I hate cars

MrHeeltoe- The cats react with unburned fuel in the exhaust. I think you're thinking in terms of the only heat source being the heat of the exhaust itself. A catalytic convertor will run hotter than the rest of the exhaust because there's a reaction going on inside. When you introduce extra fuel into it like the ULEV cars apparently do at cold start up, temps go way up because of the extra fuel in the exhaust.

While this would be considered a bad tune on most cars, the TL is supposed to do this to light off the convertor faster. I did not know this either but it makes perfect sense.

RYAN97812

iTrader: (2)

Marcus, the extra fuel is there in the tune to increase catalytic convertor temperatures and my point is that the metal cats wont stand up to it and that there are no aftermarket cats avalible right now that will and not just for the TL but for any ULEV certified or higher vehicle. And yes the factory cold start is degrading the pro cats faster. By the design of the procats ( less surface area and lower precious metal content) they are going to degrade faster under the conditions experienced in a ulev vehicle. As far aqs the s/c cars degrading them faster, absolutely. With the generic tune of the acm and the inconsistancy of the fuel pressure regulator crush many of the s/c cars are running extremely rich under boost. Also crushing the regulator is increasing the fuel pressure all of the time and the ecu is constantly adjusting short and long term fuel trims based on o2 sensor feedback. That is keeping the cats safe during normal driving (and the mil light off) but under wot or open loop operation there is no safe garding the convertors by the ecu.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

I hate cars, I know how the cat works, and the cold start and all that. The cold start really isn't intended to increase temps beyond normal operating temp though, is it? The point of cold start is to get the cat to light off faster, not to overheat the damn thing.


Ryan,
When you say the precious metals will degrade faster do you mean the cat will cease to function sooner or the cat will break down? I don't see any reason why these things should be failing catastrophically. How is the Magnaflow cat doing?

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

I just spoke with a collegue of mine on this subject.

ULEV cats are special in that thay are generally larger with a higher concentration of precious metals in the washcoat. For an aftermarket company to produce these cats is perfectly viable. But the market does not currently exist for them, so this is why no current cats will pass certification on ULEV cars.

However, there is no particular reason why an aftermarket cat would break or fail in this manner discussed if running properly. Furthermore, cold start does not put excess stress on a converter that would cause heat to be so high it would cause the failure.

In order for us to know what happened to cause the failure we'd need to see a cat and do some testing. Are there images available of failed converters? I am sure it is pretty safe to say that e-shift did not do a whole lot of testing (dyno testing for power gains not-withstanding) to make sure these cats would hold up on any car, let alone the TL.

Marcus

RYAN97812

iTrader: (2)

YES the cold start on all ulev cars run extremely rich at start up and the reason why the aftermarket cats will fail is cause they have less precious metals in them, the metals are what absorb the heat and oxidize to cause the conversion. The oem cats can withstand these temps cause of the extra metals. The procats upstream cats are failling from being the cats closer to the combustion chamber. The honeycomb substrate is being shrunk in the metal cats because the substrate is bearing the extreme temps and not the precious metals or that there isnt enough precious metals in the metal cats.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Wait, so are you calling failure:

1) Failing to convert gases causing an engine light

or

2) Failing to maintain integrity and breaking apart or melting down

?


The precious metals convert the gases. They don't help the cores resist higher temps involve in light off. Unless you are trying to tell me that the actual chemical reaction that takes place inside the cat actively reduces temps, and therefore having not enough precious metals will result in a higher temperature, independent of vehicle running condition. Is this the case?

We all know cats get hot. The substrate (metal or ceramic) should be able to handle it. And if we are speaking of ultimate meltdown failure there is not that big of a difference between metal and ceramic cores. If the substrate itself is failing, my stance is something is either wrong with the substrate or the fuel mixture (thus causing EXCESS heat).


Marcus

RYAN97812

iTrader: (2)

I have seen both but i believe the majority is integrity.

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

im going to take some pics soon and show you exactly whats going on with them. i discovered this when i was putting back on my stock jpipe with megan test pipe. when we took off the 3rd cat, shards of metal came pouring out it, we were like WTF?

we got a flashlight to take a look at the front cats, at a quick glance everything looked fine. then when i poked at it, the entire inside broke off the walls and was basically resting on the bottom of the cat. now when i WOT, you can actually hear the insides rattling around in there. it almost sounds like an exhaust leak.. very annoying.

initially, mike said he needed my email so he can have arvin meritor send me a warranty card. then i fill it out, send it back to arvin meritor, so they can ship mike the new cats, then send mine so he can reweld the flanges from my broken cats then finally ship back to me. first off, why would i have to deal with the middle man in the first place? hes the one dealing with them directly not me.


then i said what the hell do i do meantime?? take off my cats, put back on my stock cats, then send them over to him and wait god knows how long to get them back. then go through the hassle of changing the cats again?? labor is a b!itch to do especially with the SC

so i told him at the end of the conversation cant i just pay for 2 brand new ones, install them, send him back my old ones and get a refund?

then he said "sure we can do it that way, we'll start making your cats right away and call you back in a week" i said thats fine, JUST AS LONG AS I KNOW SOMETHINGS BEING DONE! he said he'll get right on them, no worries.

ACCURATEin

Yeah post some pics of the inside. I bet it looks like a snake hole.

Thats good Mike is willing to work with you on the procats.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

And how many ULEV OBD2 cars are we talking about? Just TLs?

RYAN97812

iTrader: (2)

ALL ulev vehicles with aftermarket cats not just the metal cat high performance cats but any aftermarket cat that we have installed on ulev vehicles fails quite quickly. Like i said i am a partner in a national exhaust chain. Most fail in a few weeks for effiecency with aftermarket "cheap" cats that are only lev approved. Toyota is the worst for having to use only oem cats.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Well yeah, but this is probably because no aftermarket companies are actually making these sorts of cats anyway. And in nearly all cases the cat is covered by warranty anyway so there is no need for these companies to produce them. Don't forget that these metal cats, while they provide performance, are not legal or certified for these cars.

I really have serious doubts about the precious metal content contributing to the early substrate demise though. Are you sure the cars you tested did not have ancillary issues causing problems?

Marcus

MugenR

I have a question about methanol and catalytic converters. some people say that methanol increases the chances of early catalytic failure.

I asked Snow Performance about this and this was their response.

"A catalytic converter is used to trap hydrocarbons that are left after combustion. Once trapped they are heated and burned off. Methanol is not a hydrocarbon fuel. It is organic based. Methanol burns almost totally clean. Because of this, there is no adverse affect on catalytic converters."

I've been using methanol for over a year and my pro-cats have been fine. *crossing fingers*

can someone clarify this for me?

thanks,
-Andrew

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Methanol Injection WILL prematurely wear cats... so will NOS..

MugenR

ok, well... care to explain?

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Hmmmm....

CH4O / CH3OH

Looks like a Hydrocarbon to me....

MugenR

hmmmm... indeed.

thanks marcus, I'll bring this to their attention and get some more answers

Bearcat94

Well, not technically.

With that alcohol group it is not strictly Hydrogen and Carbon, so methanol (CH3OH) is NOT a hydrocarbon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hydrocarbon

MugenR

oy.... i hated chem

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Ok, but there is a hydrocarbon component, and with the presence of Oxygen there is a suggestion that this compound might burn more readily than a strict hydrocarbon. So the question is, will it harm the cat...With improper fuel mixture, I'd say yes.

Marcus

hollandca12

Ok what now? I guess all those with pro-cats will just keep rolling until the cats fail. Oh well... sounds like we're all on borrowed time.

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

well, if thats the case so be it. i want people to know how they will be treated when and if it happens. as long as your taken care of, thats all that matters.

i spent 1000k+ hard earned cash for just 3 cats i better not get jerked around. ill find out here in a couple of days...

MugenR

I hope e-shift pulls on the top for this one, 1k is a lot of money for these cats, i'd hate to see you, me or anyone else have to dump them.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

If it is a substrate quality issue, as I suspect, then it is not really a problem of design. Quality issues cause inconsistency. That means not everyone would be guaranteed a failure. But one should know it can happen.

Would I let this thread stop me from enjoying the power benefit? No. Would I be surprised if my cats blew out? No. I'd probably just gut those front cats then.

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

being a business man yourself marcus, wouldnt you also like to know how you'll be treated, if they did fail down the line? i think thats the most important thing to know, especially when you fork out a good chunk of change, on something that was supposed to be well made.

if they take care of me right away, like a good company should, then i dont care if they go out yearly. as long as i know im backed, its all good.

im going to call and email today.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Of course. I have not addressed this concern of yours yet, but since you asked...

The number one component to being successful when providing a product is providing service to go along with the product. Help. Advice. Support in case of technical difficulty. Fair handling of claims. Standing behind the products that are sold.

In this day and age, where so many items are produced overseas with, with any luck, only a passing glance at quality in favor of lower cost, it is difficult to know if what you are buying will perform as expected. When a person is buying a product, they are actually buying the expectation of some improvement in their life. When the product lets them down, the issue shifts from the product itself and directly onto the person's well-being. It is for this reason that customer service is the paramount component of a successful business.

Customer service means to me:

Being available for your customers through a variety of means.
Prompt acknowledgment and handling of communications.
Fair evaluation of the situation.
Effective communications with the customer.
Agreed course of actions to resolve issues; and that means 1) Business pays, 2) Customer pays, or 3) Compromise and both pay.


We follow these principles and that is what keeps our customers coming back. Unfortunately, this sort of service is rare. Even I have customer service issues with the majority of my vendors! The sad part is, that gets passed onto my customers. Indeed this is where having my own scrupulously enforced customer service procedures becomes the most important think to keeping me in business.

Marcus

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

well like i said, i had one cat fail, and they defintiely replaced it for me, (i actually think he rebuilt it) because i dropped off the failed cat, and had to wait 2 weeks to come pick up my replacement. He also did the install, i was fairly impressed with their install quality..

I hope he takes care of you... Unfortunately, i think i've been swayed away from buying these again. Everything Ryan said about ULEV/LEV cats and emissions is all true (spent hours researching this the other night) and no matter what, it appears aftermarket cats will always fail on ULEV vehicles, if the cats arent designed for ULEV. Very interestning information in this thread..... keep us posted on the outcome!!

Blusap, what are you gonna run without the rear cat? test pipe or OEM cat? i think you should dyno before and after (if you have the time & money) because if the substrates were bad, you were probably not getting a great a/f mixture and it surely affected either your power and/or gas mileage..

joed40

Please keep us updated. I will be looking at these in the spring.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Do you have any links?

I want to see please.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

just a couple... the power of google...

one particular clip i found interested

...Conventional catalyst materials don't work during the first few minutes of engine operation when temperatures are low, and unburned hydrocarbons are released directly into the atmosphere. Several designs are being considered. Converters that use an electrically heated catalyst (EHC) contain electrical honeycombs or coils that preheat the catalyst to cause quick reactions. Hydrocarbon trap (HTC) systems work by storing those first hydrocarbon emissions until the catalyst is hot and able to react. Successful development of HTC systems involves the thermal and adsorptive (adhering) properties of materials. A third and most promising cold-start device is the close-coupled catalyst (CCC) that uses two catalytic converters in line, with one located next to the exhaust manifold so it heats quickly. Emissions then pass to the second catalyst where more reactions occur, and remaining gases are emitted at levels below the ULEV standard

http://www.bookrags.com/research/cat...converter-woi/

sounds like our CATS are designed to be HTC cats, and since blusap went super hi-flo (with pro-cats) those hydro carbon materials arent being stored and burned up.. they are just... sitting there?

i am not pro on this topic, so its a sheer guess, but i'm quicky learning

They claim the 2008 Honda Accord to use CCC, and those cars are considered ULEV-2
http://www.zercustoms.com/news/2008-...owertrain.html

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

some real interesting shit to learn !!

I hate cars

Being that our cats bolt to the head and we have another cat downstream from the primary cats, I would assume the TL is also a CCC design.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Most likely.. i wonder if you can be HTC & CCC , because from what blusap says is happening (metal deposits) they might be unburned hydrocarbons that were building up, because the substrate on the Pro-Cat was severely deteriorated or malfunctioning..

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

then again, blusap doesnt have a TL, he has a honda accord.. but they are pretty much the same car...

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm, not likely. "unburned hydrocarbons" are expelled out of the tailpipe. They would not manifest themselves this way.

Is the Honda lineup using HTC? I am not inclined to think that it does. Even if it did, these deposits would be sitting on the substrate and then burned up with heat.

No, I am not buying the ULEV status of the car being the culprit here...I have no reason to believe that a simple emission certification would cause a cat to actually break down. When we say "failing" I take that more to mean "failing to clean the exhaust" and resulting in an engine light.

I hate cars

The ULEV cars have to run very rich when cold to light off the cat quicker. Running very rich heats the cat more than if it were running normal or even lean. ULEV cats have to withstand the higher temps that ULEV cars produce. These higher temps can make "normal" cats detriorate and come apart. That simple emission certification totally changes the way the car operates when cold.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Well , from my own experience. my third cat failed on me... apparantly twice... the substrate was "loose" the first time, and it throw a CEL... once i took the cat off the car, and shook it, you can hear the entire substrate banging around (this was after about 4k miles)

Then, Mike @ eshift replaced (or rebuilt it) and i ran it for another 6k miles. All the while, my dynos always stated the car ran very lean .. (>12.0 a/f)

So, after my wreck, i sold the cats, and the recieving member claimed the substrates were loose again. Now, this could have been from either the accident or UPS's wonderful shipping methods...or just the cat failing again.... but i was also a N/A car with just simple bolt-ons..

Ryan mentions something about "precious" metals, which are supposively in the cats, and are to absorb the hydrocarbons.. are these precious metals in the EShift Cat? maybe thats what was depositing, and it was deposting due to a dislodged substrate on the third cat..

remember though, i am just making educated guess. I am in no way a pro on CATS/emissions system. just an educated guy who spends WAAAYYY to much f'ing time researching Acura TL & Honda stuff LOL

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Good note indeed... maybe the deposits werent staying in the substrate, because it was dislodged.. (like in my experience) and they fell to the bottom of the cat, where they didnt heat up properly and were expelled when he took the cat off the car

Hey Blusap, when you removed the cat. Did you shake it lightly? feel the substrate bouncing around in there?

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

BLACKURA_NY, i never took the front two cats off, only the 3rd one. the metal shrapnel that came out of it was not hydocarbons, it was the material that the cats are made out of.

when we took off the jpipe, thats when we found out the two front cats were bad. i noticed by looking up through them, the entire spiral element part of the cat was all the way to the bottom. i could put my finger in there and move it up and down. basically the sides came apart,.so ya, they are rattling around in there.

i called eshift today and talked to wayne. he remembered who i was and talked to him on what was going on with the cats. they are waiting for a shipment from UPS and as soon as they receive them, they are going to weld the flanges on and send them out..sounds good so far..

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

i swapped the entire drivetrain from an 06 TL into my accrod so its basically the same car. only difference is im still using the accord ECU and using ultimate for fuel management, not the ACM.