SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

might've missed it...but is this beneficial for us NA guys or only turbo/FI?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

http://www.howertonengineering.net/p...ing-Valve.html

(In first post)

I hate cars

Is it a solenoid valve to start/stop the flow? These are only been necessary when putting the nozzle after the throttlebody. Not needed before the throttlebody... if I'm thinking of the right thing.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

No, it's the valve that controls the flow. In other applications, the progressive controller throttles back the pump. This method just turns on the pump and uses this valve to change the rate.

If you are going to put the jet post TB, there are check valves or electric on/off solenoids for that.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ this....

the valve "acts fast" regulating the flow depending on your settings...

i think and KN correct me if am wrong....MS3 runs the pump at a higher pressure and regulated the flow by the valve....better than running the pump at a lower pressure and keeping the valve open....

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Correct. The pump is just on full and the valve is like a fuel injector. The video's in the other thread shows the difference in spray patterns.

With Alky, Snow, AEM, etc, they throttle back the pump and there is no valve except for the one IHC mentions that prevents siphoning if the jet is located after the throttlebody and subjected to a vacuum.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Check out my thread. I posted a video of the FAV vs other progressive style pump.

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

here is the thread
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/project-water-methanol-injection-781606/

I hate cars

So it's basically a PWM solenoid? Hopefully it turns out well. I know there were reliability issues using this style of metering when some companies tried a progressive nitrous kit. Is there any reason some of you guys prefer doing it this way? Anyone know the frequency range this thing operates in?

Oh, and in the link above, in the original post, there was a mistake, it's the water that does the cylinder decarbonization, not the meth.

Inaccurate

Right. I saw this back when it was posted. But, I was too tired to repeatedly post stuff over and over again. Good to have you back IHC to help keep things in-check.

Sometimes, I just ask myself if any harm will come from the misinformation. If there is no harmful effects, I just let the misinformation slide to conserve my energy.

I hate cars

I usually do that. The worst is when I go back and read one of my old posts, think what the hell is wrong with this guy and then realize it's me lol. Some of my posts from when I have migraines are just awful, they look to be written by a 6th grader.

I'm going to have some data on the stopping distances today hopefully, since you're the only one that seems interested, check the thread out later today if you want.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Aquamist uses this method and the MS3 configuration either has "FAST" or Slow with frequency selections. I am not sure what "FAST" means. Did a quick search but turned up nothing at first glance.

One thing I did find is that Aquamist and other companies are using a bypass type pump vs an on demand type. So the durability question I mentioned isn't a problem with this type. I have an email out to Julio to see what his are.

I wished I found that BEFORE I ordered these parts! Oh well, may end up just sticking with the full Alky system.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

here the comparison
aquamist
pps
vs

I hate cars

I hate to be the downer but the first video is the reason I asked for the frequency of the PWM solenoid. If you're NA and not relying on it to keep you out of dangerous knock territory, go for it. If you're turbocharged and require the meth to stop knock, this is not a good idea at all.

You figure at 6,000rpm, each intake valve is opening 50 times a second. There will be moments where no meth makes it in a cylinder with a PWM solenoid. It would have to have much better resolution, 200hz or better.

Keep in mind that the video is done by the manufacturer and there's always a good chance it's biased. Pressure looked to be very low on the progressive pump video. When mine kicks on, it's never below 100psi and fully ramped up it's around 300psi. Atomization is never an issue. I've done this same test with the nozzle unmounted and it's a very fine, powerful spray even at the initial turn-on point. If atomization is a problem, you have a crappy pump or too large of a nozzle. This is also a larger problem with water than straight meth. Meth flashes off extremely quickly and will generally give a finer mist. I have no dog in this fight but I've done a ton of testing since I completely rely on meth to keep my engine together.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ what are you recommendations on this ?

I thought the Aquamist nozzle and pump looked/worked good (in the video).....also the MS3 keep the pump at full pressure....and at 6000rpm the nozzle will be at a 95-100% duty cycle....so how would meth not make it in some cylinders ?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I just spent money for nothing but someone is looking out for me. In order to use this method, you need a bypass style pump. Julio uses on demand so I would need a pump as well. So I'll be sticking with what I have except I am putting a level switch in the tank and I want to connect it to the MS3 to stay out of boost when I run out of methanol. Having read what you said makes me feel more comfortable about it.

BTW, I have a PM to you on a pump question I have that I am hoping you can confirm for me. Thanks!

I hate cars

If it's wide open, you're fine. I'm not sure if it's capable of going static without overheating though. Pulsing it through the intake just isn't a good idea, it's possible to miss an intake stroke here and there. I know it seems like it would all mix together in the intake tract but it can be surprising just how separated pulses can be.

IMO, this is a fix for a poor pump design, not an upgrade over other kits. They only run 150psi (manufacturer rated, who knows if it really does this) and who knows with what nozzle size. It's also easier to make that pressure with water than methanol.

Any kit that costs over $700 should be capable of straight meth. Parts for straight meth are more expensive and it's really surprising this kit must use a mix. It's a good looking kit with some neat electronics but with the other kits out there, this would be one of my last choices. It's adding complexity and more potential failure points when all it needs to do is use better materials and higher pump pressure. I think using the injector PW is a neat idea for a NA TL and I think the kit is fine for a NA TL.

For the turbo TL, you want the alky to be triggered by boost and ramped up with boost. A kit like alkycontrol can protect the engine if things go wrong. Being tied into a 3-bar MAP sensor, it has the potential to ramp up pump pressure to 300psi in the event the boost gets away from you.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

That was one reason I went with Julio, he was the only one who stated outright that his pumps were good with 100% methanol.

It also has a 3-bar GM MAP sensor so I have vacuum/boost lines going to the boost gauge, the MS3 MAP sensor and the Alky MAP sensor.

This officially ends my quest into this arena. I'll probably put my parts up on BM as I won't have any use for them.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ glad you found your answer Now PIX of your units when you get it!!

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

KN, you get the package from http://www.alkycontrol.com/ or from somewhere else?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Yes, that is where I got it from. Julio will work with you on the components depending on where you plan to put your tank and pump.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

gotta need a definitive weight on the
2 gallon tank
pump
hoses
fast acting valve
nozzles....

Inaccurate

The pump is HEAVY .

It weighs 5.1 Lbs (just the pump by itself).

See my thoughts below

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Too funny.

I know you didn't have a 2 gallon tank but if water is approx 8lb's per gallon, that's 16lbs in fluids alone!!!!

BTW, do you all plan to go on a diet personally or are you a skinny ass asian like me and losing weight would mean you have a eating disorder?

Inaccurate

I am a skinny white dude... a rare thing

I am 5'7" at 150 lbs. For the diet people, they better be slim if they want to fit into the racing seat.

Racing seat = mandatory diet (not eating type)

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

yeah so the full setup will be like 20 lbs ??? thats not bad if it can suppress some knocking and run some high CR....

am just trying to see the trade off here.....

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I've been investigating failsafe mechanisms that can be used with the MS3 for those of us who are FI.

I am still going to stick with my Alky based WMI until I can find a bypass pump that isn't just something you can buy at Tractor Supply with a new sticker on it.

I'll be installing a tank level float switch in my methanol tank and will connect it to an LED for visual indication that the tank is empty but also connect it to Pin28 (TableSwitch active GND). Then I can have a 2nd Fuel, Spark and Boost Map where the boost map is all zeros.

I also want to implement a pressure switch on the high pressure side of the pump to detect a pump failure or clog. I am not sure if I can connect them to the same pin in parallel or if I can designate another pin to perform the table switch.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

The AEM kit has a boost safe feature that dumps boost if it sees an issue, the problem is it only lowers boost to whatever level the wastegate spring is set at so 5-8 psi for most of us. My boost solenoid didn't like being attached to both the ms3 and meth kit so I had to disconnect the boost safe function. I do have the led to signal any issues with the system.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

That thought occurred to me, that the boost would be regulated by the spring instead of the controller even if the map says don't do it.

I'll try setting my current boost map to all zero's and I'll let you know what happens.

So if the AEM's failsafe just takes that line to ground, then the tables switch function would occur on that signal.

The one thing I am going to do is use the buffer circuits that are in the manuals to isolate my ECU from any of the external devices.