The J32 NA project. Opel and IHateCars please join in!
10-21-2009, 07:51 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
The J32 NA project. Opel and IHateCars please join in!
Opel and IHC, as two of the most knowledgeable members on this forum when it comes to motor work I have a question for you...
Keeping in mind I am not a new "n00b" member to the forum, so this inst a general question. So please go into as deep of detail as you'd like...
What do you think the J32A3 is capable of, keeping it strictly NA (no NOS), but doing all work possible to internals (w/o changing displacement) and by using any parts available?
I'm in midst of a project in which I am guaranteed some numbers by a previous build that was done to a J32A3 TL and I want to see what you guys think before I share the info and get tarred and feathered...
Reason I ask is because IHC seems to know a fair bit about airflow thru our motors and Opel is just an all around bucket of knowledge.
Keeping in mind I am not a new "n00b" member to the forum, so this inst a general question. So please go into as deep of detail as you'd like...
What do you think the J32A3 is capable of, keeping it strictly NA (no NOS), but doing all work possible to internals (w/o changing displacement) and by using any parts available?
I'm in midst of a project in which I am guaranteed some numbers by a previous build that was done to a J32A3 TL and I want to see what you guys think before I share the info and get tarred and feathered...
Reason I ask is because IHC seems to know a fair bit about airflow thru our motors and Opel is just an all around bucket of knowledge.
10-21-2009, 08:57 AM
#2
3.5 crank.
bore out the bottom end to a create a 3.7 (if youre not going boost)
TL-S cams
RL-pistons
------------------------
without chaning displacement
ported and matched heads, runners and throttlebody and tl-s cams
remove the cast manifold and create headers and collector pipes that are the same diameter as your runners.
biiiiiiiig power
bore out the bottom end to a create a 3.7 (if youre not going boost)
TL-S cams
RL-pistons
------------------------
without chaning displacement
ported and matched heads, runners and throttlebody and tl-s cams
remove the cast manifold and create headers and collector pipes that are the same diameter as your runners.
biiiiiiiig power
10-21-2009, 09:22 AM
#7
so youre pretty much limited to what bolt ons produce.
why arent you willing to change displacement?
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10-21-2009, 09:28 AM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Its not that Im not willing, its just that this whole build was presented to me as a top end build only and its a good deal for dollars needed to be spent and includes more than meets the eye than what people usually think PnP only when talking about the J32 and top end mods.
Not to be an ass, but then, well, then can I disregard this part of ur post?
"without chaning displacement
ported and matched heads, runners and throttlebody and tl-s cams
remove the cast manifold and create headers and collector pipes that are the same diameter as your runners."
Not to be an ass, but then, well, then can I disregard this part of ur post?
"without chaning displacement
ported and matched heads, runners and throttlebody and tl-s cams
remove the cast manifold and create headers and collector pipes that are the same diameter as your runners."
10-21-2009, 09:32 AM
#9
Its not that Im not willing, its just that this whole build was presented to me as a top end build only and its a good deal for dollars needed to be spent and includes more than meets the eye because people usually think PnP only when talking about the J32 and top end mods.
Not to be an ass, but then, well, then can I disregard this part of ur post?
"without chaning displacement
ported and matched heads, runners and throttlebody and tl-s cams
remove the cast manifold and create headers and collector pipes that are the same diameter as your runners."
Not to be an ass, but then, well, then can I disregard this part of ur post?
"without chaning displacement
ported and matched heads, runners and throttlebody and tl-s cams
remove the cast manifold and create headers and collector pipes that are the same diameter as your runners."
u can disregard what you want.
but the price to HP ratio of doing that is very poor.
people do those things when displacement is changed because the engine typically needs more air and they already have it apart, "so why not?"
the TL heads are very free flowing; so you wont see much hp (maybe 5-7) by porting them. if youre looking at doing something other than bolt ons without changing compression or displacement then matching the intake manifold and the runners is a start.
10-21-2009, 09:35 AM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
u can disregard what you want.
but the price to HP ratio of doing that is very poor.
people do those things when displacement is changed because the engine typically needs more air and they already have it apart, "so why not?"
the TL heads are very free flowing; so you wont see much hp (maybe 5-7) by porting them. if youre looking at doing something other than bolt ons without changing compression or displacement then matching the intake manifold and the runners is a start.
but the price to HP ratio of doing that is very poor.
people do those things when displacement is changed because the engine typically needs more air and they already have it apart, "so why not?"
the TL heads are very free flowing; so you wont see much hp (maybe 5-7) by porting them. if youre looking at doing something other than bolt ons without changing compression or displacement then matching the intake manifold and the runners is a start.
10-21-2009, 09:35 AM
#11
Its not that Im not willing, its just that this whole build was presented to me as a top end build only and its a good deal for dollars needed to be spent and includes more than meets the eye than what people usually think PnP only when talking about the J32 and top end mods.
Not to be an ass, but then, well, then can I disregard this part of ur post?
"without chaning displacement
ported and matched heads, runners and throttlebody and tl-s cams
remove the cast manifold and create headers and collector pipes that are the same diameter as your runners."
Not to be an ass, but then, well, then can I disregard this part of ur post?
"without chaning displacement
ported and matched heads, runners and throttlebody and tl-s cams
remove the cast manifold and create headers and collector pipes that are the same diameter as your runners."
one thing ive thought of is matching the 2nd generation tl-s heads flow rate to the 3rd gens flow rate.
taking the 3g valves and cams and putting them into the 2nd gen heads.
then bolting it all up to a 3rd gen bottom end.
this would allow you to run headers which create a minimum of 20 hp on the 2g's
10-21-2009, 09:45 AM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
this would yield massive gains, but its nto going to be easy.
one thing ive thought of is matching the 2nd generation tl-s heads flow rate to the 3rd gens flow rate.
taking the 3g valves and cams and putting them into the 2nd gen heads.
then bolting it all up to a 3rd gen bottom end.
this would allow you to run headers which create a minimum of 20 hp on the 2g's
one thing ive thought of is matching the 2nd generation tl-s heads flow rate to the 3rd gens flow rate.
taking the 3g valves and cams and putting them into the 2nd gen heads.
then bolting it all up to a 3rd gen bottom end.
this would allow you to run headers which create a minimum of 20 hp on the 2g's
10-29-2009, 09:33 PM
#17
Team Owner
Sorry I missed this.
NA power is all about rpms (airflow). You're not going to get much if any more torque out of it unless you significantly boost compression ratio. But you make that same torque more often (rpm).
Forget any stock cam including the TL-S cams. You need a custom grind from a company like Comp Cams. Something with a good 265 degrees of duration@.50" and lots of lift.
You'll need stiffer valvesprings to reduce valve float and better (titanium) keepers and retainers.
Larger valves if they will fit in stock heads. You would be surprised how many Chevy valves will fit imports with a little work. My friend is running a standard Chevy (manley) 2.02" intake valve in his 944 turbo, half the price of a Porsche valve. If you're forced to run stock valves, have the back of the intake valve backcut for weight and better flow. Do a 5 angle valve job, anymore and the gains are not worth the money.
Stick with the stock heads and port the heck out of them. They flow very well stock which is why the turbo TLs make so much power at low boost. NA, you still have to pull out all the stops.
Internals....
Forget anything that ever came in an Acura. Go with the standard aftermarket offerings like Eagle, Scat, JE, etc. Get a nice set of forged rods, shoot for something in the 6" or longer range if possible. This will give the piston more dwell time at the top of it's bore. It's like free power. Order it so it accepts a full floating pin. Rods are the first thing to break at higher rpms so it's important to get a good rod.
I have a feeling the stock TL crank is good for anything you can throw at it.
Pistons, JE makes an excellent piston and custom jobs are not too expensive. An alternate route is SRP pistons, owned by JE but a little more affordable. When ordering they will need the desired compression ratio, bore, stroke, rod length, head cc. Get something lightweight with tool steel pins.
I've had great luck with Total Seal gapless rings but I've heard they can flutter at high rpms. Haven't had a problem in my father's GN at 8,500rpm.
When ordering the pistons you'll have to tell them the desired compression. I recommend in the neighborhood of 12 to 12.5 with the large cams. This is pushing the pump gas limit even with the large cams. It may require a mix of race gas.
For the rest of it, think of airflow. The car will have very little bottom end already so go with a good 3" exhaust. Port and polish the intake runners to the max. You may think of ditching the butterflies in the 2 stage setup. Run a 70mm+ throttlebody.
That's all I can think of for now.
NA power is all about rpms (airflow). You're not going to get much if any more torque out of it unless you significantly boost compression ratio. But you make that same torque more often (rpm).
Forget any stock cam including the TL-S cams. You need a custom grind from a company like Comp Cams. Something with a good 265 degrees of duration@.50" and lots of lift.
You'll need stiffer valvesprings to reduce valve float and better (titanium) keepers and retainers.
Larger valves if they will fit in stock heads. You would be surprised how many Chevy valves will fit imports with a little work. My friend is running a standard Chevy (manley) 2.02" intake valve in his 944 turbo, half the price of a Porsche valve. If you're forced to run stock valves, have the back of the intake valve backcut for weight and better flow. Do a 5 angle valve job, anymore and the gains are not worth the money.
Stick with the stock heads and port the heck out of them. They flow very well stock which is why the turbo TLs make so much power at low boost. NA, you still have to pull out all the stops.
Internals....
Forget anything that ever came in an Acura. Go with the standard aftermarket offerings like Eagle, Scat, JE, etc. Get a nice set of forged rods, shoot for something in the 6" or longer range if possible. This will give the piston more dwell time at the top of it's bore. It's like free power. Order it so it accepts a full floating pin. Rods are the first thing to break at higher rpms so it's important to get a good rod.
I have a feeling the stock TL crank is good for anything you can throw at it.
Pistons, JE makes an excellent piston and custom jobs are not too expensive. An alternate route is SRP pistons, owned by JE but a little more affordable. When ordering they will need the desired compression ratio, bore, stroke, rod length, head cc. Get something lightweight with tool steel pins.
I've had great luck with Total Seal gapless rings but I've heard they can flutter at high rpms. Haven't had a problem in my father's GN at 8,500rpm.
When ordering the pistons you'll have to tell them the desired compression. I recommend in the neighborhood of 12 to 12.5 with the large cams. This is pushing the pump gas limit even with the large cams. It may require a mix of race gas.
For the rest of it, think of airflow. The car will have very little bottom end already so go with a good 3" exhaust. Port and polish the intake runners to the max. You may think of ditching the butterflies in the 2 stage setup. Run a 70mm+ throttlebody.
That's all I can think of for now.
The following users liked this post:
DaBubbla (10-03-2013)
10-29-2009, 10:00 PM
#18
10-29-2009, 11:52 PM
#19
Team Owner
You're welcome!
I have to mention that you could do just the rods and low compression pistons and throw a turbo on there. Leave the top end stock. For just a little more money than porting the heads and installing larger cams, you can have a 700hp turbo monster and do so on pump gas with a much more usable power band with tons more torque and power everywhere on the tach and very daily driver friendly. It will be just as tame as a stock TL until you put your foot into it.
If you're doing internals already you may see what they have as far as stroker crankes. An extra 1/2" stroke would take a 3.2L to around a 3.6L or so and cost no extra money since you're doing all the internals anyway. It would help to bring back some of the lost torque.
You'll also be more reliable with a 450hp turbo car than a 450hp NA car.
Not to talk you out of it, it would be neat to see this done but money wise and as a daily driver the turbo route makes more sense.
I don't think I mentioned it before but if you pull out all the stops, you might get 400whp and 220lbs torque NA but it's not going to be very street friendly.
Either way I'll look forward to seeing this in action.
I have to mention that you could do just the rods and low compression pistons and throw a turbo on there. Leave the top end stock. For just a little more money than porting the heads and installing larger cams, you can have a 700hp turbo monster and do so on pump gas with a much more usable power band with tons more torque and power everywhere on the tach and very daily driver friendly. It will be just as tame as a stock TL until you put your foot into it.
If you're doing internals already you may see what they have as far as stroker crankes. An extra 1/2" stroke would take a 3.2L to around a 3.6L or so and cost no extra money since you're doing all the internals anyway. It would help to bring back some of the lost torque.
You'll also be more reliable with a 450hp turbo car than a 450hp NA car.
Not to talk you out of it, it would be neat to see this done but money wise and as a daily driver the turbo route makes more sense.
I don't think I mentioned it before but if you pull out all the stops, you might get 400whp and 220lbs torque NA but it's not going to be very street friendly.
Either way I'll look forward to seeing this in action.
10-30-2009, 07:18 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Thanks for the tips. While I don't quite believe the torque #'s will be that low (with my plans at least) hehe, I do appreciate your constructive input. When my build is done and the numbers come out, full proof will be brought to the table. It wont be like some of the other threads you see around here. If it doesn't turn out as I expected, you'll know it. I'm all about documentation and I'm not out to lie or hide anything....I'm just all about taking my own route regardless of the money involved
Have a good one man
Have a good one man
10-30-2009, 08:41 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Oh, another question for ya IHC. Would there be any case in a build like this in which you think the stock TL injectors would not be adequate, causing leaning out? Ive been considering upgrading injectors.
10-30-2009, 10:28 AM
#22
Before I start laying out the options, an aftermarket transmission is essential when you choose to stay NA (naturally aspirated) or going FI (force induction) route.
The current aftermarket transmissions available:
1. Dr. EVil with LSD ($4000)
2. Less expensive unit (different company) is currently being produced/tested
Custom J30A1 (Accord V6) - turbo application:
Option 1: stock J30A1 block/heads/IM/TB
Option 2: stock J30A1 block/J32A2 heads/J32A2 upper/lower manifold/J32A2 TB.
If I start all over again building the custom block with forged JE (9.0:1) pistons and Crower rods along with custom iron sleeves and new crankshaft I would definitely choose turbo path.
For starters, the low compression and stronger than stock listed internals can withstand up to 20psi or so. The current Comptech supercharger with supplied blower (Eaton/Magnuson model MP62) pretty much maxing out at 10-10.5psi, so it's limited in generating more boost if desired. In order to utilize extra boost, the next upgrade can be MP90 model which CT doesn't sell and can be purchased directly from Eaton/Magnuson distributors. However to fit the unit is the big issue since it's wider than MP62 and it also required to modify inlet/outlet to function properly. With that however in mind, if properly done that unit can spin enough to generate up to 15-16psi. Thus, in my opinion MP90 is out of the question and money required to make it happened (~$2500) can be rather invested in custom turbo application to utilize extra boost.
BTW, choosing the stock AV6 block is less expensive option since all you have to do is to keep your block and order just custom sleeves/pistons/rods and new strong stock crankshaft. I've heard from my installer as well as others Acura/Honda mechanics that Honda produce amazing crankshaft so that's a keeper.
Now back to turbo. Single ball-bearing turbo by Garrett is the way to go with the GT35 model. It produces full boost starting from 2600rpm all the way to redline. All other options are up to the owner and/or the shop who will be doing it.
Now, the famous cylinder heads and manifold questions:
Again the less expensive way is to keep the stock heads, stock manifold (upper/lower) and bore the stock 60mm TB (throttle body) up to 4mm when adding turbo. The J32A2 cam swap going to help some but I wouldn't change VTEC x point just leaving as it is.
The other option which is great is to get J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) heads, lower (injector base) /upper manifold (intake manifold) and J32A2 TB. The gains here are great in mid-range and top-end. Even if you do a J32A2 cam swap into J30A1 heads the gains will still be less since J32A2 have larger intake valves along with larger round shape intake runners/ports, thus the air flow going to be significantly more generating extra power. In addition, stock J32A2 66mm TB can be ported up to 70-71mm getting even more gains.
This option is also perfect for choosing either J32A2 (3.2L) or J35A* (3.5L) blocks
Porting in polishing
IMO, the J30A1 heads/ manifold is not worth it since with the money spent the gains will be minimal. That is also applies to J32A2 heads/manifold since I've seen on cl board people gain very little with money spent.
Gaskets
If using stock heads/manifold just get stock gasket kits. Both FRONT cyl. head gasket kit ($171.48) and REAR cyl. head gasket kit (includes IM too - $83.96) can be purchased at hondaautomotiveparts.com (these prices are based on 2002 AV6). Also, both of those kits include 2 head gaskets that you place on the block and bolt it up both cyl.heads. In addition, I recommend getting new head studs (16) since they tend to stretch with added heat especially when you plan on adding supercharger or turbo (item called BOLT-WASHER (12X163) and priced at $5.38 at the same web site). APR makes great head studs, however not yet available for our cars.
When using J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) heads/manifold you obviosly need those.
Both FRONT J32A2 cyl. head gasket kit ($136.66) and REAR J32A2 cyl. head kit (included IM too - $119.77) can be purchased at acuraautomotiveparts.org (these prices are based on 2003 CL-S auto). Again, both kits include important head gaskets and just in case you need them as a separate item it's priced at $27.30 each (need 2). Also, keep in mind to get new head studs as explained in the above paragraph. The head studs needed are 16 (8 for each head) they called "BOLT-WASHER (12X163)" and the price is $5.91 each on the above mentioned acuraautomotiveparts.org site. Also you would need to purchase 6 new CL-S fuel injectors rated at 270cc vs 250cc on AV6 and CL-S/TL-S TB (throttle body).
Keep in mind your stock ECU controls everything.
Finally the torque from the line would be nothing spectular untill your turbo kicks in .
Advantage:
Custom internals provide best boost potential for turbo (assuming safe Air/Fuel ratio).
Disadvantage:
a. J30A1 pistons have to be modified (valve pockets metal removal) to have clearance for large J32A2 intake valves. This have to be done only if planning to add J32A2 cylinder heads, etc.
Updated valve specs:
J30A1 '98-02 AV6: 34mm/29mm (intake/exhaust)
J32A2 '01-03 TL-S/CL-S: 36mm/30mm
b. Torque is a little less than J32 but not significant as J35.
Summary: If plan to add turbo on stock J30A1 block - custom low CR pistons/rods are a must. If sleeves are in bad condition they have to be replaced.
The rest is simply bolt on. Higly recommend new engine/transmission mounts, gasket kits, new Denso Iridium IK22 plugs, belts.
If planning to swap stock cyl. heads with J32A2, J30A1 pistons have to be modified as mentioned above. You would also need the following J32A2 parts: injector base (lower manifold) including fuel rails, fuel injectors, upper manifold and throttle body, and new head studs.
Final word,
IMO, either keep stock cyl. heads/manifold/tb or get J32A2 short block along with J32A2 upper/lower manifold and throttle body. This would be a better choice since no J30A1 pistons or any modifications needed, therefore it will be a simple swap. However, keep in mind this option is better for supercharger since as mentioned Comptech blower is maxing out the efficiency and would be limited to run at 8.5-9psi with this option and 10-11psi with stock heads. These maximum values of boost are used assuming custom intercooler added with fuel management unit like E-Manage.
Also coming soon :
J32A2/J32A2 swap details (auto) - for detailed 6MT list look somewhere else
J35A4/J32A2 swap concrete details (auto)
The current aftermarket transmissions available:
1. Dr. EVil with LSD ($4000)
2. Less expensive unit (different company) is currently being produced/tested
Custom J30A1 (Accord V6) - turbo application:
Option 1: stock J30A1 block/heads/IM/TB
Option 2: stock J30A1 block/J32A2 heads/J32A2 upper/lower manifold/J32A2 TB.
If I start all over again building the custom block with forged JE (9.0:1) pistons and Crower rods along with custom iron sleeves and new crankshaft I would definitely choose turbo path.
For starters, the low compression and stronger than stock listed internals can withstand up to 20psi or so. The current Comptech supercharger with supplied blower (Eaton/Magnuson model MP62) pretty much maxing out at 10-10.5psi, so it's limited in generating more boost if desired. In order to utilize extra boost, the next upgrade can be MP90 model which CT doesn't sell and can be purchased directly from Eaton/Magnuson distributors. However to fit the unit is the big issue since it's wider than MP62 and it also required to modify inlet/outlet to function properly. With that however in mind, if properly done that unit can spin enough to generate up to 15-16psi. Thus, in my opinion MP90 is out of the question and money required to make it happened (~$2500) can be rather invested in custom turbo application to utilize extra boost.
BTW, choosing the stock AV6 block is less expensive option since all you have to do is to keep your block and order just custom sleeves/pistons/rods and new strong stock crankshaft. I've heard from my installer as well as others Acura/Honda mechanics that Honda produce amazing crankshaft so that's a keeper.
Now back to turbo. Single ball-bearing turbo by Garrett is the way to go with the GT35 model. It produces full boost starting from 2600rpm all the way to redline. All other options are up to the owner and/or the shop who will be doing it.
Now, the famous cylinder heads and manifold questions:
Again the less expensive way is to keep the stock heads, stock manifold (upper/lower) and bore the stock 60mm TB (throttle body) up to 4mm when adding turbo. The J32A2 cam swap going to help some but I wouldn't change VTEC x point just leaving as it is.
The other option which is great is to get J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) heads, lower (injector base) /upper manifold (intake manifold) and J32A2 TB. The gains here are great in mid-range and top-end. Even if you do a J32A2 cam swap into J30A1 heads the gains will still be less since J32A2 have larger intake valves along with larger round shape intake runners/ports, thus the air flow going to be significantly more generating extra power. In addition, stock J32A2 66mm TB can be ported up to 70-71mm getting even more gains.
This option is also perfect for choosing either J32A2 (3.2L) or J35A* (3.5L) blocks
Porting in polishing
IMO, the J30A1 heads/ manifold is not worth it since with the money spent the gains will be minimal. That is also applies to J32A2 heads/manifold since I've seen on cl board people gain very little with money spent.
Gaskets
If using stock heads/manifold just get stock gasket kits. Both FRONT cyl. head gasket kit ($171.48) and REAR cyl. head gasket kit (includes IM too - $83.96) can be purchased at hondaautomotiveparts.com (these prices are based on 2002 AV6). Also, both of those kits include 2 head gaskets that you place on the block and bolt it up both cyl.heads. In addition, I recommend getting new head studs (16) since they tend to stretch with added heat especially when you plan on adding supercharger or turbo (item called BOLT-WASHER (12X163) and priced at $5.38 at the same web site). APR makes great head studs, however not yet available for our cars.
When using J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) heads/manifold you obviosly need those.
Both FRONT J32A2 cyl. head gasket kit ($136.66) and REAR J32A2 cyl. head kit (included IM too - $119.77) can be purchased at acuraautomotiveparts.org (these prices are based on 2003 CL-S auto). Again, both kits include important head gaskets and just in case you need them as a separate item it's priced at $27.30 each (need 2). Also, keep in mind to get new head studs as explained in the above paragraph. The head studs needed are 16 (8 for each head) they called "BOLT-WASHER (12X163)" and the price is $5.91 each on the above mentioned acuraautomotiveparts.org site. Also you would need to purchase 6 new CL-S fuel injectors rated at 270cc vs 250cc on AV6 and CL-S/TL-S TB (throttle body).
Keep in mind your stock ECU controls everything.
Finally the torque from the line would be nothing spectular untill your turbo kicks in .
Advantage:
Custom internals provide best boost potential for turbo (assuming safe Air/Fuel ratio).
Disadvantage:
a. J30A1 pistons have to be modified (valve pockets metal removal) to have clearance for large J32A2 intake valves. This have to be done only if planning to add J32A2 cylinder heads, etc.
Updated valve specs:
J30A1 '98-02 AV6: 34mm/29mm (intake/exhaust)
J32A2 '01-03 TL-S/CL-S: 36mm/30mm
b. Torque is a little less than J32 but not significant as J35.
Summary: If plan to add turbo on stock J30A1 block - custom low CR pistons/rods are a must. If sleeves are in bad condition they have to be replaced.
The rest is simply bolt on. Higly recommend new engine/transmission mounts, gasket kits, new Denso Iridium IK22 plugs, belts.
If planning to swap stock cyl. heads with J32A2, J30A1 pistons have to be modified as mentioned above. You would also need the following J32A2 parts: injector base (lower manifold) including fuel rails, fuel injectors, upper manifold and throttle body, and new head studs.
Final word,
IMO, either keep stock cyl. heads/manifold/tb or get J32A2 short block along with J32A2 upper/lower manifold and throttle body. This would be a better choice since no J30A1 pistons or any modifications needed, therefore it will be a simple swap. However, keep in mind this option is better for supercharger since as mentioned Comptech blower is maxing out the efficiency and would be limited to run at 8.5-9psi with this option and 10-11psi with stock heads. These maximum values of boost are used assuming custom intercooler added with fuel management unit like E-Manage.
Also coming soon :
J32A2/J32A2 swap details (auto) - for detailed 6MT list look somewhere else
J35A4/J32A2 swap concrete details (auto)
10-30-2009, 10:28 AM
#23
Here are the swap options along with brief advantage(s)/disadvantage(s):
BLOCK/HEADS (incl. manifold (upper/lower), tb)
------------------
J30A1/J30A1
advantage: no modification needed.
disadvantage: no torque until turbo/sc kicks in.
J30A1/J32A2
advantage: mid-range and top-end power
disadvantage: J30A1 pistons have to be modified to fit large J32A2 (intake) valves.
Not much torque until turbo/sc kicks in.
J32A2/J32A2
advantage: no modification needed, mid-range, top-end power.
disadvantage: torque is still ok but better than J30A1
J35A4/J30A1 (Odyssey '02-04/ '00-02 Accord V6)
advantage: no modifications needed, adequate torque, adequate mid-range
disadvantage:needed better cams, large intake valves for overal better powerband, top-end power
Option 1:
If budget is limited the solution is to swap J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) cams into stock J30A1(Accord V6) cyl. heads (see sticky CL-S swap and Cam machining).
Option 2:
Get J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) complete cyl. heads + IM (intake manifold)
But requires different pistons (see J35/J32 below) to clear J32A2 valves.
J35A3/J35A3 (Acura MDX '01-02), J35A4/J35A4 (Honda Odyssey '02-04)
advantage: no modifications needed, great torque, nice mid-range
disadvantage: little less air flow than J32A2 but very close.
This option looks like a good choice if getting the complete engine or even separate short block and cyl. heads/manifold due to a price. And MDX the cyl. heads are the same part # as CL-S, however intake valves and cams are different than CL-S but overall much better than pathetic AV6.
J35A1/J32A2 (Odyssey '01/CL-S '01-03)
advantage: great entire powerband and especially torque.
disadvantage: Need CL-S or RL pistons.
Note: Same options apply as listed below.
J35A3/J32A2 ('01-02 MDX/CL-S '01-03) or J35A4/J32A2 (Odyssey '02-04/CL-S '01-03)
advantage: great entire powerband and especially torque.
disadvantage: Need CL-S or RL pistons.
There are also couple options:
Option 1
With '01-02 complete MDX block or '02-04 Odyssey complete block (crank/rods/pistons) it is required to purchase 2005 Acura RL pistons (new set $50 each) This is a best option still since these pistons have clearance for large 36mm J32A2 (intake) valves thus no modification needed. Despite the fact they have higher 11.0:1 CR still even supercharger can be used here with low boost up to 7psi intercooled (assuming safe AFR). In addition, if 11:1 CR is too high for you, you can use '03 CL-S pistons with 10.5:1 CR.
Option 2
'01-03 J32A2 block (CL-S)
Required to purchase the following:
-= hondaautomotiveparts.com =-
'02-'04 Odyssey (crankshaft)
Product No. 368270 or
Honda part #13310-PGK-A00
'02-'04 Odyssey (connecting rod)
Product No. 368269 or
Honda part #13210-PGK-A00
Main bearings + rod bearings
-= acuraautomotiveparts.org =-
'03 CL-S (pistons) - 10.5:1 CR or
'05 RL (pistons) - 11.0:1 CR
pistons rings (per chosen model)
Note: Odyssey pistons do not have clearance to fit large 36mm J32A2 (intake) valves. Solution - custom job to increase valve pockets.
BTW, The only advantage to get J32A2 block is due to better cylinder sleeves to withstand heat designed for higher redline vehicle, otherwise depending on the price Odyssey or MDX block are the best bet.
Keep in mind, J35A5 '03-04 MDX will not fit on 6th gen. AV6/CL/TL/CL-S/TL-S due to different design, and looks like only for 7th gen. AV6.
Edit: The correct valve dimensions now stand as follows: incl. J30A4/J32A4
J30A1 '98-02 AV6: 34mm/29mm (intake/exhaust)
J30A4 '03+ AV6: 35mm/30mm
J32A1 '01-03' TL/CL: 34mm/30mm
J32A2 '01-03 TL-S/CL-S: 36mm/30mm
J32A4 '04+ TL: 35mm/30mm
J35A1 '99-01 Odyssey: 34mm/29mm
J35A4 '02-04 Odyssey: 35mm/30mm
BLOCK/HEADS (incl. manifold (upper/lower), tb)
------------------
J30A1/J30A1
advantage: no modification needed.
disadvantage: no torque until turbo/sc kicks in.
J30A1/J32A2
advantage: mid-range and top-end power
disadvantage: J30A1 pistons have to be modified to fit large J32A2 (intake) valves.
Not much torque until turbo/sc kicks in.
J32A2/J32A2
advantage: no modification needed, mid-range, top-end power.
disadvantage: torque is still ok but better than J30A1
J35A4/J30A1 (Odyssey '02-04/ '00-02 Accord V6)
advantage: no modifications needed, adequate torque, adequate mid-range
disadvantage:needed better cams, large intake valves for overal better powerband, top-end power
Option 1:
If budget is limited the solution is to swap J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) cams into stock J30A1(Accord V6) cyl. heads (see sticky CL-S swap and Cam machining).
Option 2:
Get J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) complete cyl. heads + IM (intake manifold)
But requires different pistons (see J35/J32 below) to clear J32A2 valves.
J35A3/J35A3 (Acura MDX '01-02), J35A4/J35A4 (Honda Odyssey '02-04)
advantage: no modifications needed, great torque, nice mid-range
disadvantage: little less air flow than J32A2 but very close.
This option looks like a good choice if getting the complete engine or even separate short block and cyl. heads/manifold due to a price. And MDX the cyl. heads are the same part # as CL-S, however intake valves and cams are different than CL-S but overall much better than pathetic AV6.
J35A1/J32A2 (Odyssey '01/CL-S '01-03)
advantage: great entire powerband and especially torque.
disadvantage: Need CL-S or RL pistons.
Note: Same options apply as listed below.
J35A3/J32A2 ('01-02 MDX/CL-S '01-03) or J35A4/J32A2 (Odyssey '02-04/CL-S '01-03)
advantage: great entire powerband and especially torque.
disadvantage: Need CL-S or RL pistons.
There are also couple options:
Option 1
With '01-02 complete MDX block or '02-04 Odyssey complete block (crank/rods/pistons) it is required to purchase 2005 Acura RL pistons (new set $50 each) This is a best option still since these pistons have clearance for large 36mm J32A2 (intake) valves thus no modification needed. Despite the fact they have higher 11.0:1 CR still even supercharger can be used here with low boost up to 7psi intercooled (assuming safe AFR). In addition, if 11:1 CR is too high for you, you can use '03 CL-S pistons with 10.5:1 CR.
Option 2
'01-03 J32A2 block (CL-S)
Required to purchase the following:
-= hondaautomotiveparts.com =-
'02-'04 Odyssey (crankshaft)
Product No. 368270 or
Honda part #13310-PGK-A00
'02-'04 Odyssey (connecting rod)
Product No. 368269 or
Honda part #13210-PGK-A00
Main bearings + rod bearings
-= acuraautomotiveparts.org =-
'03 CL-S (pistons) - 10.5:1 CR or
'05 RL (pistons) - 11.0:1 CR
pistons rings (per chosen model)
Note: Odyssey pistons do not have clearance to fit large 36mm J32A2 (intake) valves. Solution - custom job to increase valve pockets.
BTW, The only advantage to get J32A2 block is due to better cylinder sleeves to withstand heat designed for higher redline vehicle, otherwise depending on the price Odyssey or MDX block are the best bet.
Keep in mind, J35A5 '03-04 MDX will not fit on 6th gen. AV6/CL/TL/CL-S/TL-S due to different design, and looks like only for 7th gen. AV6.
Edit: The correct valve dimensions now stand as follows: incl. J30A4/J32A4
J30A1 '98-02 AV6: 34mm/29mm (intake/exhaust)
J30A4 '03+ AV6: 35mm/30mm
J32A1 '01-03' TL/CL: 34mm/30mm
J32A2 '01-03 TL-S/CL-S: 36mm/30mm
J32A4 '04+ TL: 35mm/30mm
J35A1 '99-01 Odyssey: 34mm/29mm
J35A4 '02-04 Odyssey: 35mm/30mm
10-30-2009, 10:30 AM
#24
all this info brought to you by 02av6 from another forum. (he had a 12 second accord with our engine in it)
the 2g guys have been doing motor strokes and NA builds for years now. all the stuff that ive stated works and its pretty much common knowledge and the cheapest way to make big power.
the 2g guys have been doing motor strokes and NA builds for years now. all the stuff that ive stated works and its pretty much common knowledge and the cheapest way to make big power.
10-30-2009, 12:34 PM
#25
Team Owner
I'll look for the link from the website I use for sizing injectors. You want to run them no more than 80% duty cycle. I've seen guys push stock injectors to 100% (I'm guilty) and they ran fine but can overheat if run like that too long.
10-30-2009, 12:37 PM
#26
Team Owner
Here are the swap options along with brief advantage(s)/disadvantage(s):
BLOCK/HEADS (incl. manifold (upper/lower), tb)
------------------
J30A1/J30A1
advantage: no modification needed.
disadvantage: no torque until turbo/sc kicks in.
J30A1/J32A2
advantage: mid-range and top-end power
disadvantage: J30A1 pistons have to be modified to fit large J32A2 (intake) valves.
Not much torque until turbo/sc kicks in.
J32A2/J32A2
advantage: no modification needed, mid-range, top-end power.
disadvantage: torque is still ok but better than J30A1
J35A4/J30A1 (Odyssey '02-04/ '00-02 Accord V6)
advantage: no modifications needed, adequate torque, adequate mid-range
disadvantage:needed better cams, large intake valves for overal better powerband, top-end power
Option 1:
If budget is limited the solution is to swap J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) cams into stock J30A1(Accord V6) cyl. heads (see sticky CL-S swap and Cam machining).
Option 2:
Get J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) complete cyl. heads + IM (intake manifold)
But requires different pistons (see J35/J32 below) to clear J32A2 valves.
J35A3/J35A3 (Acura MDX '01-02), J35A4/J35A4 (Honda Odyssey '02-04)
advantage: no modifications needed, great torque, nice mid-range
disadvantage: little less air flow than J32A2 but very close.
This option looks like a good choice if getting the complete engine or even separate short block and cyl. heads/manifold due to a price. And MDX the cyl. heads are the same part # as CL-S, however intake valves and cams are different than CL-S but overall much better than pathetic AV6.
J35A1/J32A2 (Odyssey '01/CL-S '01-03)
advantage: great entire powerband and especially torque.
disadvantage: Need CL-S or RL pistons.
Note: Same options apply as listed below.
J35A3/J32A2 ('01-02 MDX/CL-S '01-03) or J35A4/J32A2 (Odyssey '02-04/CL-S '01-03)
advantage: great entire powerband and especially torque.
disadvantage: Need CL-S or RL pistons.
There are also couple options:
Option 1
With '01-02 complete MDX block or '02-04 Odyssey complete block (crank/rods/pistons) it is required to purchase 2005 Acura RL pistons (new set $50 each) This is a best option still since these pistons have clearance for large 36mm J32A2 (intake) valves thus no modification needed. Despite the fact they have higher 11.0:1 CR still even supercharger can be used here with low boost up to 7psi intercooled (assuming safe AFR). In addition, if 11:1 CR is too high for you, you can use '03 CL-S pistons with 10.5:1 CR.
Option 2
'01-03 J32A2 block (CL-S)
Required to purchase the following:
-= hondaautomotiveparts.com =-
'02-'04 Odyssey (crankshaft)
Product No. 368270 or
Honda part #13310-PGK-A00
'02-'04 Odyssey (connecting rod)
Product No. 368269 or
Honda part #13210-PGK-A00
Main bearings + rod bearings
-= acuraautomotiveparts.org =-
'03 CL-S (pistons) - 10.5:1 CR or
'05 RL (pistons) - 11.0:1 CR
pistons rings (per chosen model)
Note: Odyssey pistons do not have clearance to fit large 36mm J32A2 (intake) valves. Solution - custom job to increase valve pockets.
BTW, The only advantage to get J32A2 block is due to better cylinder sleeves to withstand heat designed for higher redline vehicle, otherwise depending on the price Odyssey or MDX block are the best bet.
Keep in mind, J35A5 '03-04 MDX will not fit on 6th gen. AV6/CL/TL/CL-S/TL-S due to different design, and looks like only for 7th gen. AV6.
Edit: The correct valve dimensions now stand as follows: incl. J30A4/J32A4
J30A1 '98-02 AV6: 34mm/29mm (intake/exhaust)
J30A4 '03+ AV6: 35mm/30mm
J32A1 '01-03' TL/CL: 34mm/30mm
J32A2 '01-03 TL-S/CL-S: 36mm/30mm
J32A4 '04+ TL: 35mm/30mm
J35A1 '99-01 Odyssey: 34mm/29mm
J35A4 '02-04 Odyssey: 35mm/30mm
BLOCK/HEADS (incl. manifold (upper/lower), tb)
------------------
J30A1/J30A1
advantage: no modification needed.
disadvantage: no torque until turbo/sc kicks in.
J30A1/J32A2
advantage: mid-range and top-end power
disadvantage: J30A1 pistons have to be modified to fit large J32A2 (intake) valves.
Not much torque until turbo/sc kicks in.
J32A2/J32A2
advantage: no modification needed, mid-range, top-end power.
disadvantage: torque is still ok but better than J30A1
J35A4/J30A1 (Odyssey '02-04/ '00-02 Accord V6)
advantage: no modifications needed, adequate torque, adequate mid-range
disadvantage:needed better cams, large intake valves for overal better powerband, top-end power
Option 1:
If budget is limited the solution is to swap J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) cams into stock J30A1(Accord V6) cyl. heads (see sticky CL-S swap and Cam machining).
Option 2:
Get J32A2 (CL-S/TL-S) complete cyl. heads + IM (intake manifold)
But requires different pistons (see J35/J32 below) to clear J32A2 valves.
J35A3/J35A3 (Acura MDX '01-02), J35A4/J35A4 (Honda Odyssey '02-04)
advantage: no modifications needed, great torque, nice mid-range
disadvantage: little less air flow than J32A2 but very close.
This option looks like a good choice if getting the complete engine or even separate short block and cyl. heads/manifold due to a price. And MDX the cyl. heads are the same part # as CL-S, however intake valves and cams are different than CL-S but overall much better than pathetic AV6.
J35A1/J32A2 (Odyssey '01/CL-S '01-03)
advantage: great entire powerband and especially torque.
disadvantage: Need CL-S or RL pistons.
Note: Same options apply as listed below.
J35A3/J32A2 ('01-02 MDX/CL-S '01-03) or J35A4/J32A2 (Odyssey '02-04/CL-S '01-03)
advantage: great entire powerband and especially torque.
disadvantage: Need CL-S or RL pistons.
There are also couple options:
Option 1
With '01-02 complete MDX block or '02-04 Odyssey complete block (crank/rods/pistons) it is required to purchase 2005 Acura RL pistons (new set $50 each) This is a best option still since these pistons have clearance for large 36mm J32A2 (intake) valves thus no modification needed. Despite the fact they have higher 11.0:1 CR still even supercharger can be used here with low boost up to 7psi intercooled (assuming safe AFR). In addition, if 11:1 CR is too high for you, you can use '03 CL-S pistons with 10.5:1 CR.
Option 2
'01-03 J32A2 block (CL-S)
Required to purchase the following:
-= hondaautomotiveparts.com =-
'02-'04 Odyssey (crankshaft)
Product No. 368270 or
Honda part #13310-PGK-A00
'02-'04 Odyssey (connecting rod)
Product No. 368269 or
Honda part #13210-PGK-A00
Main bearings + rod bearings
-= acuraautomotiveparts.org =-
'03 CL-S (pistons) - 10.5:1 CR or
'05 RL (pistons) - 11.0:1 CR
pistons rings (per chosen model)
Note: Odyssey pistons do not have clearance to fit large 36mm J32A2 (intake) valves. Solution - custom job to increase valve pockets.
BTW, The only advantage to get J32A2 block is due to better cylinder sleeves to withstand heat designed for higher redline vehicle, otherwise depending on the price Odyssey or MDX block are the best bet.
Keep in mind, J35A5 '03-04 MDX will not fit on 6th gen. AV6/CL/TL/CL-S/TL-S due to different design, and looks like only for 7th gen. AV6.
Edit: The correct valve dimensions now stand as follows: incl. J30A4/J32A4
J30A1 '98-02 AV6: 34mm/29mm (intake/exhaust)
J30A4 '03+ AV6: 35mm/30mm
J32A1 '01-03' TL/CL: 34mm/30mm
J32A2 '01-03 TL-S/CL-S: 36mm/30mm
J32A4 '04+ TL: 35mm/30mm
J35A1 '99-01 Odyssey: 34mm/29mm
J35A4 '02-04 Odyssey: 35mm/30mm
10-30-2009, 12:40 PM
#27
Got your mom in
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Carol City, FL
Age: 37
Posts: 2,027
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on
3 Posts
3.5 crank.
bore out the bottom end to a create a 3.7 (if youre not going boost)
TL-S cams
RL-pistons
------------------------
without chaning displacement
ported and matched heads, runners and throttlebody and tl-s cams
remove the cast manifold and create headers and collector pipes that are the same diameter as your runners.
biiiiiiiig power
bore out the bottom end to a create a 3.7 (if youre not going boost)
TL-S cams
RL-pistons
------------------------
without chaning displacement
ported and matched heads, runners and throttlebody and tl-s cams
remove the cast manifold and create headers and collector pipes that are the same diameter as your runners.
biiiiiiiig power
What he^ said....... Also NVA-AV6 can provide valuable input.
10-30-2009, 12:48 PM
#28
Team Owner
10-30-2009, 12:50 PM
#29
Team Owner
10-30-2009, 12:54 PM
#31
Team Owner
this would yield massive gains, but its nto going to be easy.
one thing ive thought of is matching the 2nd generation tl-s heads flow rate to the 3rd gens flow rate.
taking the 3g valves and cams and putting them into the 2nd gen heads.
then bolting it all up to a 3rd gen bottom end.
this would allow you to run headers which create a minimum of 20 hp on the 2g's
one thing ive thought of is matching the 2nd generation tl-s heads flow rate to the 3rd gens flow rate.
taking the 3g valves and cams and putting them into the 2nd gen heads.
then bolting it all up to a 3rd gen bottom end.
this would allow you to run headers which create a minimum of 20 hp on the 2g's
With the larger valves of the 3G, the bowl area may be different too. I don't know because I've never seen them side by side but this is how it usually works.
10-30-2009, 01:04 PM
#32
Team Owner
If that's what you want you may try your luck with ported heads and the entire intake tract ported or extrude honed.
Get a custom grind cam with corresponding springs and retainers.
Do every bolt-on and see what that gets you.
You can go with a thinner headgasket while you have the heads off to bump compression a little.
If you're able to, raise the rev limiter 500rpm to take advantage of the larger cam and ported heads.
Get a custom grind cam with corresponding springs and retainers.
Do every bolt-on and see what that gets you.
You can go with a thinner headgasket while you have the heads off to bump compression a little.
If you're able to, raise the rev limiter 500rpm to take advantage of the larger cam and ported heads.
10-30-2009, 03:46 PM
#34
J36Twingt28r's,nextgt30r
damn!!! i would like to see that automatic!!! anyway im not knocking u down but i don't think u wont be able to reach those number without the things that IHC has said. i mean changin the displacement is everything bro. my friend worldon one finger from v6peformance is running a J33 and experienced a 30hp increase bumping him to 250 whp and about 250wheel torque in a AUTO. goodluck bro with the na project!!! im doing my own na project too!!! yay. 280whp, and 280torque here i come!!!!!
10-30-2009, 05:04 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
I understand where you are coming from and its almost surreal to me as well what he has done. I just always feel more safe getting a second opinion about the specifics involved, no matter hw much I trust a person's advice because im learning everyday.
Moving on tho, I just bought a brand new set of heads to work with, so I can keep the car as much of a DD as possible in between. Really lookin forward to gettin started. Im taking this mod progressively further, step by step, to see the gains from each small piece of the build. Monday the pnp'd mani/runners get put on. I had to order new lower runner gaskets today, (almost forgot) or theyd be on already.
Have a good weekend man
Moving on tho, I just bought a brand new set of heads to work with, so I can keep the car as much of a DD as possible in between. Really lookin forward to gettin started. Im taking this mod progressively further, step by step, to see the gains from each small piece of the build. Monday the pnp'd mani/runners get put on. I had to order new lower runner gaskets today, (almost forgot) or theyd be on already.
Have a good weekend man
10-30-2009, 08:47 PM
#37
J36Twingt28r's,nextgt30r
thanks gerzand ^^^^ i just got some corsport hood spacers and the mdx spacer came today. thanks bro for the hookup, plan on installing the mdx spacer tommorow. if the dyno is open tommorow i might get a comparison dyno, with it on and off.
10-30-2009, 10:28 PM
#39
Team Owner
You can change compression by a piston swap without changing displacement and boring but you can't change displacement unless the piston is of a larger diameter with the corresponding bore size increase.
It has a 3.4" stroke already, when possible I would get the extra displacement from the bore rather than the stroke. The advantages are unshrowding of the valves and stock piston speeds. Piston speeds go up with longer strokes. For example my GN uses a 3.4" stroke with a 4" bore. Very, very good for higher rpm breathing and running large valves. In other words, if you can get similar displacement increases from a bore, do that instead of a longer stroke if you have the choice.
10-30-2009, 11:12 PM
#40
Three Wheelin'
Ok boys...im gonna skip right through this...seems like IHC has covered everything 
Phee, I think you misunderstood what IHC said ^^
There are two ways to increase displacement You can increase bore (with a larger piston), and/or you can increase stroke by moving the crank pin further outwards on the flyweights. As you know, J-engine went 3.5L from 3.2L with a different crank.
Phee, I'm not attacking you
If they're taller from the wrist pin to the top and you run them with stock length rods, and crank, if you don,t end up hitting the heads, you're only bumping up compression. Shaving the top isn't the best thing to do either, it's only going to weaken them more than they already are.
Also,as you know bore is the same on both J32 & J35. Taking this and trying to turn it into a 3.7 isn't going to be a walk in the park. Having another crank made just for this can get expensive. You won't be fitting the crank from the 3.7 4G either. So you're really left with boring out the block. First it has to be re-sleeved, whether that was your intention or not, you just can't bore the stock sleeves because they're thin (aside from the fact that people do it or not). Now re-sleeving will need digging deeper into the ALUMINUM part of the cylinders lol, to accept the bigger sleeves. With all the high reving and big numbers, I think it's safe to say you'll run into problems trying to keep the thinned AL walls intact and cool.
If it ever crosses your mind about trying to use a whole 3.7 block, and somehow modify to fit a tranny.
3.7 block uses Hi-Silicone Aluminum sleeves cast into the block, so goodluck. I'm only saying this because I know us humans can get greedy lol. So even after a 3.7L, we'd prob wanna play with it more.
So just thought I'd share that.
Originally Posted by I hate cars
If the pistons change displacement you have to bore it to accept the larger pistons.
If the pistons change displacement you have to bore it to accept the larger pistons.
There are two ways to increase displacement You can increase bore (with a larger piston), and/or you can increase stroke by moving the crank pin further outwards on the flyweights. As you know, J-engine went 3.5L from 3.2L with a different crank.
If they're taller from the wrist pin to the top and you run them with stock length rods, and crank, if you don,t end up hitting the heads, you're only bumping up compression. Shaving the top isn't the best thing to do either, it's only going to weaken them more than they already are.
Also,as you know bore is the same on both J32 & J35. Taking this and trying to turn it into a 3.7 isn't going to be a walk in the park. Having another crank made just for this can get expensive. You won't be fitting the crank from the 3.7 4G either. So you're really left with boring out the block. First it has to be re-sleeved, whether that was your intention or not, you just can't bore the stock sleeves because they're thin (aside from the fact that people do it or not). Now re-sleeving will need digging deeper into the ALUMINUM part of the cylinders lol, to accept the bigger sleeves. With all the high reving and big numbers, I think it's safe to say you'll run into problems trying to keep the thinned AL walls intact and cool.
If it ever crosses your mind about trying to use a whole 3.7 block, and somehow modify to fit a tranny.
3.7 block uses Hi-Silicone Aluminum sleeves cast into the block, so goodluck. I'm only saying this because I know us humans can get greedy lol. So even after a 3.7L, we'd prob wanna play with it more.
So just thought I'd share that.