shayan

iTrader: (1)

Long day at work huh? Hay dont take your anger out on us or me. If you see the same question being asked, than dont respond to it. The person that posted will realize. Plus, I wasnt talking to you

lookinco

You could buy the above turbo kit, but you would still need to figure out a way to tune the ECU. I believe the turbo kit does not include any fuel managment.

No one have tried hooking up with the E-manage ultimate to the TL. Yes I know some people are going to say a piggy back ECU is not as good as a tunable ECU like the Hondata, but piggy back might be our only choice until Hondata comes out with something.

After I get my car up and running, which is god knows when, I will try to hook up with the E-manage and tune.

LOGONZOJLS

ANY ENGINE can be tuned with a turbo with a standalone ECU. I don't need to say anything else. You are getting hung up on the fact that no company yet specifies that they make a piggyback or standalone soley for the new TL. BUT, AEM, Motech, Tech, Haltech all these ECU's are stand alone and can be wired up to the stock harness on the NEW 04+ TL's and will work successfully. lol... Obviously you have never been down this road or you wouldn't be wining the way you are.

Logan

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Yep.....we were looking at a 6 channel unit out at Joe Demaree's place (NDRA/NOPI driver and Acura Master Mechanic) and he said it could be done....with some doing and money...primarily the latter. So yes...this CAN be done.....just hasnt been attempted yet by anybody that I am aware of. So I agree with the OP....this can be done....just because nobody has done it yet doesnt mean it cannot be accomplished....trust me.

ndabunka

Hey guys, I am not whinning. I am just asking that you guys actually READ the thread before posting this repetitive junk and wasting space on worthless posts. Just wondering why we have these daily "Why won't X work" yet nobody seems to have the balls (other than TeamXRSX) to actually DO anything about it. This thread (as well as others) have explained it (out the wazoo) as to why this application is more difficult than other efforts. Sure, you can wire a blender into your car if you want too. Being able to do so doesn't mean that it will make it run any better. Other (more knowledgable than me) have ALREADY tried (and FAILED) to get the piggy-back crap working... It hasn't worked so far. Since a number of you guys are sayign it "no problem" to throw eManage on there, then go ahead... EVENTUALLY you will either (1) Learn the same way others did that it "doesn't work" or (2) Succeed and win the praises of this group. Either way, there will be a result. I say "GO FOR IT" because a home-grown "public-domain" solution is ALWAYS cheaper than a private solution. It will also be MUCH more risky because you CAN blow up your own motor (as nobody pre-programmed safe info into the system before you work with it) but always cheaper (because you don't have to pay someone for their pre-planned expertise).

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

It is my belief that what we see occurring is this. There isnt enough MASS demand for the standalone unit R&D like there is in the Honda brands and Mitsu brands...therefore nobody has invested money because they dont see the MASS returns on the R&D it would take to accomplish the task. Therefore...they are waiting for somebody else to develop one so they can all but eliminate most R&D by reverse engineering off of somebody elses work. This would then allow them the margins they are seeking. This doesnt mean it cant be done profitably....just not at the returns Hondata, AEM, Motec, (enter brand here) are seeking. Once somebody breaks through the barrier....it will only be a matter of time that the others will follow as they reverse engineer off of somebody elses work, make it better, different, whatever to pass any patent infringement...and then they will be off too. I just hope that when the breakthrough does occur...that people remember who got em there and support that company!

Converted

Looks to be Comptech FTW, for the time being...

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

In my case...its a matter of R&D money. I didnt have the extra fundage around right now to accomplish it or I would have already had my guy working on it. Its not a cheap proposition....trust me. But when somebody like I have says it can be done...trust me....it can be done. I just dont have the money to enter into the game right now as I just got done with the S/C....so I was a minimum of a year or so out anyway at a minimum. And rest assured...I dont see anybody developing a public domain solution for this....not gonna happen. If they went through the hassle of R&D....they WILL make a return on the investment...wouldnt make sense not to. I dont think they are looking into it for some type of "fame" or "acknowledgement" on the board. What do you think this place is...a kingdom? EVERYTHING is done for money....from this board to the creation and R&D of a standalone system for our TL's.

chill_dog

I have to agree with ndabunka, it gets old reading the same thing over and over again. Now that we're on page 7, it's perfectly clear where we stand...waiting for an update from TeamXRSX, which I'm sure he'll provide when he has something to say.

shayan

iTrader: (1)

I posted that because they are similar engines, and also to help out TeamXRSX in his quest. not for someone on there period to explod on me .

Just look at it




They look just like a TL's engine

ndabunka

Sorry I hurt your feelings... I guess you didn't like being called a yo-yo? I didn't think ist was that severe. Sure, they look similar then again Honda DOES make the Acura product so it only makes sense that they LOOK the same. How many other people ALSO pointed out that they look similar? That it "should" be easy because the parts are out there for the 7th gen Accord (like that makes ANY difference without a management system). Then again , I also realize that you can't easily "take back" a "poorly thought out post". I've even done it before myself. Point is, without engine management NOTHING ELSE matters. Let's sit back and see what TeamXRSX can come up with and stop the dronning on about the hardware for the 7th gen accords shall we?

Dude, you DO realize I am a guy right? And that is a TOMATO?
There in the context you used it in is spelled Their.
Explod has an e on the end...explode...
No one is going to respect you unless you learn proper grammer/spelling.

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

well in that case grammer should be grammar hahaha im jp but yeah this information has been repeated too many times now ... lets just wait for TeamXRSX

Laxplaya11385

hahahahahah someone just got HOSED!

some people should recheck their posts before trying to correct others.

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

ahaha i didnt mean it in that way ... but he's definitely right ... we should just wait until TeamXRSX has some news for us

aznbo187

iTrader: (1)

I'm still very interested. I don't know if this has been mentioned prior, but where is teamrsx located? If he's local to so.cal/la I might be open to have my car donated as a test car.

dragonlord

I believe he is in Ft Lauderdale.

quentinc25

He is in Jax, FL.

quentinc25

I am guessing that is a V6 Accord? Is that your car or just some pics that your found? Just wandering if we could get some more detailed info on the setup. Nic pics and the motor looks just like the 3.2 TL.

shayan

iTrader: (1)

Who said there wasnt a spell checker on AcuraZine? Looks like we got one here, but he isnt that good

shayan

iTrader: (1)

You know what, I take that back^ I apologize for the comments I made because we are like brothers on here . We both have the same interest in modifying our TL's.So, it is stupid to argue like this. So, putting that aside, hows everything going?

LOGONZOJLS

That is my car. I can see how everyone is saying it looks just like the TL engine, well it basically is. The stock J30A4(03+Accord) engine is 99% identical to the J32A3(04+TL) engine. The only differences that I found were the coolant manifold has one extra fitting on it and the bore of the block is 87mm(AV6) compared to 89mm(TL) The heads, Intake Manifold, Intake runners, Injectors, Fuel rails, fuel system etc…all are Identical. I know this because just last month I built a J35 hybrid that I swapped into my car. That is what you see in the pictures there. I used a J32A3 Block, J32A2 Pistons(CL-s) and 05 J35A5 MDX Connecting Rods and Crankshaft. So what you see there is a J35 Turbo. The turbo kit I am selling will work on the 04+TL’s but you would have to fabricate a different intercooler because of the way the stock bumper is, or if there is an aftermarket bumper that would work, everything should fit fine. I am positive about the turbo manifold fitting. Anyway if you guys want a complete list of my mods you can visit 's homepage and my car is the rotm on the right.

Logan

mmcv6

is the electrical system about the same? I know of 2 accord v6 2004 with the tl comptech supercharger which installed the greddy emanage. But they used a p&p harness. I assume it will work with our cars we just got to hard wire it in which most of us dont want to do. I know they gain power/tq +30 about, its tuned good so its not over rich so the cats will last... also the surging problem is gone with these accord supercharge guys.

ACCURATEin

..so basically the quickest way to get this 'production TL turbo kit' on the market would be to:

1)Purchase your custom setup which is currently for sale in the private sales and trades section for $6,000
2)Mate the custom kit to a J32A3 in the UA6 TL
3)Cary(CJ) stimulates his brainzores in an effort to make this kit work in fine tune with the TL ecu and drive by wire system.
4)Test drive for reliability
5)Mass produce
6)Become an official vendor, market, etc.

LOGONZOJLS

I am not positive about the electrical system, but i would say the similarities are there for the V6 6speed model accord(my car) and the TL because the 6speed does have drive by wire also. Also the "problem" of engine management is further simplified and improved if you use a standalone ECU. There would be no problems tuning the car whatsoever if the car used a standalone.

neef

has anyone tried unichip? they say it will work for any car...or is it not good enough?

I am willing to wire in a standalone for my TL..

this is how much can the motor and tranny can handle..

neef

i meant how much can the motor handle?

lookinco

Which standalone ECU would be a good one to use for the TL?

encrypted03

I've spoken w/ someone who's used the Haltech E6X, but he never got back to me w/ the details

TeamXRSX

wow.....hope everybody got all their frustrations out........

while i know everybody is anxious(thus, am i!!), you must understand that everything needs to be in place and everything needs to be thought of. One thing you dont want to do is rush the process of perfection.

To clear some things up.....a couple people are on the right track in regards to engine management. It's true, most of your main standalone, fully tunable ECU's like AEM EMS, Motec, Haltec......ect, will effectivly handle engine management duties. The ignition timing, fuel, injector sizing, vtec crossover ect. They can all also effectivly use the other significant fully editable features that we need. Like editable parameters for many different types of MAP sensors(i.e. GM 3BAR), OBDII parameters, Lean protection, Open/Closed loop control(huge issue!!) boost cut, nitrous/methonol/alchy/water injection, coolant temp adjustment(via fan control)..ect. They all also all give the ability to moniter all sensors and engine information via a laptop. Set up datalogging of the sensors and even control limp mode parameters. One thing they dont do well, is just about everything else in the car.....things like A/C, and other features that are controled by the stock ECU are not addressed very well. Also, VSA and other features on the TL will be a challenge to work around. These systems are usually involving custom wiring harnesses and a lot of work to use, thus why they are usually reserved for all out race cars and for people that have a whole lot of money.

Again, the engine basics are done very well by these standalones.....it also requires a lot of tuning time because you are basically starting from scratch. This is by no means unusual or even difficult, but very time consuming and expensive. This is why most people that know anything about honda tuning will tell you that the Hondata product is superior and worth the wait. The Hondata units like the k-pro, k-100, s300, s200..use the stock ECU, and allows the end user and tuner the full view of what the engine is doing and allows for all beneficial items to be editable. This allows the ECU to still run the rest of the car flawlessly, the way Honda engineered it. Honda spent countless man hours and millions of dollors in R&D to make that ECU in your car and the engine it was designed to manage. The best thing to run that engine is with the stock ECU, bar none. Unfortunatly, it takes a lot of time to reverse engineer what Honda did. Some of the issues are old tricks that carry over to alot of Honda engines/ecu's, some are new and need to be totally reverse engineered. especially when Honda introduces new technology and newer faster ECU's to run the technology.

The problem with using a piggyback is always going to be the same on a engine that has a speed/density ECU controlling it. You see, this ECU uses a MAP(Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor. It calculates engine load using several factors. Things like engine speed(RPM), manifold pressure and throttle position are used to calculate the engines load. The ECU also takes into account IAT(intake air temperature), ECT(Engine Coolant Temp), atmospheric air pressure and information from it's other various sensors all factor into the ECU's management of the engine. A piggy back is nothing more than the MAP sensor clamp. It clamps the voltage and keeps the ECU from seeing boost. The reason this is in plave is A) throwing a "MAP voltage too high" DTC(Diognostic Trouble Code) which results in a MIL(Malfuction Idicator Lamp) aka, CEL and can lead to failsafe mode(limp mode). and also allowing the adjustment of the injector duty cycle to control AFR's.

I have included the text of some research i did a little while back. This is what sparked a huge enlightenment in the boosted k-series world.

Cybernation Guardian Testing

Over the past several months there has been a lot of speculation of what
the Guardian is and how it works. During the last week, I have done
considerable testing using a Cybernation Stage 1 turboed RSX-S. Below is a
summary of my findings.

Test Car: 2004 Acura RSX-S

- Cybernation Stage I turbo kit (T3/T4 turbo)
- Cybernation's 3.5ohm 550cc injectors
- Cybernation's Guardian E.I. Engine Management
- 3in Downpipe
- 3in Exhaust 10psi of boost

The test car was verified to be working correctly by Cybernation in December 2004.

Testing tools

- Honda scan tool
- standalone PLX wideband oxygen sensor(02S)
- Dynojet from Velocity Trends, Jax Fl. 904.997.9903 (Contact Steve)


Testing procedures

The Honda scan tool is used to read the stock ECU's sensors via the OBDII
port. In this case, it was used to visually see what control the Guardian
piggyback has on the ECU. The scan tool reads all major sensors and ECU
activities including, but not limited to, ignition advance, knock
retard, injector pulse width, both stock O2S,
closed/open loop operation, cam angle, short term fuel trim (s.trim), long
term fuel trim (l.trim), air/fuel command (AFCMD), vehicle speed (VSS),
calculated load value (CLV), intake air temp (IAT), engine coolant temp
(ECT). From the ECU's sensor readings one can figure out what control the
piggyback has on the stock ECU. The scan tool also has datalogging features
which allow the tester to datalog up to 12 seconds at a time.

The PLX wide-band O2S is used to measure air/fuel ratios (AFRs) from the
exhaust; and is a standalone unit. This means it is completely separate from the
front and rear O2 sensors and does not effect the Guardian's operation. The
PLX wide-band can read from 10.0:1(rich) and 18.0:1(lean). A third O2 bung
was installed in the exhaust of the test car just behind the secondary O2S.
The PLX was installed into this O2 bung for testing. (NOTE: This is not a
sniffer O2S. It is installed directly into the exhaust system and is
extremely accurate.) The voltage from the PLX is sent to the control unit
which reads the voltage and converts it to a lambda reading (AFR) which is
displayed on the control unit's digital display.

The RSX was driven by Steve from Velocity Trends

Initial testing results

Street pulls in 3rd gear were used starting at 2000 rpm and taken to around
8000rpm(Guardian retains the stock rev-limiter of 8100). Here are the
results from the first phase of testing. Run number 1 was aborted due to
intercooler coupling coming off of the throttlebody.

Run 2*:
RPM

IGNITION

AFR
2285

24

10.0
2613

19

11.61
2962

20.5

13.09
3795

15

13.68
4737

10.5

13.44
5712

18.5

13.87

*Leanset AFR for Run # 2: 14.26 at 5200rpm
Run #2 aborted early due to very lean AFR's.

Run 3*:
RPM

IGNITION

AFR
2725

17.5

12.72
3598

15.5

13.34
4542

13

13.84
5530

10

14.23
6625

16.5

13.44
7614

12.5

12.90

*Leanest AFR for Run # 3: 14.31 at 5200rpm

Run 4*:
RPM

IGNITION

AFR
2033

16

12.13
2544

16.5

11.49
3325

19

13.36
4263

14.5

12.83
5281

9.5

13.79
6286

17.5

13.26
7281

13

12.67

*Leanest AFR for Run # 4: 13.85 at 5300rpm

Click here for video of street run # 3

Idle

At idle, the S.trim is pegged at -27.3% which is the most fuel the stock ECU
can pull out. At a high idle of 2000rpm, the AFRs are in the 10 - 11s and
s.trim is again pegged at -27.3%.

In closed loop the stock ECU self tunes for the target AFR of 14.7:1. The
area of closed loop operation consists of idle and light throttle loads. This is
where an AFR of 14.7:1 is best for economy and emissions. The ECU tunes on
the fly for this target AFR via it's readings from the primary and secondary
O2S. If the ECU's readings of it's sensors tell it it's running too rich,
the ECU will pull out fuel via the short term fuel trim (s.trim). The long
term fuel trim (l.trim) is the ECU's overall average of the s.trim. The ECU
also uses the Air Fuel Ratio Command (AFCMD) to manage the ECU's closed loop
self tuning. The ECU will switch to open loop once several conditions have
been met. One condition is that the throttle position sensor (TPS) has to be more than
25%. Another condition is that there is sometimes a 2-3 second delay after gearshift
during which the ECU stays in closed loop. At this point, the ECU stops its
self tuning and follows the tables in the ECU's memory. The Guardian, like
the AFC, intercepts and manipulates MAP signals to the ECU to alter the
fueling and ignition.

Conclusion

As you can see, the AFRs are very inconsistent and very lean for a turbo
charged engine. The results shown above are most likely the result from the
Guardian's use of the secondary O2S, which is a narrowband O2S and is not
very accurate, especially as the sensor is heated by the turbo's exhaust
gas.

Ignition timing is too advanced for boost and is somewhat inconsistent. The
Guardian, like the AFC alters fueling by manipulating the MAP sensor
voltage to the stock ECU. It needs to do this to run with larger injectors,
otherwise the car would run far too rich. This causes the ECU to lookup data
from parts of the maps where ignition is more advanced. Overadvanced
ignition puts extra stress on rods and pistons. Compare ignition timing
recorded above with the Guardian to the K-Pro tuning below.

Important Notes

Guardian wiring

Inputs (these wires are tapped):

- B8 ECT
- B17 IAT
- E26 NEP (RPM signal)
- E2 SHO2 (secondary heated O2 sensor)

Outputs and inputs. (these wires are cut):
- A19 Map sensor
- E7 Main relay
- TPS

Power

- E4 SG3 (signal ground )
- E9 IG1 (Ignition power)
- E5 Vcc 3 (+ 5V)


After you turn the key on, the Guardian resets all DTC's (Diagnostic Trouble
Codes) and resets the ECU. This also resets all the OBDII readiness codes
and resets the long term fuel trim to zero. You will not be able to pass a
smog test running the Guardian due to this.

Phase Two

The test car was put on a dynojet chassis dyno and a baseline pull running the
Guardian was made (Blue). After the baseline run with Guardian, the wiring
was returned to stock and a K-Pro ECU was installed in the car (Red). With
no hardware modifications done to the car whatsoever, I began testing and
tuning. The results below show the Guardian's AFRs between 14 and 15:1 as
measured by the dyno's wideband O2S. The PLX wideband showed the similar
AFR's.


The Guardian run was aborted early due to the AFRs in the
15's. ( Note that the RSX was verified as working correctly by Cybernation
December 2004) Notice the much lower AFRs and ignition timing using the K-Pro
that not only helped spool the turbo faster, but made more power. 56 WHP
was gained with tuning. VTEC was lowered to 5300 rpm resulting in an extra
20WHP from 5300 rpm to 6000 rpm.

More upper mid-range power can and will be obtained with more tuning. Only
an hour was spent on the dyno. Using the K-Pro, the 550cc injectors maxed
out (hit 100% duty cycle) at 6800rpms.

Click on the above screenshot to view actual datalog (Hondata K-Manager needed)

We will swap to the RC 650cc 12ohm injectors, install a fuel pressure gauge and
probably a pump as we suspect the stock fuel pump is reaching its limits.
Results will be posted in a few weeks.

Facts:

- The K-Pro tune made more power than the Guardian
- Ignition timing was lower and more consistent with the K-Pro
- Fuelling was richer and more consistent with the K-Pro
- When tuned for 12:1 AFR the 550cc injectors maxed out at 6800rpm

It is my opinion, considering the ignition values and AF ratios, that K-Pro
and K-100 tuned RSX is safer than a Guardian



-TeamXRSX (Cary Jordan)


i tired to upload the actual file, so the links and pics worked, but i can't post attachments. This was hosted online for a long time.

This is Hondata's version with their testing during the same time. This research was done to clear up some common misconceptions on this particular "smart" piggyback. Some of you fellow k series people will remeber this. Most of what is listed here crosses over to all piggyback MAP clamp AFC's(Air Flow Converter).

Thats all for now!

CJ

lookinco

okay, so now we know a tunable ECU like the Hondata is the best, and that you are working with Hondata on a ECU for the TL. Will this ECU be fully tunable with a laptop like the K-pro? Will the ECU work for people with the comptech supercharger as well?

TeamXRSX

i guess i didn't make it very clear, sorry.....there is currently a up and coming reflash for the comptech TL.....nothing else....currently. It will most likely start out as a general reflash. This will always be a little on the conservative side, something general enough with a particular set-up that all engines will run it safely. All engines are different and built with slightly different tolerances, and broke in in different way, hence why some engines will make more power using identical set-ups than others. I have no idea what Hondata has up their sleeves currently. I know what they tell me and thats not much more than you know. There are other behind the scenes stuff taking place as usual, but nothing concrete.

As time goes on and other kits are developed or improved, we will have to come up with different reflashes through Hondata. If there is enough interest, Hondata might be persuaded to work on something we can flash ourselves, like the K-Pro is for the K-series. Who knows.

CJ

TeamXRSX

How did you know my first name? lol

Meek32v6

iTrader: (7)

damn that was alot of info. Nice write up for those just getting into forced induction

ndabunka

Anyone care to wager when the next post will be with someone asking "Why can't we just use a piggyback system or the standard "I don't know much about XYZ but it seems that we should just be able to use eManage from the 7th gen accord, right?....."? My wager is as soon as this particular page goes one screen back. LOL!

Thanks to Team XRSX for more details because now we can all just point these yo-yo's back to post #189!

Laxplaya11385

so i was talking to a friend w/ regards to intercooler placement. Would we be able to put intercooler where the S4 has them?

This is my friend's S4 (he's currently putting bigger heads on).




EDIT: holy shit... didn't realize the pic was so big. Sorry guy!

shayan

iTrader: (1)

Any updates, hopefully good ones

LOGONZOJLS

Thats weird..... looks like the e-manage is pretty much a plug and play with the TL just like it is with the accord.... mmm... 4 extra wires to connect....

lookinco

Boomslang is coming out with a plug and play harness for the 06 TL ecu as well.

LOGONZOJLS

Sweet, good for you guys. I'm glad the e-manage will be an option for you. I also hope the hondata works out to that would be an awesome option to have too.

RaYlO

I'm in depending on the $$$ (6mt)