type-s09

so is tuning required to run meth? i do not want to do any tuning with e-manage nor do i want to compromise my motor

tidus888

wikipedia is your friend

=)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

I hate cars

I have lots of experience with meth only, intercooler only, and both together.

Obviously both together work best.

Meth cools the inlet air and and raises octane.

The hotter the air, the bigger difference the meth will make (no intercooler). Temps will still be hotter with no intercooler but percentage wise the meth will do a better job.

On the TL, you don't have to worry about blowing the motor up if something in the meth system fails unless you've jacked the boost up to take advantage of the extra octane. At normal boost levels you will lose power and that's it if it fails.

20% of the total fuel for my GN comes from meth. If mine fails I blow a head gasket or worse but you can see why this is not an issue in the TL. The meth is being used as a coolant/octane booster, not as auxiliary fueling. You might be spraying 5% of the total fuel as meth.

Straight meth makes more power period. No water needed. No rubbing alcohol/water mix needed.

The progressive kits by Razor are seemless and extremely easy to install. You set the turn on point (prob 1psi for the TL), and ramp up speed (how quickly it ramps up the meth per psi of boost), and initial pump pressure. It's all electronic and very reliable.

JCL622

heh very good info, it's a shame you dont see the point of modding the TL, you'd be a BEAST.


soooo i was SUPPOSED to go to the shop today, but ended up getting called to the lab and missed my appointment ~

ussi

iTrader: (1)

like i said i'm not spraying at the moment. i'm not sure abt the nozzle location - according to Snow it is safe to spray before the throttle body directly into the blower which will keep it cool/lubricated. I think i'm going to move the nozzle behind the blower though. I'm using the smallest nozzle it came with and the variable controller gives u control over what boost levels to spray. Marcus (heeltoe) did the install really clean...you can see the motor sitting behind my filter bolted to the frame..

bent09

iTrader: (1)

Clean install! Do you ntice a difference not that you are not using it? Also do you order your meth through snow as well?

bent09

iTrader: (1)

againstallodds has a clean install as well.

http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?i...sc005162eg.jpg

when you move it couldn't you fit the nozzle in the blue silcon hose.

SporkLover

Re-reading what I wrote last night..... you are right.

When I said you shouldnt have to worry about it, I left out the part where I should have said, you shouldnt have to worry unless you have a fairly aggressive tune (lack of better words) that take full advantage of what Meth has to offer.... and also depending on how aggressive you are with your Meth injection (overall ratio to fuel....)

Great points!

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

WHOA, you have the meth plumbed BEFORE the SC?!? not sure if thats a good idea =/

I hate cars

Absolutely spray after the blower. You want it 6" to 1' from the TB. You will never see the full benefits of the meth with it injected pre-blower.

You guys should go over to turbobuick.com in the alcohol/nitrous/propane section. Research has been going on for years and years and many have tried it pre turbo, post turbo, dual nozzles with both pre and post turbo at the same time, water, rubbing alky, methanol, propane, even hydrogen peroxide (you would be very surprised at the power), etc.

In my own research with a big shot of meth at 26psi, 80 degree day, 120-150 degree post intercooler temps, meth dropped my charge temps to below 60 degrees.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

Would there be any issues installing it were the navy blue silicon hose in his picture above?

I hate cars

That looks like a good place for it. The nozzle is usually set up to spray opposite the incoming air, sort of like pissing into the wind. I ran mine like that for a long time with no problems. Even though it didn't hurt anything it was always in the back of my mind that silicone was holding the jet in. I eventually had a bung welded on to the metal pipe for a more solid installation but in my application 20psi is considered low boost.

tidus888

wait.. which blue silicon????

tidus888

so... install it after the charger right?

I hate cars

After the blower, 6" to 1' before the throttlebody.

tidus888

.........

how are u suppose to do 6" and 1' after the blower and b4 the throttlebody.....


.... unless i messed up the install... the throttlebody... is BEFORE THE blower!!!!

type-s09

the TB is before the blower...the IAT sensor is on the intake manifold after the blower

bent09

iTrader: (1)

I have heard that before the blower would hurt the blades of the charger.

WRXtranceformed

I don't think it's required to tune for meth, I guess if you didn't do a custom tune it would be similar to running high octane fuel all the time. But, it pretty much negates the purpose of using meth because the whole reason you're using it is to play with the timing and boost in order to make more power.

I hate cars

You're right. I have turbos stuck on the mind...

6" to a foot before the intake manifold. Depending on the kit you use you may have to use some sort of a vacuum break. With the cheaper kits the vacuum in the intake will try and siphon the meth out. My turbo car originally had the TB before the turbo so I had this problem with an older kit.

As for tuning, it's not required but recommended. All that's involved is setting the turn on point which would be 1psi for us. Adjust the overall volume, and adjust how fast it ramps up. It's extremely easy and is done from inside the car.

MINIFVR

You should absolutely tune if you are injecting meth. The car should be tuned after installing anything that affects combustion directly.

againstallodds1

I run the snow performance on my Mustang now and I ran it on the TL also. The best way to run the methanol is
1: Running the extra methanol increases octane wich will burn slower and allows to run more timing. More spark advance, more air and more fuel is more power. Every 1 octane allows you to bump timing up .5*
2: Running methanol without a tune will cause the A/F to be too fat. With a tune you can pull fuel to a decent A/F ratio. When your air to fuel ration is rich your car will make less power.

Now the downfall is that with running the kit and if the pump fails or the reservoir goes empty you are running too much timing that can cause it to detonate. Too much timing and detonation =

So the best thing to do without being able to tune the car is to just run it to cool the IATs down. Most cars computers now are programmed to pull timing when the IAT's get to a certain degree. So running the water meth will cool the intake temps down and prevent timing being pulled.
Its a better idea to run it after the blower cause it will cool the compressed air. Compressed air is HOT air. Then you will need a solenoid to prevent syphoning.
Its not bad to run it before the blower cause it can cool the rotors off in the blower and cool the air down.

I hate cars

Please, explain how you tune the TL's ECM....

As was stated above, the meth in the TL's case is used as a coolant and octane booster. In other words you're injecting much less than if you were using it as a supplimental fuel.

Also, it's been proven the the TL runs a little on the lean side at WOT when modded so a little extra fuel won't hurt.

Again, I suggest getting rid of the so called engine management that came with the blower and use the meth as the additional fuel. There are big benefits to doing this.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

Ok I think I am going to start the install but had one concern from their tech tip.

"Introducing meth before 4-5 psi could result in misfire."

Will setting it at 4 psi benefit me enough to even have the kit?

I hate cars

Is this the Snow kit?

It will benefit you because your 4 psi from a non-intercooled supercharger is probably as hot as my 20psi from the turbo and intercooler.

The misfire they're talking about is drowning the motor with too much meth when you don't have enough airlflow. Basically it goes super rich and misfires. This was typical of the "on or off" kits and a system tuned for high boost with a turbo. If you didn't get into the pedal quick enough, the meth could cause a hesitation or misfire. Not a problem with a progressive kit.

With a progressive kit, the meth flow ramps up with boost. I would set it to turn on at 1psi. To fully take advantage of the meth, you should install a high boost pulley. With a good system, 10psi should be easily attainable assuming the blower is halfway efficient at that level.

Mine turns on at 5psi and I run at least 22psi in daily driver trim and there's no misfire or surging at low boost.`

Meth is even nicer now because it's about the same price as premium gas so there's no additional cost after the installation of the kit.

Again, a good kit will make you a believer but a cheap trouble prone kit will make you hate it. The $500 for Razor's kit is 100% worth it. I've been through the others and it seemed like something was always failing or it was hard to tune. Razors was plug and play and all I've done for 2 years is fill it up.

ussi

iTrader: (1)

Do you have the variable controller? with that you can set it to start at a lower psi then it will ramp up. for example you could set it from 2-6psi, so by the time it hits 4 its running at 50%, and 75% at 5psi etc. Its just an example, but you can set it at a start and stop rate.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

It is the snow kit with the upgrade solenoid.

Thanks I hate cars & ussi I feel much more comfortable.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

Another quick question what if my AFR is 11.2 at WOT?

bent09

iTrader: (1)

The stage one does not come with the variable controller but it interesting. Also I noticed you can do a full throttle switch

I hate cars

The target AF on meth is richer than gasoline. Your target when injecting meth should be slightly richer than normal but very close. I would lean the gasoline out just a little when you start injecting the meth.

I hate cars

This is not the way to do it. No need for a full throttle switch. The only proper way to do it is with a MAP sensor with it triggered by boost. You have to go progressive or you will run into drivability problems.

It makes me mad that vendors offer these kits for street cars. IMO a non progressive system should be marketed toward a budget race car where you're never at partial throttle.

The progressives offer the same full throttle performance but with good drivability. Only downside is the $500 price tag.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

So I should get the stage two kit? Man thqt sucks but atleast it will be done right.

I hate cars

Does the stage two just add a variable controller or is it a whole different kit? I hate to sound negative but I don't think you will ever see the full benefit without a progressive kit. It's important that it turns on at 1psi on our cars and I think the non-progressive would drown it in methanol at 1psi.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

I think the only difference in the stage one and the stage two is the variable timer. I guess I will just sell the stage one because you can't buy the variable timer.

Stage 2
Stage 2 Boost Cooler™


This kit uses manifold boost pressure to determine when and how much fluid to inject. Proportionally injecting according to boost pressure gives the most accurate delivery of water-methanol and allows the most cooling and performance improvement over the widest range. More power and driveability is the result. It can be used on any forced induction engine: carbureted, fuel injected, turbocharged, positive displacement or centrifugal blowers. The most suitable are the centrifugal supercharged and turbocharged engines, as they build boost is a more progressive manner concerning water-methanol injection. The positive displacement blower engines will work, but it might take more work to dial in the delivery. For higher boost applications (over 25psi), the controller can be upgraded to our VC100 unit. Now with Lifetime Warranty - please see details.

I hate cars

If you end up selling and looking for another, I highly suggest you go over to turbobuick.com in the alcohol/nitrous/propane section and look at Razor's kit. There's nothing that compares. It's a little pricey but when you factor in the reliability and tunability, it's totally worth it.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

Will do! Thanks for all of your help getting this project done!

I definately need the reliability with my daily driver. Well it is not really my daily driver (99 Jeep Cherokee) but I still love driving the tl.

Thanks again for your help. Jumping over to the forum now. And just for the record the GN is one of my favorite cars of all time! It was the first SC I ever heard and I was like "was that a plane engine?"

MINIFVR

Haha. Im no tuner by any stretch of the imagination. But I am just saying that in general IF POSSIBLE it is always a good idea to tune a car after altering anything to do with induction. Unfortunately it is not that easy with the Acura TL. Coming from the MINI world it is a very feasible venture indeed.

againstallodds1

Hey Jack, the Grand National is a turbo car, not supercharged.