Comptechtl2367

That is a BIT of an over reaction, not sure how you can know that without looking at the car. It could be as little as a coolant leak from the bottle or hose to the major blow head gasket!
Do you have bubbles coming into the coolant overflow when the car is warmed up at op temp? Or white smoke from the exhaust with a sweet smell?

I hate cars

This is incredibly common because no one monitors knock. Not an over reaction, it happens regularly with the FI guys. Let's see, it's supercharged, there is no monitoring going on, it has tuning issues, and you can smell coolant outside of the car...hmm.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I had the same problem and it ended up being the stock hose clamps were not up to the task of holding pressure when the car got hot. I lost maybe 1-2 oz over the time I was running the blower. The solution is to get screw type hose clamps and tighten them down. The stock hose clamps are tension style and after a few removal and installations they don't hold up as well. Look for blue coolant dried up on the fan shrouds. The TL uses a dual bypass radiator design which is very efficient dropping temps quite a bit from outlet to inlet. I suspected that at higher rpm when the thermostat opened the pressure overwhelmed the hose clamps for a split second before the radiator cap vented. I lost soo little coolant I didn't worry about it. If you blew a head gasket you would be losing a fair amount of coolant and the oil would show the water.

I hate cars

Not always. You can blow a headgasket and notice nothing but lower compression. You can leak water into the oil. You can get water in the combustion chamber. You can get combustion gasses into the water. You can get oil into the combustion chamber. You can have all of these symptoms at the same time or just one or two.

Comptechtl2367

So the propper response should have been look into:
1. Compression check
2. Cylinder leak down test
3. Check for leaks at all rad hoses and coolant lines
4. Coolant in your oil
5. Bubbles in your coolant over flow at op. temps.
Any of these could cause the smell and some may indacate a blown head gasket. Not to call you out I Hate Cars but not everything points to the worse case, you start small and work from there.

I hate cars

I know troubleshooting 101, no need to preach. In this case with all of the previous failures, odds are it's headgasket issues. I never said you should immediately pull the heads and not troubleshoot, I suggested the most likely cause.

If it turns out to be something less, hopefully it will be a wake up call and he will start monitoring knock.

m.t.123

"I hate cars".... I am actually monitoring knock, and the smell isn't coming from the exhaust, it's coming from the engine bay...no white smoke of any kind either, no over heating...no leaks, nothing, just that smell of coolant. I'm not sure why...

m.t.123

comptechtl2367 and hi speed, I just saw your posts about the coolant...I had missed them. Thanks for the input...so, to you hi speed, the screw type hose clamps fixed the problem?

I hate cars

That's awesome You're one of the few or maybe even the only one doing that.

Mine when it was brand new had a very small leak at the small hose that connects the radiator to the reservoir. It was so small I couldn't find it until it got some buildup of old dry antifreeze around it. It's a place to start.

m.t.123

Thanks dawg...for a guy who "hates cars", you sure do know a lot about them ;-)

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Yes the stronger hose clamps solved the problem, but I remember the smell and wondering if I had a hole in the radiator. The top hose seemed to be the one I was having trouble with. Where do you have your aftermarket knock sensor mounted? I need to go this route I'm just concerned about relocating the stock knock sensor to put the aftermarket sensor in it's place. I trust the stock knock algorithim more that a universal knock sensors.

Inaccurate

How are you monitoring knock?

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

That's correct. It'll pull a maximum of 20 degrees of timing from any cylinder producing knock. The only part that I don't like is that the J&S does not have its own crank angle sensor tap. It only knows when to fire a cylinder by when the ECU sends the signal for that particular cylinder. So to get around that, I'm running a knock sensor 'emulator' (read: piezo transducer) connected to the factory harness just as Inaccurate outlined in his thread. That allows the ECU to send the full timing map and leave 100% of the timing retard up to the J&S.

One other thing that I like about the J&S is that it has a headphone jack with volume control to help listen for knock throughout the tuning process.

I hate cars

That's very neat. I'm going to be asking you some questions in about 6 months hopefully. Cylinder by cylinder knock retard is one thing I've always wanted to get into but never had the time or the money. I just threw more octane at it instead. When I was still racing, units like that were pushing $800 so it was cheaper to just turn the meth up.

Juan Antonio

bmeyer:

Why do you think it's a problem the J&S has no cam or crank sensor input?

Also, leave the stock sensor connected to the ECU and just tap into the signal with the Interceptor. The knock input on the J&S is high impedance, so it doesn't diminish the signal to the ECU.

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

The problem is that the ECU can still see knock and and send an already retarded signal to the J&S unit. Essentially rendering the J&S useless (because the spark is already getting retarded). If you leave 100% of the retard up to the J&S, then not ALL cylinders have to pay the penalty for one noisy cylinder and can run at a higher level of timing advance, thus making more power.

If the J&S had its own crank angle sensor tap this step would not be necessary.

Also, the J&S unit is built to use a Bosch-style sensor. Though I'm not sure the reason.

Comptechtl2367

This thread has just gone over my head... This is all for my tuner to figure out!

NSXCessive

I think you misunderstood my post, I'm fully aware of what open & closed loop modes are. In my message I posed a question to "Hi speed" on how would you expect to pull timing in open loop mode? As in you cannot do that.

Like I mentioned before I have an F/IC installed and tuned in another car, I'm fully aware of what it can & cannot do in open & closed loop modes.

Your setup is way beyond the CT-E ACM with F/IC and J&S Safeguard installed. I didn't know you could pull timing with the J&S as well pretty neat


From what I've read here on the boards, the Honda flash was done back in the earlier years of the S/C. Not sure what it does and what parameters were changed in the ECU to ignore or allow knock filter to operate? The best would be a standalone such at the AEM EMS, capable of doing OBD II and not in the form of a piggyback.

Yea Magnus is well know across Southern Ontario he still drag races check his website, chances are your buddy at Altech might know him as well. Either way maybe he would swing you a deal to do the base tune, install, and tuning all at the same time keep us posted come spring time.

Btw I agree GSXR's are the best, I also have an '05 600.


I'd love to do the PCD's as well but emissions laws to strict here need the daily driver to pass I will consider high flows and also will be doing RV6 v3 J-Pipe which deletes the 3rd cat + CT-E catback we'll see what she dynos in spring. Already did a baseline stock dyno so I know what I started with so far. So far the S/C giving me a bit of surging under light & partial throttle but I'm getting use to driving around it for now.

Let us know if it gets rid of most of your or even all of your surging problems? We'll see how the about this post works for me later in the Spring.

So I guess if you intercool the s/c the IAT would be lower, cooler denser air meaning that your power may actually increase running at that lower boost pressure. I've seen some cars intercooled before and after on the dyno, and seems running cooler IAT and lower boost increases power slightly, and you could make the pulley smaller to increase the boost, you would make even more power in theory.

NSXCessive

Mine smells after a long drive its been 2 weeks since the install. I took a look around the engine bay and I can see where coolant was spilled all over the fan shroud area and rad cap. No coolant missing from my bottle still at same level. I'll spray some water down there to clean it up should take care of that issue.

I understand his reaction, check your coolant and oil. See if anything is a miss. Mine smells for the front of the car, don't smell anything from the rear but mine is a fresh install. I also imagine a pin hole leak would smell when hot too from the front engine bay area.

m.t.123

Thanks for the replies fellas...NSXcessive...represent fuh all the gixxer riders!! As for the coolant smell, I omnly get it at the front in the engine bay...Hi speed also had it and said that the screw on clamps solved his issue. I've had my S/C since 2007, never thought to change the clamps. Also, thanks for the input on the AEM stand alone. Gonna talk to my guy at Altech about Magnus.

As for monitoring knock...I think I may have misled some of you...what i meant is that I still have the stock knock sensor set up...thats all...nothing above and beyond that.

Regardless, my TL is in the garage covered and sleeping (beside the '07 GSXR 750)...so all this great info will be put to the test in late april/early may. Fingers crossed!

libert69

iTrader: (7)

The aem FIC can retard timing. It will not retard timing based on a oem/aftermarket knock sensor but you can adjust the ignition map to pull a degree or 2 or more for given boost level and rpm.

NSXCessive

OEM are the best clamps I'd just replace with OEM. I was able to reuse the OEM on mine they looked good no rust or anything and still holding strong. They auto tension the hose whereas the screw clamps would possibly over squeeze cut into the hose and lead to a failure, and or may require adjustment re-tightening over time. Also noticed the Silicone hose CT-E sends with the kit looks like it rubs the blower housing & drive shaft hopefully it holds up over time. Might install some felt in those 2 areas, the previous owner had a piece of felt on the drive shaft but looks like its staring to fall off during install.

As for Knock mine is back where it apparently should be according to Nate@CT running back into the OEM computer, no more CEL as result of having it connected thru the CT-E ACM.

Ah yes my GSX-R is under the cover until spring, but my TL is right beside with winter tires on covered in snow & salt its my daily beater.

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

Do you have Pre-cats? If so, they would create a smell.

Juan Antonio

No, the stock system doesn't render the J&S useless. If it's knocking it means the stock system isn't retarding far enough or fast enough, so the J&S adds additional retard to the cylinders that need it.

But, there's a good chance the J&S will retard before the stock system can respond.

Stock systems have no sensitivity adjustment, so the manufacturer has to set the threshold high enough to avoid false knock. They also limit the amount of retard and the rate of retard. J&S has a sensitivity adjustment, plus it can retard up to 14° with one knock event. Units produced before 04/2008 could retard a max of 6° with one knock event.

Kenne-Bell used to sell our first generation unit to the Syclone/Typhoon market, back in the mid '90's. These trucks had a factory GM knock system.

In '94 I got a call from a Syclone customer in Hawaii, and he said all he did was install the unit and it allowed him to get into the 12's. He said prior to that he was consistently in the low 13's.

I told him it was because the unit retarded only the knocking cylinders, and it took action before the stock system did.

Both the J&S and the stock system were connected to the same sensor, and the J&S did not have a cam or crank reference.

Search the Subaru forum (nasioc) for J&S. They had a factory sensor and were blowing up, unless they added a J&S. Our early units shipped with a GM sensor. Later, we re-calibrated the knock amp and tapped into the factory sensor, which remained connected to the ECU.

Here's a couple threads:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ng#post1115965

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...re#post5481866

NSXCessive

bmeyer, so would you say on a stock engine + CT S/C with their normal ACM setup do you think the surging is caused by knock, or open to closed loop mode operation issues? Wouldn't the stock ECU trigger a CEL for knock sensor after seeing numerous times, that is if there was knock present?

I will definitely look into the J&S to monitor knock as well as possibly doing an F/IC later didn't want to go over board but wanted it to be reliable and not blow my motor. Put on about 500kms of driving right now since s/c'ing & I still have surging and still unsure to its source. We'll see how the J-Pipe and CT-E Exhaust changes things I also want to monitor my AFR so those are the next 3 steps. I'm merely going on what Nate@CT-E says its normal? I keep thinking to myself how is it really normal and how come no one has blown up because of it? Will have to investigate further than the ACM they provide as lots of people are having this surging problem.


Juan, thanks for the info above. I was also wondering how you know the stock ECU isn't responding fast enough on the TL? Wouldn't this need to be graphed out to see if timing is being pulled in time by stock ECU? Your probably right on thinking its not pulling timing quick enough, after all the stock Motor and ECU was not originally designed to handle boost and its trademarks.

I do like how the J&S looks for knock at each cylinder very nifty device something for me to look into later. Lots of praise after doing some research on the device. I really wish AEM or someone made a full standalone. I know the F/IC can program whatever timing pull required under boost, maybe that is the solution for now. J&S would be another safe guard since bmeyer is running the combination effectively safe.

Anyone running high boost tuned with F/IC? If so what kind of power #'s are we talking about?

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

IMHO, the surge is due to 2 issues. One is the closed-loop tuning. The ACM is trying to add fuel, and the stock ECU is trying to subtract that fuel. I've personally read as rich as 9.8:1 AFR on my wideband gauge while running the ACM. WAY TOO RICH. No wonder the stock ECU is completely cutting fuel periodically.

Regarding knock and the ACM... many of us S/C guys have had problems with CEL's related to knock. I've called CT on this issue before and they simply said "The stock ECU is very sensitive to knock and the ACM cannot filter out the knock to an acceptable level.". The knock may be partly contributing to the surging, but it's mostly the fueling issue.

Not trying to be a dick to anyone that posted before, but I'd have VERY little confidence in the exhaust changes solving your issues.

As far as people blowing their engines... they have. Lots of them. I actually started developing a slight ticking noise on the old engine even while running a proper tune on the F/IC as well as water/meth injection.

With the HBP, F/IC, water/meth, J-pipe, PCD's and other misc mods I was able to pull a 347whp on a mustang dyno. I'm hoping to hit 550whp with the new setup though.

@Juan Antonio
Good points. I'm still choosing to run mostly off of the J&S unit for 2 reasons though.

#1. The response time of the J&S seems significantly better than the stock ECU.

#2. When you have one noisy cylinder, the stock ECU will retard timing on all cylinders. The J&S will only retard timing only on those cylinders, leaving the others untouched.

Is there an advantage outside of this that you see to leave the stock sensor connected other than for redundancy?

Juan Antonio

Juan Antonio is what a "pleasure girl" called me when she saw John Anthony on my ID card. Good grief, forty three years ago, The Riviera Club in San Juan, P.R.

End of dream sequence. Wake up, Garth.

Most if not all ECU's will set a CEL code if they detect the knock sensor has been disconnected.

There two basic types of knock sensors. Tuned an untuned. The tuned ones have a large output signal, about 500mv per g. The signal from an untuned Bosch type sensor is only about 20mv per g.

Originally the unit was going to have three knock input channels, labeled K1, K2, and K3. K1 and K2 were for Bosch type, while K3 was to be for a tuned sensor, as used in early GM, Honda, Toyota, etc.

Instead, I opted to use the K3 pin as an output for data logging the knock/retard signal.

Inaccurate

Juan,

In case you might be interested, here is our home-grown thread regarding aftermarket knock monitors. Any input/feedback is always appreciated

Knock Monitor (click here)

Comptechtl2367

So i am re reading this thread to learn about the FIC and what not and i read this post and i am like... what a dumb ass... then i see it was me that wrote it. I need to slow down and read! FMI=Front Mount Intercooler, FIC= Fuel/Ignition Controller...
Any way i think over the winter i am going to order one of these and have my S/C tuned off of this, from everything i have read the piggy back that comes with the CT-E kit is junk anyway.

I hate cars

That's basically it. With the intercooler added, power stays about the same, sometimes you get a small gain. The engine sees less boost so you're less detonation prone. You can then turn the boost up to what it was previously for more power at the same boost level.

My car started life as a non intercooled turbo car. After adding the intercooler I picked up about 20% more power across the board at the same boost level. Power increase was immediately felt as soon as the car went into boost. I was very surprised at this but on a car that runs 28+psi, it was nice to feel a gain at 2-5psi. With a more inefficient supercharger which heats the air more than a comparable turbocharger, the gains should be pretty nice once you bring the boost back up to stock levels. If you choose to intercool and not turn the boost up, the engine will be less detonation prone and more reliable.

I hate cars

Not that it matters but "FM" and "FMIC" are usually used in turbo groups for a front mount intercooler. In fact, I don't think I've said the word intercooler in a long time. I use "front mount" or "stock location" or "interheater" making fun of the Buick's stock engine bay mounted IC.

Juan Antonio

I hate cars:

This post of yours from the turbo thread says a lot:

"Which wide band should I get and where should I set my A/F to be safe?" Give me a break.

You mentioned the Buick GN. You would think the Buick guys would want individual cylinder control, but they seem satisfied with global knock retard.

My first post on a Buick forum from 2003:
http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/bu...on-module.html

Seven years later and not one sold to a Buick guy. May they all go to the crusher.

That reminds me. In the mid '80's, a friend and I were driving and a trash truck went by. The name on the side of the truck was MG disposal. We both cracked up (MG's were kind of like a Miata, only junky). You had to be there.

Juan Antonio

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Hey, if your not in a rush (and can wait a few months) I will more then likely be selling my FIC-6 if your interested. Only installed it back in july '10 so its in mint condition.

Comptechtl2367

That would be awesome! I am not in any huge rush, i would say i am doing the install mid March... well thats when ill at least drive it again. Send me a PM once its out of your car with a price and what not.

I have always had turbo cars boosting 20+ lbs so an intercooler really made a large difference but correct me if i am wrong, an air to air intercooler with a S/C is almost pointless and you dont have the compressor housing heating the air up... I was also thinking would a water to air intercooler help at all? I dont know much about them but i thought i would ask. Its slightly weird to me that the rousch S/C has a built in IC and Comptech does not have one at all.

I hate cars

I think the TR community tends to "over octane" and really play it safe. There's a lot of value in your product but I think it would apply more to the pump gas guys that are trying to set records without the good stuff.

I have no proof but I've long thought that we battle pre-ignition more than detonation. With most of us running 20-25psi "low boost" and 25+ for high boost along with a combustion chamber designed in the '70s I would think there's at least a good percent of pre-ignition issues.

I would be willing to try one when I get my car going but how would it show up during monitoring on a scantool?

Is it possible to throw in the option to pull timing way back during launch? I used to do this myself with the stock setup but it was too harsh and I didn't have the means to make it automatic back then. I don't remember which wire it was now but there was a wire going to the module that if you created an open with a switch, timing went back to around 10 degrees. Spool was pretty much instant. The problem was I had to flip a switch and it was too hard to get to the switch on launch and I was always worried I was going to forget it and destroy the exhaust valves and turbo.

This would be very useful for the 5at turbo TL. The stock ECU will not let the DBW fully open the throttle with the brakes on. In fact, it pulls 13" of vacuum with the throttle to the floor and brakes on. Not sure if you could do a MAP vs throttle position to at least help it build boost from a slow roll until it showed a couple psi.

Inaccurate

^^ It has the following -

"Nitrous Retard: Knob allows up to 20° retard when activated by 12v."

This would be very easy to wire into the oem brake pedal switch to get the 12V. Release brake and the timing returns to normal.

(click here for source)

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

If all goes as planned, I'll have one too.

Juan Antonio

Inaccurate:

Actually, the Interceptor version is the correct application. It also has 12v switched retard, but can also be connected to a 0-5v signal and voila, it's proportional.

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/8ChInt...terceptor.html

I hate cars: Yes, you are correct, the GN guys do not want to see ANY knock retard. They are glad to have it in case stuff happens, but they add methanol or whatever it takes to zero out the dreaded KR.

The wire I think you are talking about to make it retard is the Bypass signal. During cranking and below 500 RPM, I think, timing is ten degrees, until the Bypass signal switches state. I can't remember which way it goes.

I hate cars

That's great news. It would be very good for the TL and I would definitely use it on my GN.

I hate cars

That's the one. It would make the headers glow at idle and you don't even want to see what they look like with a few psi of boost lol.