboratory and all oils have done extremely well since new with the lab recommending I extend to 6-7,000 miles between oil changes.

My car gets so few miles, that I end up changing once a year instead of by mileage. Even then, I still have 40-50% left on the Maintenance Minder.

There is a BIG difference between filters. These are important to oil life. The best are Wix, Mobil 1, Purolater One. The worst are Fram. Read it and weep. Frams are nick-named "The Orange Death" on that oil engineer's forum.

FYI: We do not permit links to COMPETING car fora. The link I provided is not in competition with Acurazine and is not a car forum.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ so dude....since my girl has a civic and doesnt want to spend too much on an oil change but want to get synthetic...i always use penzoil plat 5-20 and fram filter....

you think penzoil plat 5-20 and supertech filter will be a better option ??? if not what else would u recommend? valvoline / mobil 1 ???

EndleszgenTL

thats odd. because ive used mobile 1 and it lasted 1k less then royal.. its not much of a diff but i mean it counts when moneys tight. 1k is one 1k miles.. lol

Xpditor

What is your measure of that "lasting"? Are you going by the Maintenance Minder? Because it doesn't know what kind of oil you are using. It goes by your usage, temperatures, mileage, type of driving (stop and go vs. over-the-road).

IOW, the MM doesn't analyze the remaining oil. That's why I send mine to the lab.

And, if you got 1,000 more miles on the MM between recommended OCIs (Oil Change Intervals), it has nothing to do with the oil but is due to a difference in driving and conditions.

Xpditor

Personally, from what I have read in my research, I wouldn't use a standard Fram filter under any circumstances. In fact, when I read about them, I had just changed oil/filter about a week before. I had put one of Fram's best premium filters on. I took it off and replaced it with a Mobil 1 filter and had to add a quart of Mobil 1 because of what I lost on the change.

To answer your questions specifically: Yes, I would prefer a Supertech oil filter over a Fram. I forgot who makes them but IIRC it is Wix. Pennzoil platinum is good. As I said, I would have no problem with any modern major brand oils. My preference is for sythetic because I feel it has more detergent additives and will last longer. The tribologists say that, if you changed the filter only every 5k or so and top off when/if the level drops, you could safely go for a long time on synthetic oil.

But, the bottom line is, you don't try and save a few bucks or go with the low bidder on neurosurgery or engine oil (or tranny fluid). It's something you do a couple times a year so why not spend a couple dollars extra for the peace of mind.

Royal Purple is good also. I just don't subscribe to it's Magical Mystery rep. I'm not a big believer in all the after market "snake oils" that are out there either. I figure Honda/Acura has to warranty our expensive engines for a long time. They have to pay if it breaks. So why would they cheap out on the fluids? If they knew of something that was better, they would use it.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ thanks a lot dude !!! yeah i think PP 5W-20 and SuperTech is what am gonna go for her car next time around !!!

I get the PP 5W-20 and KNN filter

plus both cars go thro oil changes every 5K !!! Thanks a lot for helping out !!!

I hate cars

No disrespect but bobistheoilguy is the last place on the planet I would go for oil advice. You have a better chance of getting a knowledgeable answer right here. The engineers are long gone from there. All that's left are the idiots.

UOAs are not a way to measure engine wear. I have been over this time and time again. They only measure particles below a certain size. The large particles caused from rapid wear go completely undetected. I've had two engines fail with sparkly oil and the UOAs came back great.

The ONLY thing UOAs are good for is detecting coolant leaks and oil life remaining. Using them to choose an oil based on a few PPM of wear metals in a very narrow range is a tragedy.

Again, my real world teardown results go against UOA results.

Bob is full of a bunch of internet know it alls with absolutely no knowledge of lubrication or cars. They read a few posts and become instant experts. I encourage everyone to stay far, far away from that site, you will be led in the wrong direction.

As for filters, Mobil One, K&N, etc are all mediocre.

The only filters that stand out are Amsoil EAO, Donaldson, and Royal Purple. These are the only filters with a synthetic glass media that will outflow, outfilter, outlast, and hold more dirt. The rest are a far second place.

If you're not running a "real" synthetic like Motul, Redline, some Amsoil products, and some (not many) Mobil One products, shop by price because they're all about the same.

Xpditor

You are entitled to your opinion... even if I think it is wrong-headed. I based my comments on scientific studies published on that forum, not on the anecdotal posts of members. These studies have been done over the last 8-10 years and remain valid. Your comments here are, on the contrary, anecdotal and your personal view. Why would I give them any more credibility than you suggest that I give to the members of a dedicated oil forum? Do you have a lubrication engineer degree? If so, let me know and I will give appropriate weight to your views.

Again, I think you are passing along things you heard from anecdotal postings or assumptions. But, let's look at it from a common sense perspective. We can then both have opinions.

Wear is different from breakage. Wear takes metal down in microscopic layers and those metals are specific to bearing surfaces, such as copper, chromium, lead, tin, aluminum. Your point that larger particles won't be suspended in the UOA sample is taken. They would be trapped (hopefully) in the oil filter. What you fail to note is that those larger particles could not possibly exist without the smaller contamination accompanying it. IOW, you can't have JUST large particles without the smaller ones showing up in the lab report. However, it is important to warm the engine oil up (and stir it up) before collecting the sample of used oil for analysis.

I would note that I have many years of experience as a Marine Engineer (floating mechanic). In that profession and similar land-based professions dealing with the management of large fleets of vehicles including very expensive, large diesel engines, we depend on lab reports of used oil together with accumulated engine hours to determine when engine overhauls are due. It has been that way since engines were invented and continues as a necessary tool to responsible fleet management. The lab would tell us when the cumulative numbers indicated bearings were worn and due for replacement. Upon tearing down the engine, our physical examination and measurement always confirmed the labs finding.

Those lab reports were also useful, as you mention, to reveal contaminants such as water and coolant. The importance of this should not be brushed off. These are serious issues needing immediate attention and usually told of fractures, gasket failure or corrosion problems.

Then, the lab reports showing "insolubles" (yes, they do show large particles which have been centrifuged from the oil. This is different from the spectrographic analysis) and/or the presence of silicon. This speaks to the efficacy of the air filter(s).

Thanks for sharing your experience. My experience and tear-downs confirm UOA.

And you are different from them in what way?

Do you want to cite some studies so we don't confuse you with those Internet know-it-alls your warned us about?

I would restate and partially agree that, if you choose a major brand full synthetic, blend, or dino oil, use a good filter and observe reasonable oil change intervals, there will be little measurable difference in performance. Oil heads tend to go way overboard in pursuit of perfection.

There's no such thing as a perpetual engine that will last forever. Yet. But if one does come along, I won't be surprised if it say says "HONDA" on it. LOL

Majofo

on a side note, Pep Boys usually runs specials on RP filters.. I'm just about to change out both on the TL & MDX. I'll autopsy those suckers & post up a new thread. Champion labs outdid themselves with the RP filters, definitely worth the few extra $ IMO.

I hate cars

Some studies published long ago are good valid studies. If you look back on some of my posts I always suggest that if anyone were to look for advice over there to start searching for something more than 2 years old. "Molakule's" work comes to mind.

But you also have Dr Haas who is a very educated doctor that writes well. Unfortunately it makes him sound like he knows something about oil. People take his "studies" as fact when I can poke many, many holes in them.


So I need to be an oil engineer to give any weight to my views huh? What is it that you do for a living again? Please! All you've offered is anecdotal crap and attacked me without a base of your own.

The members of the "dedicated oil forum" are a bunch of know it alls who know nothing. I used to watch daily as a newb would get on there and post several retarded questions where it was obvious he knew nothing of the inner workings of an engine yet by day 3 he's giving "expert" advice to other newbs. These same people refer to the inside of an engine as "nooks and crannies". They don't even know the names of anything or how it works yet they're explaining why thin/thick/synthetic/dino oil is the best. I got tired of watching people seeking genuine advice getting steered the wrong way.


Wow, pot-kettle-black. You think wrong. I build race engines in real life, not on the internet. You ASSume too much.

I post my real life experience which is pretty substantial. If I'm not sure of something I post it as an opinion. If there is someone that knows more on the subject I refer them to others like CSW Biggs in the audio section, Inaccurate in the performance section, or Majofo for electrical issues. The difference here is I state facts as facts and opinions as opinions.
No, no, no, no. You are waaay off on this one. You have a bad habit of picking and choosing what part of my sentences you reply to.

You're assuming large particles(>9 microns) are from breakage. You can have >20 micron wear particles.

I never said a thing about larger particles not being suspended in oil. I said the spectrographic analysis won't pick up particles greater than a certain size, not that they're not there.

You need to do more research. It's been proven that the upper threshold of spectrographic analysis is still smaller than what most filters can filter out. In other words you have these particles that are too large to be detected yet too small to be filtered.
So you're saying that an engine with tons of hours showed wear? What would you expect, seriously?

You're just a mechanic. You question my credibility? That's humorous.

And you fail to mention that there is usually a tracer compound built in to things like cylinders in commercial engines that the UOA picks up once wear hits a certain point.

You also fail to mention that trending is used, not a once or twice UOA to determine the condition of an engine. Once you establish a trend for an engine family over hundreds of UOAs you can then use them to HELP predict wear. This is not the case as they're used for the average person on this board.
Yes, as I mentioned UOAs are good for many things, just not for determining wear.
As I stated UOAs have a place but it's not to gauge engine wear unless as I stated you've got an average of a certain engine family over hundreds of UOAs. Unfortunately people base oil choice on a few PPM which is retarded.

Redline oil states on their website how just the chemistry in the oil will show very bad "wear" numbers. Why? Because it cleans the oxidation off of things and oxidation in the oil will show super high wear metals.

And you ignore my experience with sparkly oil yet good UOA results on several different occasions. Why would yours be any more valuable than mine? All we know is that a UOA can possibly show additional wear but it can also show everything to be fine yet your bearings are worn to the backing. What good is that?


Real life experience. Teardowns. Experimenting with many, many different combos but on this subject, thin vs thick oil, high zinc and phosphorus vs low, high HTHS vs low HTHS. I've seen the lack of piston ring land deposits with ester based oils (Redline). I've seen the huge reduction in rod and main bearing wear with the higher HTHS oils. I can go on for days. But I have a feeling you don't really care about any of this, you were trying to belittle me.


There are many studies. Plenty at your precious Bob. There is one with an actual particle count showing how synthetic glass media filters like Amsoil, RP, and Donaldson absolutely blow the competition away.

There's a study by General Motors of the effects of HTHS on engine bearing and cylinder wear where we see 1/5 the bearing wear going from a 2.6 HTHS to a 3.6.

There's teardown results by a guy I can't remember his name anymore, he's left bobistheoilguy surprise surprise but he really knew his stuff. I've posted a link here before. He worked at a dyno shop and posted results of engines run hard with Redline and other oils in identical conditions but with drastically different teardown results. He owns a truck with 500,000 miles with Redline on the original engine. All the employees at his shop run Redline in their personal cars.

There's the Ford engineer, part of the design team for Ford's modular engine program that said he wouldn't use a 20wt in any modular engine, that it's just for CAFE standards.

It's all there, you just have to find it. But if you're like the rest of them, you ignore any facts that point to expensive ester based oils protecting better and use the straw man argument for the rest of the mediocre oils.
Yes, I'm one of them that go overboard. But I always state that I tend to be OCD so the people on this board can make their decisions based on that. I know the TL will live a long life on $2 quart oil yet I run $10 quart oil but at least I don't hide it like most all people do.
I'll leave that one alone.

WRXtranceformed

IHC which Amsoil version do you recommend the most? I was a dealer and am still a preferred customer, but I've tried out several different versions to figure out which gives me the longest change intervals vs. the cost. I'm on the 100% synthetic 0w20 right now (next step down from the signature series) and I tried the XL 5w20 last oil change.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

This thread delivers.

Xpditor

IHC: I'm not picking arguments with you or belittling you. I'm debating your comments, in some cases, and asking you to back up what you are saying. Separating the wheat from the chaff. As you point out, the Internet is full of know-it-alls. So it's only natural to ask you how you come by your opinions.

I was a marine engineer for Johns Hopkins University, Applied Physics Lab and in charge of lots of diesel engines. The ship I was on had ten. I jokingly refer to the work as floating mechanic as the usual kind of engineers seldom get grease under the fingernails. I will compare engine tear-downs with you any time.

I understand you are a big fan of Amsoil. Perhaps you are a dealer? I have nothing bad to say about Amsoil except that I think it is overblown and overpriced. But, that's for each to decide. It is one of the best oils available. It tops the lists I have seen on almost every lab report. But the 2nd and 3rd place oils are pretty close and a whole lot more affordable.

You say "You're just a mechanic and you question my credibility?" Well, yes. If I were a ditch-digger, I would question your creds. You sound as if you expect me to just believe you without question because you have said that you have torn down lots of engines and you have read a lot on the topic. You feel that trumps being a trained, professional in the field?

But, let's quit focusing our sights on each other and instead try to share what knowledge we have with the members here backed up with supporting studies, drilled down as far as people want to go.

Since you didn't mention Fram filters, can I assume you agree with my characterization of them? Using cardboard where others use metal, etc?

I will give weight to what you say about BITOG since I have not been active over there for a couple of years. I pop in from time to time just to hit the library for studies. I don't post or read many posts.

Our own 3G Garage sticky thread has a ton of good info posted by Road Rage with attached studies to support.

This subject always raises hackles and emotions. People are opinionated to say the least. I suggest we look for things we agree upon for the benefit of the members who are looking for guidance.

I hate cars

I probably got too defensive mostly due to bitog. I would love to compare notes. I don't mind being proven wrong, but I won't go down easy lol.

I'm on an ester kick right now so that rules out Amsoil. I've got Redline in the engine and trans.

Just got to Vegas so I'll get back to this one after the hangover wears off in a few days.

Majofo, hope to see you out here.

Majofo

You bet! I'll be wheels down tomorrow..

Xpditor

That's cool. I'm just booking my flight to Vegas for a convention at the end of May. It's a yearly thing. I always have a good time there but I'm not into gambling. There's plenty of other stuff to do.

BTW, have you ever gone to the car museum at Harrah's Imperial Palace? It's one of my favorite stops in Vegas. A great collection of classics including muscle cars. Check it out.

Majofo

cool.. I've only checked out the exotics at Caesar's.. I think you have to pay admission to see them though, nice cars but not worth paying to see. My fiancee and her sister want to see a burlesque show while we're there so we'll be checking out Crazy Horse..

steve033

New to AcuraZine...want to confirm that the Oil Life indicator does not mean capacity held, but yet a reminder of when to have it changed?

I believe other threads and blogs have said change at 15%

2006 TL/Nav, and love it!

Much appreciated.

Xpditor

Well, they do charge a small admission. I think it's about $5. I'm sure you'll be stuffing more than that in some G-Strings.

Xpditor

You are correct. It doesn't measure oil volume. It uses an algorithm based on miles, rpms, temperature..... in other words your driving style and atmospheric conditions. It predicts the usable life of the oil remaining.

Majofo

Oh I thought it was more.. I guess after seeing some of the photos from the DFW Cars & Coffee meets I felt cheated nonetheless.. lol. and .. uh... What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.. except Herpes, that shit comes back with you..

Back OT, I'll post up the RP filter autopsies from the J32 & J35 when I get back..

roachcane77

I haven't heard this addressed in awhile... is it possible to change oil TOO OFTEN?

Xpditor

You can never be TOO thin, too rich, or change your oil TOO much.

It would just be wasteful and unfriendly to the environment. But, it wouldn't hurt anything.

I hate cars

Not really. There are studies of the reaction of ZDDP in new oil. Basically a certiain percent burns off and goes out the exhaust immediately while the rest may get consumed very slowly. ZDDP supposedly kills catalytic convertors. Newer SM oils (the ones recommended for the TL) have a cap on how much zinc and phosphorus (ZDDP) the oil can have. I believe it's around 600ppm but don't quote me on that.

Nothing has been proven. I've run an oil with 1,400ppm of ZDDP for most of the car's 86,000 miles without any trouble and I change it twice as often as the mid says to. ZDDP is an excellent anti-wear additive especially for rubbing areas such as cam to follower and piston rings to cylinders.

In short, what Xpditor said. It won't hurt anything but it probably won't help anything.

Where a lot of people who tend to agree with me stop agreeing is that I use the oil filter for two changes. Since I'm changing the oil much more often than most, using an oil that can go extermely long intervals and using a premium filter, the only disadvantage to running the filter again is you get half a quart of old oil still in the system. However, it eliminates half of the dry starts.

I hate cars

And it's calibrated for regular oil. So using a synthetic and going by the MID is super conservative.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

since we are at it, what is the difference between regular oil and the oil for high mileage cars ??? MY car is at 125K, should i make a switch to high mileage oil ???

Majofo

you might want to consider going to a higher viscosity but for the most part those type of marketing campaigns to sell "high mileage" oil is a farce, they're usually regular base stock group III or lower with different additive packs. Stick with a good group IV-PAO or group V-esther based oil & move to 5w-30.

edit: last day in LV.. I got majorly hammered here with my good buddy from HI, saw some , lost a lot of money on the tables, saw some ridiculously fast cars including the Nuremberg King Viper ACR, watched JJ take out his team mate FTW & lap Jr... in all it's been a great trip, but back to reality.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

so i think i should get the mobil 1 extended performance 5w-30 or mobil 1 high mileage 5w-30....

the reason am not hitting up RP or Redline is because I dont track my car....drive spirited 15% of the times....and change my oil+filter every 5K....

Majofo

If you stick with M1 you should use EP, has more PAO base synthetic stock.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Thanks a lot man !!!

I might switch from PP 5w-20 to M1 EP 5W-30 !!! along with M1 or KNN oil filter !!!

Majofo

both decent filters but the M1 is definitely a step up from the K&N.. both are made by champ labs. RP is the step up from M1 but if you change your oil & filter every 5k.. you should use the M1 filter.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

WOW...i always thought KNN was a step up....but damn i was wrong !!!

How would you say PP 5w-20 is to M1 EP and M1 or Valvoline ??? This is for my girls civic, along with SuperTech filter (she doesnt want to spend too much on her car for an oil change and couple post back Xpeditor said SuperTech was better than Fram, hence I said Supertech) !!!

BradE

Penzoil Platinum isn't a bad oil. Most of the oils that are out today are more than servicable, and not what I'd call "bad". SuperTech filter isn't horrible either, better than Fram with the cardboard endcaps. You could look at Purolator PureOne filters as well, they are pretty good and cost around $5 each or so.