J35 12:1 heads/cam build, complete
10-10-2013, 11:28 AM
#42
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
those are actually really good and aggressive lines from the right angle and if you have bigger wheels - my RPF's are a square setup which differs from factory and it gives a bit more wheel poke in the front and a bit more aggressive.
10-10-2013, 11:31 AM
#44
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
Are you over on 1addicts? What's your handle?
10-10-2013, 11:57 AM
#45
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
same handle as here, i just haven't posted yet. I've been in research mode because I'm not one of those kids who comes on a forum with a new car saying "HAI I wannuh go fast and stuff what mods can i do? What oil should I use? Should I use premium gas!??!?" Once I know more and have something to say I might start posting there, lol
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10-10-2013, 12:04 PM
#46
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
+1 
10-10-2013, 12:35 PM
#47
All motor
So you ported the PCDs as well? Or did they end up matching the exhaust manifold?
Can you post a video of your car? I wanna hear this beast! And what RPM are you revving to again? (I will look on my phone to see where the dyno stops). I wanna see you rev this bitch to 7500! J series would sound nuts up there
Can you post a video of your car? I wanna hear this beast! And what RPM are you revving to again? (I will look on my phone to see where the dyno stops). I wanna see you rev this bitch to 7500! J series would sound nuts up there
10-10-2013, 07:57 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
yea that was my mistake I read and responded too quick - we typically only talk about port matching the intake side here so I just processed that, lol. That is correct there was nothing done on the exhaust manifold.
10-11-2013, 01:28 PM
#50
Team Owner
damn, have you ever seen pauls (nva-av6)'s builds? Im running his custom dual tb, FULLY built 3.6 and was originally running his M90 SC on a 3.6 fully built motor..
M90 ran 405 wheel 330ish torque.. all together about 10 k motor and all
current all motor set up is 330-340 wheel with hondata tune all together maybe $7500..
not including the exhaust, rdx injectors, fuel pressure regulator and little things that come with building an engine..
not sure where 16k came up, nor am i here to be "that" guy but i am here to not let you give up ..
i LOVE my all motor set up…
between the two, even though S/C was 70-80 more hP, it was just top end…
running my buddy with the M90 i would creep away (from a roll at 30) then at 60-70 i would start pulling hard…
now most only race till 80-100 so whats the use of that extra hP?
Now my all motor…20-30-40 roll i consistently pull from him…low end is there..
response is there, ALL motor has a lot less problems that FI…don't have to wait for boost to kick in, etc.
now comparing the two…I love NA…
I've been through about 7 different set ups, 3 different tunes, 3 different ECUs
M90 ran 405 wheel 330ish torque.. all together about 10 k motor and all
current all motor set up is 330-340 wheel with hondata tune all together maybe $7500..
not including the exhaust, rdx injectors, fuel pressure regulator and little things that come with building an engine..
not sure where 16k came up, nor am i here to be "that" guy but i am here to not let you give up ..
i LOVE my all motor set up…
between the two, even though S/C was 70-80 more hP, it was just top end…
running my buddy with the M90 i would creep away (from a roll at 30) then at 60-70 i would start pulling hard…
now most only race till 80-100 so whats the use of that extra hP?
Now my all motor…20-30-40 roll i consistently pull from him…low end is there..
response is there, ALL motor has a lot less problems that FI…don't have to wait for boost to kick in, etc.
now comparing the two…I love NA…
I've been through about 7 different set ups, 3 different tunes, 3 different ECUs
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IntactACK (10-15-2013)
10-11-2013, 01:32 PM
#51
Team Owner
Glad to hear it man - you can't go wrong with those guys. Mike is an awesome sounding board over there for your ideas. Keep us updated on the build
The most recent dyno i had was from June 8th which is the line that is being compared in the dyno chart I posted above. That was 291/255 i think. Back in February I was at 295/258 or something - I'd give a +/- 5 margin of error on the dyno comparison here because the final line at 317/265 with cams/heads/tune was in August, and it was before my 4" intake. The car made 321 with the 4" intake mocked up, but we hadn't fabbed it yet for install in the car itself.
So, peak gains? Somewhere between 25-30 whp
While I would have liked to see +40 peak gains out of this project, I don't see any reason to pursue it further at this point. I'm pretty happy with how the car drives right now, not looking to get any more power out of it so I doubt I'll look at E85.
The most recent dyno i had was from June 8th which is the line that is being compared in the dyno chart I posted above. That was 291/255 i think. Back in February I was at 295/258 or something - I'd give a +/- 5 margin of error on the dyno comparison here because the final line at 317/265 with cams/heads/tune was in August, and it was before my 4" intake. The car made 321 with the 4" intake mocked up, but we hadn't fabbed it yet for install in the car itself.
So, peak gains? Somewhere between 25-30 whp
While I would have liked to see +40 peak gains out of this project, I don't see any reason to pursue it further at this point. I'm pretty happy with how the car drives right now, not looking to get any more power out of it so I doubt I'll look at E85.
I hope you keep the TL for a long time, I want to hear the kill stories. Have you posted any idle sound clips, I want to hear how the cams sound.
Anyway, good job. It sounds like a solid and better yet, fun setup.
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i_love_cars (10-13-2013)
10-13-2013, 08:49 AM
#53
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
This thread is a pleasant surprise. There's so much thought and research and perseverence here. You ran into some major road blocks and didn't give up. I believe you've paved the way for NA builds. IMO, this is the first NA build that I feel is complete, you left no stone unturned. I feel that a lot of people would have stopped and never figured out why the initial cam grind lost power and make assumptions.
I hope you keep the TL for a long time, I want to hear the kill stories. Have you posted any idle sound clips, I want to hear how the cams sound.
Anyway, good job. It sounds like a solid and better yet, fun setup.
I hope you keep the TL for a long time, I want to hear the kill stories. Have you posted any idle sound clips, I want to hear how the cams sound.
Anyway, good job. It sounds like a solid and better yet, fun setup.
It's also important to note that I waited until I sold one of my rental props that paid out so that I was guaranteed to have the raw cash necessary to fund the project. I'm no expert but I know enough about engine builds that it racks up $$$ quick and almost always goes over budget.
i did take some early vids - these were prior to the cam gears being cut, and prior to final tuning. The idle video is tough because of the fans for the dyno, but perhaps you gave me a good idea for something to do today and I'll go outside and nab an idle video in the driveway with less feedback/interference
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IntactACK (10-15-2013)
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10-15-2013, 06:13 AM
#56
Racer
iTrader: (1)
Awesome job man, I thought I posted here before but you know I've been following your build all us nut jobs have been posting in Gerzands cam thread. I have a huge suprise coming over this winter I am not sure if I want to start a sneak peak thread or what.
Great way to stick through it, to bad it cost you so much for being a pioneer! I to have wanted a BMW for years, loooked at countless m3s that just weren't perfect enough for me to buy and I stumbled across the TL and I'm a faithful man lol. the new 1 and 3 series I almost have bought a few but like someone stated above, something about the curves on the front and rear just don't sit right.
Great way to stick through it, to bad it cost you so much for being a pioneer! I to have wanted a BMW for years, loooked at countless m3s that just weren't perfect enough for me to buy and I stumbled across the TL and I'm a faithful man lol. the new 1 and 3 series I almost have bought a few but like someone stated above, something about the curves on the front and rear just don't sit right.
10-15-2013, 10:57 AM
#59
Team Owner
10-15-2013, 12:04 PM
#60
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Awesome job man, I thought I posted here before but you know I've been following your build all us nut jobs have been posting in Gerzands cam thread. I have a huge suprise coming over this winter I am not sure if I want to start a sneak peak thread or what.
Great way to stick through it, to bad it cost you so much for being a pioneer! I to have wanted a BMW for years, loooked at countless m3s that just weren't perfect enough for me to buy and I stumbled across the TL and I'm a faithful man lol. the new 1 and 3 series I almost have bought a few but like someone stated above, something about the curves on the front and rear just don't sit right.
Great way to stick through it, to bad it cost you so much for being a pioneer! I to have wanted a BMW for years, loooked at countless m3s that just weren't perfect enough for me to buy and I stumbled across the TL and I'm a faithful man lol. the new 1 and 3 series I almost have bought a few but like someone stated above, something about the curves on the front and rear just don't sit right.
M3's are tough - I personally prefer the E46 to the E92, and finding clean E46's without a moonroof (for track purposes of course) is near impossible. I hate the looks of the new 3-series but I still adore the looks of the 135.
10-15-2013, 12:13 PM
#61
Burning Brakes
The last time I played with a b-series was back in 1996-99.I'm sure done K20's as well in my last vehicle before acquiring this TL.
Reason I asked is that at idle, it doesn't seem that aggressive as I'd expect from a stage 3 even at a 12.1 compression. Almost sounds like Bisi's stage 2's.
Reason I asked is that at idle, it doesn't seem that aggressive as I'd expect from a stage 3 even at a 12.1 compression. Almost sounds like Bisi's stage 2's.
10-15-2013, 01:31 PM
#62
Team Owner
I agree it doesn't lope much for a fairly aggressive cam. It sounds like it's idling kind of high which would hide it but I can't tell for sure. It might be that these cams are ground correctly and whatever problem was found initially (LSA or basic timing?) was corrected and you get the best of all worlds.
Any other time I would say the rev limit should be raised slightly to increase gains from the cams and heads but it looks like power levels off before the stock redline. It looks like a nice streetable combo where you might have been able to pull a few extra hp from a bigger cam but the drivability loss probably wouldn't be worth the tradeoff.
Any other time I would say the rev limit should be raised slightly to increase gains from the cams and heads but it looks like power levels off before the stock redline. It looks like a nice streetable combo where you might have been able to pull a few extra hp from a bigger cam but the drivability loss probably wouldn't be worth the tradeoff.
10-15-2013, 07:30 PM
#63
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
I agree it doesn't lope much for a fairly aggressive cam. It sounds like it's idling kind of high which would hide it but I can't tell for sure. It might be that these cams are ground correctly and whatever problem was found initially (LSA or basic timing?) was corrected and you get the best of all worlds.
Any other time I would say the rev limit should be raised slightly to increase gains from the cams and heads but it looks like power levels off before the stock redline. It looks like a nice streetable combo where you might have been able to pull a few extra hp from a bigger cam but the drivability loss probably wouldn't be worth the tradeoff.
Any other time I would say the rev limit should be raised slightly to increase gains from the cams and heads but it looks like power levels off before the stock redline. It looks like a nice streetable combo where you might have been able to pull a few extra hp from a bigger cam but the drivability loss probably wouldn't be worth the tradeoff.
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thisaznboi88 (10-15-2013)
10-15-2013, 10:47 PM
#64
Burning Brakes
Great work ILC! Thank you for sharing this with us! I love seeing all the graphs and some of the numbers you crunched. I am a Mechincal Engineer and this is the info that I like to see in posts
Last but not least thank you for including the $$$ costs of your build. It's not often that you see this but its helpful for people to understand how much money an N/A build takes.
Last but not least thank you for including the $$$ costs of your build. It's not often that you see this but its helpful for people to understand how much money an N/A build takes.
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i_love_cars (10-16-2013)
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i_love_cars (10-16-2013)
10-17-2013, 08:38 PM
#67
Senior Moderator
a 3.6, dual TB's, etc. - yea no doubt that's a whole different level. I have no doubt you can make a good amount more power - I think the limits on the 3.5 are readily apparent given where I ended up with this build. Both my build and Gerzand's older build with his j32a3 heads on a j35 block ended up with similar results. I think it lends some amount of consistency to our results, and supports the notion that you would need more stroke with a 3.6 or 3.7 and some crazy dual TB setup, and preferably with a fully custom cam, in order to make north of 350 whp.
For reference if i didn't need to replace one of my heads, and the cams were not so jacked, this build would have cost about 6k which wouldn't have been nearly as bad.
I agree with you that all motor is fun, but man I gotta say my 135 has all the benefits of turbo with ease of adding more power with just a tune, but it also feels like an NA car - it makes max torque at such a low rpm and holds it. The low-mid range on the car is absurd and puts most NA builds to shame when you consider with a $500 Cobb tune it can put out 350 whp and like 375 wtq on pump gas with no other mods at all.
I love all motor - especially for the sound it produces, but my point is there is a reality today that modern turbo cars make insane torque down low, power is always available just like an NA car, and you can just do more for less money if you want to add power. This translates into better $:hp ratio, and more reliability. I can shift my 135 all day long at 2500 rpm and it moves briskly - you can't produce the torque curve in an NA setup the way modern boost can.
here's the dyno chart I had done on my 135:
For reference if i didn't need to replace one of my heads, and the cams were not so jacked, this build would have cost about 6k which wouldn't have been nearly as bad.
I agree with you that all motor is fun, but man I gotta say my 135 has all the benefits of turbo with ease of adding more power with just a tune, but it also feels like an NA car - it makes max torque at such a low rpm and holds it. The low-mid range on the car is absurd and puts most NA builds to shame when you consider with a $500 Cobb tune it can put out 350 whp and like 375 wtq on pump gas with no other mods at all.
I love all motor - especially for the sound it produces, but my point is there is a reality today that modern turbo cars make insane torque down low, power is always available just like an NA car, and you can just do more for less money if you want to add power. This translates into better $:hp ratio, and more reliability. I can shift my 135 all day long at 2500 rpm and it moves briskly - you can't produce the torque curve in an NA setup the way modern boost can.
here's the dyno chart I had done on my 135:
Some very solid info and research done by you!!!Having said that, I think your largest limiting factor is the J32a3+ heads with the cast manifold. There just isnt a good way to get the exhaust gases to merge and accelerate. I think if you had done this to a set of A2 heads and done a custom set of long tubes you would have seen much more on the gains. I wish i had the time and money to have been able to get my car to king for some of this. I hope that at some point this winter i can get it to them to tune once i get a standalone. We definitely need to meet up some time.
10-17-2013, 08:47 PM
#68
Senior Moderator
that is correct. The idle is at 1k which hides the lope a lot more. The problem is below 1k rpm the car struggles due to the aggressive cam profile, but you already know that. Certainly lopes below 1k but again we're looking for something drivable. Like i said in my original post, and you hint here as well - a larger cam would produce more power but most likely would cost loss of power down low, and with this stage 3, i lost nothing below 3500 rpms.
10-17-2013, 10:40 PM
#69
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Is there any reason you didnt look into larger rollers for the rockers, essentially changing the rocker ratio to allow more lift? That way you wouldnt have had to do as much work with the cams and them being off from each other as much. Ive been playing with the numbers to see what kind of increase to go with so that i dont run into valve/piston clearance issues and should hopefully be getting some this winter to experiment with.
If I'd have known it was going to turn out like this from the start, I may have looked that direction, lol
10-18-2013, 06:59 AM
#70
Senior Moderator
yeah, because when the cams were reground we weren't expecting to run into so many issues with lobe separation, because Webcams had done these regrinds before. Honestly we just rifled through their larger profile regrinds for TLs. The cams were going to be degree'd anyway to make sure everything would line up, and with a set of cams already reground twice, Web wasn't gonna comp us any more. At that point because we had a functional cam and knew the cam gears would fix the problems, it just made more sense to run with that because you can buy brand new cam gears OEM for the TL for like 15 bucks each, and then another 200 to do some custom cuts. At that point why sink additional money, R&D, and possibly custom fab for larger rollers?
If I'd have known it was going to turn out like this from the start, I may have looked that direction, lol
If I'd have known it was going to turn out like this from the start, I may have looked that direction, lol
At some point i need to get a hold of king this winter and get a baseline and then see what swapped rollers will net. Now if only someone would start producing adjustable cam gears for us all.
10-18-2013, 07:26 AM
#71
Burning Brakes
I remember talking to Skunk2 once about cam gears. Since that time, no one was really into building the TL, but they did mention that if I had a group of people sign, they might just open us some aftermarket. Feel like it's just a group of 10-15 on this forum that is willing to get these though.. Probably would be a good market for the Accord guys.
10-18-2013, 03:44 PM
#72
Senior Moderator
I remember talking to Skunk2 once about cam gears. Since that time, no one was really into building the TL, but they did mention that if I had a group of people sign, they might just open us some aftermarket. Feel like it's just a group of 10-15 on this forum that is willing to get these though.. Probably would be a good market for the Accord guys.
10-24-2013, 09:49 AM
#74
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
that's no joke - thankfully with each passing day I drive the car I feel better about it, lol. My HDS just shipped so hopefully following JJH's thread I can solve the 3.7 jerking problems that are still present. Then I just need to pop in my new clutch master cylinder and should be good to go for a while.
alas, it's only money.
alas, it's only money.
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JJH (10-24-2013)
10-24-2013, 02:08 PM
#75
that's no joke - thankfully with each passing day I drive the car I feel better about it, lol. My HDS just shipped so hopefully following JJH's thread I can solve the 3.7 jerking problems that are still present. Then I just need to pop in my new clutch master cylinder and should be good to go for a while.
alas, it's only money.
alas, it's only money.
If you need any help, just give me a call.
As for the clutch master cylinder, I have a DIY for that.
DIY Master Cylinder Install
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i_love_cars (10-24-2013)
10-24-2013, 02:22 PM
#76
Team Owner
that's no joke - thankfully with each passing day I drive the car I feel better about it, lol. My HDS just shipped so hopefully following JJH's thread I can solve the 3.7 jerking problems that are still present. Then I just need to pop in my new clutch master cylinder and should be good to go for a while.
alas, it's only money.
alas, it's only money.
10-24-2013, 02:33 PM
#77
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (3)
The record is 13.18 @ 108 with slips. Custom web cam in a 2004 3.2 6MT that my buddy owned. It now resides in Kentucky, as it was sold in 2011. He was running 275/40/17 BFG G-force something or other on OEM 8.5's....there are so many of those BFG G-force tires.
Last edited by gerzand; 10-24-2013 at 02:36 PM.
10-24-2013, 03:53 PM
#78
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
The good thing is over time you forget about all the money spent as you get to enjoy the car every day. It hardly ever seems worth it at the time but eventually it will seem totally worth it and you'll be ready for the next project. I wished I lived closer, I would love to take a ride in a NA built TL. I bet it could trap 105mph or more.
10-24-2013, 03:54 PM
#79
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
The good thing is over time you forget about all the money spent as you get to enjoy the car every day. It hardly ever seems worth it at the time but eventually it will seem totally worth it and you'll be ready for the next project. I wished I lived closer, I would love to take a ride in a NA built TL. I bet it could trap 105mph or more.