KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I know there is a current thread on water/meth injection but I thought it would be better to keep it separate since this specifically addresses the use of the Megasquirt III and it's ability to control the injection.

What I have gathered so far is you need a high pressure pump, a fast acting valve and small driver circuit to interface the pump and valve to the ECU along with the hoses and jets/fittings to plumb it up.

The valve can be had here for about $130

http://www.howertonengineering.net/p...ing-Valve.html

A pump for $210

http://www.howertonengineering.net/p...0PSI-Pump.html

The driver circuit looks like this:



And the setup in TunerStudio is found in Advanced Engine2 - Water Injection



When enabled, it gives you options to select which outputs to connect to the pump and the other for the valve. If you aren't using a fast valve, you need to feed it the frequency.

Then you set the entry point criteria and the map which is based on the MAP and RPM.

Seems pretty straightforward.

gwiffer

iTrader: (7)

So, the MS3 does all of the control functions for the water/meth injection? You only need to acquire all of the supplemental parts?

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

nice Aquamist stuff is super legit.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

sub'd

great find KN...

btw can you control only 1 jet or 2 jets if you have to ?

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

btw found the jets here for $28.50 each

http://www.howertonengineering.net/p...andard%29.html

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Not with the MS3 implementation as it stands now. The config only allows for pump on/off and progressive activation of the valve.

But with all the flexibility that this thing has, I bet you could use one of the other injector channels and somehow map it to whatever conditions you want.

The nice thing about this versus other companies is that it is running with the pump at full pressure vs progressively changing the pump pressure to limit the spray. Now this may exploit a weakness in the pump but if you look at the video's, there is no question which spray pattern is superior.

You can get everything from Jeff at Howerton Engineering. He is very quick to reply to emails and I've read many good things about his customer service.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ yeah right now i have spend a fortune on couple other things....i am looking into this maybe in the next few months....

thanks for the contact and will let him know you send me if that helps you in any way

Btw your name is Kurt right ? Am Anil....

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

sub'ed. will read later...

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

WTH! This flew under the radar! here to spend more money!!!

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Nice looked like my experiment open a whole new mode. Sub'ed

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

curious after reading, and the other threads, if we are running single injection what would be the best size for the nozzle? I think .4mm is too mall but would 1.0mm be too large?

I need to go into Tunerstudio to figure out if it can control % of spray, meaning even though we have 1.0mm available it wont just push out as much as possible but a specific threshold amount

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

KN, where did you find the driver circuit info at? trying to understand the mappings and was wonderinf if there was more infromation I could read on it

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/...l.htm#waterinj

Much of this documentation is on earlier versions and it's up to you to apply it to your ECU. I looked at the document then checked out TunerStudio for our application.

I'm going to let Inaccurate or IHC comment on the jet size. My application is much different than yours and I am really just learning myself.

If you look at the first post, all this is doing is using the FAV to regulate the amount of spray. So if you are delivering 1gal per min @ 100% then at 50% you'll be delivering 1/2gal per min. This is set based on the MAP and RPM conditions.

The other condition being set is when to turn the pump on.

You choose which spare pins you want to connect to the pump and FAV circuit based on what is in the pulldown.

The circuit itself is just to isolate the pump and FAV from the MS3 since they will require more current than it is capable of providing.

One of the simpler concepts I have run into with regard to install and understanding how it works. But, application is a whole other story. I am sure you can do a lot of harm by using the more is better theory.

Like I said, I am just learning so if anyone has anything to correct, please do so.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Feji....thats what i was asking when i said can i control 2 nozzles....

i was thinking of running 2 x 0.4mm nozzles and 1 x 0.6mm and depending on my driving style either have the 0.6mm running or the 0.8 (2x0.4) mm spraying....

but i dont think thats gonna happen.....

am planning on running a 0.6mm before cam and head work and a 0.8mm after that head job....

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Use one .5 or a .6mm. Use any larger and your going to lock up the engine or lose power. Unless your boosted. Just use that chart on howerton

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Continuing on since I ran out of time. Get .5,.6,.7mm nozzle if you are n/a an play around. I tired the .6on my accord and the engine lost power. So back to .5mm and I adjust the gains. Just remember the engine can only take in so much water, meth, egr crap, fuel, and finally air on a n/a engine. Boosted engines are better with taking in all the mixture since it is forced in.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ ohh you bet....

so you suggest a 0.4 or a 0.5mm eh....also dude can you list the mods on your car

Inaccurate

To All,

thisaznboi88 is your guro for WMI injection on a n/a TL. The man has first-hand, real-life experience.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I thought you were running it as well. Sorry about that.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

It was a very good coincidence that I started looking at MS3 based WMI about the time you started your work and the fact that it uses the same FAV to regulate. Very helpful for the N/A MS3 guys that may save them some money.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ fuck, i like that haha....

Inaccurate

I had installed about half of it and then changed my mind.

[cough] too much weight for my weight phobia [/cough]

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

I am not. I am still playing with the unit as I go along. lol Its a really fun experience. The 3.2TL share the same injectors as the 3.0 gen7 accord. which is 270cc. The TL-S has larger injectors. I am not sure how much larger off the top of my head. Maybe 310cc?

using this chart http://howertonengineering.com/tech-...ating-jetting/

Here is my math

so 270cc x 6 cyl = 1620 x 15% = 243
= 1620 x 20% = 324

I am only running the .5mm because I can't be sure that I can get 100% methanol to make 50/50, and I don't want to pay 15-20 bucks for 1 gallon of 50/50. I am estimating if I can use the -25 washer fluid, which is ~35% methanol/65 h2o. So I have it set to 10-11% fuel trim.

Make sure you look at the MSDS before you buy the fluid. Some of them contain Ethylene Glycol *same stuff found in coolant*. This will mess with your engine.

http://www.peakauto.com/pdf/msds-pea...hield_wash.pdf

Second reason is that I have it spraying 60-70% of the time when I am accelerating instead of just having it on when I hit WOT. When I am cruising it will not fire unless I give it a lot of gas. This is to prevent quenching of the flame at lower rpm. Thus preventing Bogging and lost of power.

TL-s People need to run minimum .5 and maybe as large as .8mm
I hope my insight helps.

Inaccurate

Lol. You say that you are not THE guru, but then you prove that I am right by posting all of that stuff.

If it looks like a guru and post stuff like a guru, it probably is a guru.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

I'm moddest

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Ken you know your shit bro....

i just cudnt figure out how you got to 0.5mm nozzle....

what would you recommend for someone running RDX (410cc ?) injectors and running 50/50 Meth mix for 3000 rpm + ?

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

410 x 6 = 2460.

2460 x 15% = 369 which is the .8mm nozzle.
if you want to run 20% then
2460 x 20% = 492 which is 1.0mm nozzle.

Are you running boost? cuz if you are then you have to do something with the PSI and use a different area of the chart.

I think i am going to try .6mm again but this time dial down the gain some more and see if that helps.

straight from that howerton page
How to Calculate Jetting

Jetting Calculating jet sizing for Aquamist systems is quite easy as we will walk you through a few simple steps, then some examples. At the bottom of the page you will find some conversion factors if you are using other jets and systems.

For those that have used this chart in the past, it is now shown in compensated form, meaning including pumping losses, as well as showing the new 1.2mm jet.

Example 1

1) First, you will need three pieces of information. Fuel injector size, number of cylinders(hopefully this one comes easy) and peak boost pressure.

2) Take the number of cylinders and multiply by the injector size. For example, let’s use a 4 cylinder with 800cc injectors. This car would have a total of 3200cc of injectors.

There is a general rule of thumb for injection. Three guidelines are below:

For 100% water target 10% – 15% of fuel flow
For 50/50 mix target 15% – 20% of fuel flow
For 100% methanol target 20% – -25% of fuel flow

For this example we will use a 50/50 mix. So find the range of jetting you need by the following:

3) Multiply your total fuel injector number from step 2 by 15% and 20%.

3200cc x 15% = 480cc
3200cc x 20% = 640cc

4) Subtract your peak boost pressure from the system running pressure on the chart and find the appropriate jetting range.
For the example being discussed we want to target 20% which would be 640cc. We also know our peak boost is 30psi. The new Aquatec pumps run at 160psi, the older Shurflo pumps at 125psi. We have a brand new HFS-4 installed in our test car so we use the 160psi starting point.

4) We start at the 160psi line, and subtract our 30psi boost pressure. This means we need to look at a phantom line of 130psi. So we have our 640cc target, we look down the columns and the 130psi line and see 604 is going to fall around…….wait, it’s off the chart. We need to use two jets. So, we split the 640cc in half and see that 320cc falls on the 130 columns right between the .7mm and .8mm jet range. In this instance we will pick two .8mm jet as we can always trim the flow down with the gain function.

Now, the hardest part is finding a spot for two injectors in the intake system.

IMPORTANT NOTE: It is best to test your jetting into a container and measure the flow. Since every build and configuration is different this will be your best measure of the system performance.

Example 2:

6 cylinder, 1000cc injectors, 35psi boost and we will run 100% methanol.

6 x 1000cc = 6000cc.
6000cc x .25 = 1500cc
1500 / 3 = 500cc for each jet.

From the chart we can see we will need 3 jets to get the job done. So we look between the 120psi and 130psi line (160-35 peak boost = 125) and find the 500cc for each jet falls above the 1.0mm jetting. Looking at the chart, 3 x 1.0mm jets will spray 1500cc during spool, then taper with boost rising. In this case the gain function can be used to raise the DC output of the valve relative to the cars fuel injectors. You will also noticed the new 1.2mm jet on the chart(this just became available in limited supply in 2012). We could use two 1.2mm jets and one 1.0mm jet to get hit 1500cc just about right. Mixing jet sizes is acceptable, we usually like to keep the sizes close if possible. The best test to see your actual flow is to measure the flow into a container through the system.

We would be happy to help you out with any jetting or application questions you may have, just contact us.

Conversions from other systems

1 GPH = 63CC/MIN

GPH jets are calculated at 100psi. Since most systems vary the pressure to the jet to vary flow it’s easiest to use a chart to find your actual GPH jetting rate.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ aaah....i did see that but didnt read the part that you have to see the nozzle size by reading the graph at 160psi....

am not running boost and year i think am gonna try the 0.8 mm nozzle....how much gain do you think you got using the WMI ? 10-15hp ? less than that or more than that ? (just curious)

Tim if you want to sell your stuff for cheap let me know

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

not really sure on hp gain maybe 5 hp-10hp tops? But increase in mid-range power for sure. Just waiting for a dyno-day or something.

Its better if you have someone help you while you drive. Since you can adjust the unit on the fly. It will also tell you if you are maxing out the pump on that nozzle, and what not.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Since the only benefit is some octane boost and charge cooling, I wouldn't expect a whole lot of HP gain.

In a boosted application, it is primarily used to help eliminate knock so you can push your timings a bit harder. But if you do that, you should have a failsafe mechanism so if the WMI fails or you run out of fluid, it will stay out of the aggressive tune.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ hmm i understand....what I was trying to think is should i do the WMI now or wait and do it along with my head work....i am thinking of bumping the compression upto 12:1 or 13:1 and run some water meth will help suppress some detonation....

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ the only issue with that is the water/meth can run out because your going to run it almost full-time. Then your pretty screwed.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ well with a 0.8mm or 1.0mm nozzle running at over 3000rpm (is what am thinking) you will prolly run out of WMI if you are running HARD for ~1 hour.....dont think thats gonna happen LOL....

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ hahah yah.. Just make sure you have a large tank. I have 2.5 gallon tank. So I think it should last me 2 fill up at the very least.

I hate cars

I calculate the jet size(s) by figuring out the maximum volume needed along with some headroom and based on the pumps's maximum psi. I like to run the pumps hard because the pattern usually gets better with more pressure. Of course you have to leave some headroom in the pump as well for safety. Calculating flow needed is straight forward.

The best thing I see about this ECU is it might be possible to tie the low meth signal into the ECU and have it shut down the boost and back off timing when it runs out. Maybe it can also ramp up meth if it sees a ton of knock to protect the engine. We've had systems like this for a while that dump all the meth the system is capable of to save an engine. We had one guy lose one of his two fuel pumps which usually means a new engine or headgaskets best case scenario. The meth saved him.

Doing it this way you could have a turbo TL that relied on meth for top end fueling instead of just an octane boost and charge cooling. You'll end up with a frosty intake manifold and boost level will no longer be limited by octane, it will be limited by how much power the bottom end can take.

As embarrassing as it is, I've run out of gas before about a mile from a gas station and I was toggling the meth (which squirts full blast from the switch inside the car) to keep the engine running to the gas station. So there's another plus for meth injection lol.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Summer is just around the corner! First warm day after that crappy ass week of rain and hail...

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ dude am eager to hear your results....

i might hold off on the WMI and do it when i bump my compression ratio up....will help against knocking at higher rpms....

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Just ordered parts. About $200 for the valve, -4an adapters and electronic components.

I hate cars

What's this fast acting valve you guys are talking about?