Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Opel is the only one I have heard of who has blown more than one engine.

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

injectors i believe rsx s 310 injectors. not sure if the year makes a diff(03-07)???
some one also stated that the rdx 410 would work as well(they may be cheaper)

meth kit is either the aem or snow 2. it seems everyone leans towards the snow. not sure of the comparison.

for the tune i believe the aem is best. all controls are in one unit..

after reading endless posts and asking many questions (sorry) ive come to a better understanding of what it takes to run a "reliable" s/c tl. read and see what works best with what your goal may be.. gl.

mrlunecy

iTrader: (1)

I've been running the SC since 10k miles, currently 38k miles (2 years). So far no noticeable problems. Running on regular boost pulley, B&M 1500 btu tranny cooler and hondata prelim. reflash, so I feel my tunning is a bit safer than just plain ol' ACM, since the surging has dissapeared and the audible pinging at WOT has also gone since tunning right after installing the blower. I'm also monitoring with AFR wideband and boost press. gauges

I'm gaining interest in adding meth, so I guess it's time for some research! This thread is becoming very informative! good job guys!

Opel

There has been more than one informative threads and posts...i mean countless posts on this issue...problem is, threads get lost, and ppl just start a new thread, instead of a little search, or scrolling a few pages. I have been on this forum for a few months, and most of my posts are on this issue.

I guess everyone's trying to find the easy way out, same thread, after thread, after thread. I mean, look at how many CAI threads are there, and rambles about the same freaking thing, and at the end, nothing ever gets resolved, or determined, or decided on.

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

^^ +1
this info has been covered multiple times people! dont be lazy and do a simple search.

good idea on the meth kit. its an absolute no-brainer to install one if your supercharged.

only downfall is you wont reap the full benefits of the meth injection, unless you have hondata reflash the ecu again

trojanman10984

iTrader: (1)

does the tranny cooler make a big difference??

Evil_Pineapple

Is there somewhere i can learn all of this.... im very interested. I want to know about my car before i try to tweek it... I was wondering about the CR. Since its a high compression engine in the first place... could you just change that and run more boost? Or can you up the boost with the CR being what it is?

I hate cars

It will raise the octane requirement. On a given octane, you might be able to run 14psi on an 8:1 compression engine and only 4psi on an 11:1 engine. Raise the octane and you can raise the boost on both.

As a real world example, I run 14psi in my GN on 91. On 116 octane I run 29+psi. 91 octane on meth I keep it somewhat conservative at 24psi becuase once you hit detonation on meth, it's very bad, not linear like gasoline. 100 octane I run 20-22psi.

Evil_Pineapple

Whats CR on your GN? If im understanding you right... if you go higher than 91 octane on the TL the 11:1 CR can run more than 4-5psi?

I hate cars

Exactly. How high you can raise the boost safely is directly dependent on the amount of octane in the fuel. On 116 octane you could likely run 15-20psi, possibly more on 11:1. You still have to have the supporting mods like fuel pump and injectors that will maintain a consistent AF ratio throughout the boost range.

I bumped the compression on my GN from the stock 7.8 to 8.5 to help out with spool and because I knew I would be running good gas or meth injection all the time. In stock form on a "California" chip made for the crappy gas out here I could run about 18 psi.

Some of our pure methanol cars get away with 14:1 and nearly 30psi.

Evil_Pineapple

There is a gas station by my house that has pump gas of 93 octane... how could you get higher than that? There isnt a gas station that has 116...lol. Is that where the methanol comes in? Is that what raises the octane?


Your GN isnt MT is it? Im trying to decide if i want to do all this boosting on an AT. The tiptronic or sporttronic or whatever "pretend" manual trans the TL has is kind of fun but nothing like down shifting in a manual and taking off on someone.

Evil_Pineapple

Now does it also matter with the CR? I had a dodge stratus with the 2.4l Mitsubishi engine in it and it had a CR of 9. This engine could run 12-15 psi on stock internals... running 91 Why is it hard to run high boost on the TL with its CR of 11? Im probably asking the same damn questions over and over but im a little slow on the uptake....lol

Opel

116 is race gas, ur not gonna get that on a local gas station... and yes this is where methanol comes in.. 2 benefits..


1-lower intake air temps
2-Increase octane

put it this way...if you run 13-14 psi on a motor with 91-93 octane gas...with meth injection, you can prob run around 26 psi or more, depending on the motor.

meth has an octane rating of about 129-136, when that's mixed with 91-93 octane fuel, ur in the neighborhood of 116-117 octane fuel

I hate cars

Mine's an auto, turbo cars are quicker with an auto 99% of the time.

I hate cars

You have mechanical compression ratio which is 11:1 and effective compression ratio which depends on many things such as cam size. But the largest factor is boost. Boost will raise that effective compression easily into the 16:1 range. I figured my GN one time at 30 psi was around 18:1 effective. That's where the octane comes in and that's why you can't run as much boost for a given octane number on an engine that starts with higher compression.

Opel

In addition to what IHC said...

aside from the fact that you can run enough boost on 11 CR, what makes it hard on our motor is because the ring lands are WEAK...even if detonation doesnt break them...the extra pressure inside the chamber effects them tremendously. Our pistons are also dome shaped, which forces pressure towards the outer skirt of the piston, straight for the ring lands...on a flat piston, pressure is more balanced throughout the whole top surface. Pan piston gets it straight to the wrist pin, and IMO the latter is the best for boost.

Another thing is, the cylinder wall/piston/ring gap is so tight, it allows so little blowby, putting even more stress on the pistons.

My low compression piston/ring setup is set to allow a bit more blow than stock.

If youve ever heard the saying "boost doesn't like dome" lol but I sure as hell dont.

Evil_Pineapple

So... What makes the turbo kit so much better? If boost is boost then whats the difference in the amount of boost or strain on our motors from turbo to SC?


Another question i have is if the SC kit is so incomplete and you will have to add so many things to the formula to get it to run right... Why would anyone buy it? Why did YOU buy it?

Opel

its not really a turbo vs. SC kinda thing.... the main core difference is, the turbo kit is complete with a TUNING UNIT...which offers adjustment to be made on AFR, TIMING, VTEC, it also comes with bigger injectors and fuel pump, and Intercooler.

i explained why the SC was bought by people on post #33

heres one difference you can look at, but doesnt really justify which is better if ur motor is able to handle anything...

lets say you run 10 psi on a turbo and you're getting 450 whp
on a SC with the same boost youd get 30-40 less HP, due to power being robbed from the motor to spin the SC.
So to equal the turbo power output, you would have to run about 12 psi on the SC, which adds more strain to the motor.
However, i dont consider this to be that big of a difference...you could about equal them with a lighter flywheel and wheels on the SC setup lol

also powerbands are diffferent.... on the sc, youll make more boost as you go higher in the rpm band...but on a turbo, if set up right..you could have full boost a 2000 rpm and all the way across the board which would result in more low end and midrange power

Evil_Pineapple

If you did it all over again would you get the SC again or would you go turbo?

I hate cars

In additon, a turbo will usually give drastically cooler charge temps over a roots blower like the TL uses. My car sees roughly 100 degrees over ambient at 25psi. It's a very safe guess that the roots on the TL sees the same temps at 4psi.

I hate cars

I've built supercharged cars before and for me, there is absolutely no way I would go with a supercharger if a turbo was available. You'll get a wider powerband with the turbo, cooler charge temps with the turbo, you can turn boost up at the turn of a knob vs swapping a pulley, and less fuel system requirements for the same whp due to having no drag to run the supercharger.

Plus, when you nail it and have all that boost hit at once and you feel the skin on your face being pulled back and a headrush, nothing else compares. It's just brutal.

Evil_Pineapple

SOLD!!!!!



Now i have to decide if the fun factor will be the same in an AT....lol.


You guys have been very cool about all the answers. Ive learned alot from just these few posts... Thanks alot!!!

Opel

there goes ur answer...
reason of getting the sc was a quick answer to boost...i didnt have the luxury of having the car disabled while i work on it...the sc was a slap on in a matter of hrs...

if i had to do it all over...TURBO

just cause i already have the sc doesnt mean ive given up on turbo lol...

anyone looking for a sc? lol
ill include installation and get it done in about 3 hrs

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Definitely lots of good information from IHC and Opel.

With the meth setup, it adds more density to the charge. How does this benefit combustion and help reduce detonation. Or is it simply because the incoming charge is cooler reducing the chances of pre-ignition (detonation)?

I would think that without an intercooler, a turbo setup would be very prone to detonation especially on a high compression engine and it sounds like a meth setup is something we should all consider.

Evil_Pineapple

Now if was just RWD...lol

Opel

cooler air does mean lower combustion temps, but methanol will just increase octane and minimize pre-ignition and simply get rid of it, aside from lowering IATs...

higher IATs do increase combustion temps that can result in pre-ignition...it is why when its so hot out in the summer, youll feel that sluggish low end...thats the ECM pulling back timing because of knock caused by higher intake temps..

upto about 5 psi, honestly the need for IC isn't so drastic...but up from there in boost, and it becomes necessary for a lot of reasons, such as one of the main reasons being the much higher intake temps. other reasons, you can make more power, you can run more timing, and all the good stuff.

i honestly absolutely love methanol injection...and i recommended whether you're turbo or sc..with or without intercooler...especially with intercooler, there's tremendous differences being done...

it is such an easy mod, not so expensive. I think its just simply awesome

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

i just have one question for opel. If you blew some many engines and see how the system is incomplete, why do u still have it or did u rebuild your motor.

I hate cars

I'm not trying to speak for him, he'll be in here. But I know he lowered the compression and used forged pistons on this last engine.

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

[quote=KN_TL;11328437]Definitely lots of good information from IHC and Opel.

this was exactly the next question i had in mind. keep all info coming. I have the s/c starring at me everyday begging to be put in. but i really understood the depth of how this whole thing works with FI, temps, fuel,timing,(EVERYTHING)..Thanks..

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

^^really want to...... sorry..

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

^^ not sure if that came across correct. i really want to understand everything i can before i put it in. http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/ ... asics.html

^ really good article my cuz helped me out w.. can n e one tell me the max hp the 05 base AT engine and Tranny can hold please.? also, how much to lower compression on the motor?? is that labor intensive??thats not a diy is it?? if the motor blew with lowered compression..is it worth it??

I hate cars

The best advice I can give you for researching it on your own is forget compression and all that stuff. Start with detonation. If you can avoid detonation it will likely live a long life. Start with causes of detonation (too high compression is one of them). I'll be more than happy to help you out when I get a break at work.

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

^^ IHC ur help is always appreciated. no rush. i had a few ?? in my previous post. i read the article on detonation but i have to break it down and apply it..

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

high output engines are prone to destructive tendencies as a result of over boost, misfueling, mis-tuning and inadequate cooling. chamber combustion process can quickly gravitate to engine failure. Detonation is a spontaneous combustion of the end-gas and occurs after "normal" combustion is initiated by the spark plug. the reason is likely due to heat and pressure. The remaining fuel in the end gas simply lacks sufficient octane rating to withstand this combination of heat and pressure. <-- this is were the meth comes in?by raising the octane? what is meant by normal combustion. and im guessing the boost is what makes it a high combustion?? also i believe opel recomended spark plugs 2 steps colder then stock/ or the ct sprk plugs. will this lower high combustion??

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

Detonation is influenced by chamber design (shape, size, geometry, plug location), compression ratio, engine timing, mixture temperature, cylinder pressure and fuel octane rating. Backing off the spark timing will stop the detonation. <-- again does this apply with the 2 step colder spark plugs??

Octane is the ability to resist detonation.If the fuel you got was of a lower octane rating than that demanded by the engine's compression ratio and spark advance detonation could result and cause the types of failures previously discussed. <<-- implying meth should be ran all the time?.( the car would knock with just 91 octane???) also if using a 50/50 is the ocatane still at 116?? with the kits is there an on and off switch?? do the injectors come into play here? bigger "nozzle" can spray more or steadily through out the process gooling temps and high combustion??

I hate cars

First, look at what the compression ratio actually is. On the intake stroke, the piston is moving down, sucking in the AF through an open intake valve. You have a cylinder full (or as close as you can get) of an air and fuel mixture. As the piston goes up it compresses this mixture into a space 11 times smaller than it was before, that's why it's expressed as a ratio to 1. This compression creates heat. Too much can ignite and cause an explosion instead of a controlled burn. This is how diesels work without spark plugs.

Now throw boost on top of it. The piston is coming down but instead of having to suck the AF mix through the open intake valve, it's being force fed in there. When it's at the bottom of it's stroke and you have a 50% denser charge and compress it 11 times smaller, you're talking about an effective compression ratio many points higher than 11:1. Or in other words, the pressure is much higher when the piston reaches the top with the extra AF mixture in there.

Cooling helps but more importantly, more octane helps more.

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

Another thing you can do is increase the burn rate of the combustion chamber. The goal is the faster you can make the chamber burn, the more tolerant to detonation it is. It is a very simple phenomenon, the faster it burns, the quicker the burn is completed, the less time the end gas has to detonate<<-- how do we do that?? in the previous paragraph in te article it talks about degress in spark advance? not sure if that relates or is improtant..

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

IHC thanks for the quick response, now rather than just saying cr 11:1 i no wtf it means. so meth raising the octane will greatly decrease detonation? how else can u cool?? so meth is simply the answer??

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

it was also talking about the design. its example was towards the chrysler hemi wich believe hey needed to modify it similar to the tl?? stating they needed to make the hemi dome shaped to increase compression?

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

i got a night class i got to get to but i will be back later? thanks for all the input? i hope i expressed my questions clearly.. thanks..