High flow primary cats
08-29-2010, 10:25 PM
#1
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
High flow primary cats
I thought I remember reading RV6 might be doing these. Is anyone else interested? I need to do something, but don't want the rasp/smell. I'm considering going with the Excelerate/P2R resonated deletes if they're ever released, and then replacing my ATLP race pipe with a high flow cat, but if there were primary high flows available that made good power I could leave the race pipe in place. It would probably be roughly the same price either way.
So....is anyone else in my shoes and interested?
So....is anyone else in my shoes and interested?
08-29-2010, 10:37 PM
#3
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
They shouldn't be that much. Richie sells the high flow third cat for 275. The engineering for the defoulers and the defoulers themselves shouldn't pump up the price by 450.
08-29-2010, 10:45 PM
#4
I also imagine making cat deletes is legal because they are "intended for off road use only" Hi flow cats on the other hand are in a gray area between off road only and street legal.
08-29-2010, 11:42 PM
#6
Former Whiner
Why would you want to spend so much on an item such as HF Primary Cats? When deletes get more power/buck. The whole reason you want to upgrade the primary cats to high flow is to make more power, right?
08-29-2010, 11:48 PM
#7
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
I thought I remember reading RV6 might be doing these. Is anyone else interested? I need to do something, but don't want the rasp/smell. I'm considering going with the Excelerate/P2R resonated deletes if they're ever released, and then replacing my ATLP race pipe with a high flow cat, but if there were primary high flows available that made good power I could leave the race pipe in place. It would probably be roughly the same price either way.
So....is anyone else in my shoes and interested?
So....is anyone else in my shoes and interested?
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08-30-2010, 12:25 AM
#8
Hi flow cats = most of the power of the deletes, no noticeable smell or rasp and somewhat legal emissions wise.
Deletes= stronger exhaust smell that bothers some people, rasp and completely illegal emissions wise. The deletes are too hardcore for most, even on Acurazine. Hi flow cats can offer the nice gains from uncorking a very restrictive exhaust without the stock car smell and sound.
08-30-2010, 12:32 AM
#9
Former Whiner
The rasp isn't as bad as you make it out to be. And the smell, it's the smell of victory. I won't deny the smell is there and you can definitely smell the richness.
Sounds to me you're just making excuses.
Was only giving you my two cents that if you're gonna do it, do it to make a difference. The only reason why you are thinking about changing up from OEM set-up is to make more power right? So why not make the most power? Honestly because you don't want a little rasp and smell of richness? If that's the case; then by all means, spend 3x the price and get less power gained.
I guess I'm missing the point. You want more power than current but without sacrificing OEM status?
Sounds to me you're just making excuses.
Was only giving you my two cents that if you're gonna do it, do it to make a difference. The only reason why you are thinking about changing up from OEM set-up is to make more power right? So why not make the most power? Honestly because you don't want a little rasp and smell of richness? If that's the case; then by all means, spend 3x the price and get less power gained.
I guess I'm missing the point. You want more power than current but without sacrificing OEM status?
Last edited by Souljah; 08-30-2010 at 12:39 AM.
08-30-2010, 12:39 AM
#10
Former Whiner
Hi Speed, very valid post.
I get blind sided by my often narrow vision. Guess to a young kid as myself, rasp and richness doesn't affect me, gf, and friends. I probably shouldn't be sleep deprived before rambling on AZine anymore.
I get blind sided by my often narrow vision. Guess to a young kid as myself, rasp and richness doesn't affect me, gf, and friends. I probably shouldn't be sleep deprived before rambling on AZine anymore.
08-30-2010, 09:51 AM
#13
I'm definitely interested as well in high flow PCDS. Even if they're slightly more expensive than the standard PCDs, for those who don't want the smell / rasp / constant bumper cleaning it probably would work out to be about the same after you bought an aftermarket high flow cat and had it welded into your system.
08-30-2010, 01:06 PM
#16
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
I'm seeing some love here!
So now let's compare the pros and cons of high flow primaries (200 cell?) with a J pipe (any brand) and race pipe in place of the third cat VS resonated primary-cat deletes (IF they even come to fruition), J pipe and RV6 high flow third cat. I'm guessing both configurations will yield roughly the same power and tame the rasp with equal effectiveness. My greatest concern with high flow primary cats being so close to the engine would be failure due to excessive heat. In that regard, I think the resonated primaries and high flow third cat might be the safer option.
And let's keep non resonated primary deletes right out of this discussion for obvious reasons. I would have bought them already if it wasn't for the smell/rasp.
So now let's compare the pros and cons of high flow primaries (200 cell?) with a J pipe (any brand) and race pipe in place of the third cat VS resonated primary-cat deletes (IF they even come to fruition), J pipe and RV6 high flow third cat. I'm guessing both configurations will yield roughly the same power and tame the rasp with equal effectiveness. My greatest concern with high flow primary cats being so close to the engine would be failure due to excessive heat. In that regard, I think the resonated primaries and high flow third cat might be the safer option.
And let's keep non resonated primary deletes right out of this discussion for obvious reasons. I would have bought them already if it wasn't for the smell/rasp.
08-30-2010, 05:01 PM
#17
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I'm very interested, I'd like them to compliment my soon-to-be RV6 V3 Jpipe and dual exhaust (sent you a deposit a few days back). That said, I'm not sure I can afford to add them at the same time (if you have them out that soon), or if they'll have to be a later addition.
anx1300c: Richie's J-pipe/exhaust combo deletes the 3rd cat in favor of longer tubing on the j-pipe, and a crossover. Could do a shorter j-pipe + hi-flo cat and run deletes, but probably less gains and you lose the crossover effect. So that's a big "con" for anyone planning on the combo.
Also, can the 3rd cat handle being the only cat, in terms of fouling, killing the smell, and in terms of getting by a sniffer? I don't know if anyone runs PCD's and keeps the 3rd one at present?
For emissions purposes, it seems like it'd be a little easier to swap out a j-pipe for a j-pipe + cat to get tested every couple years, than to swap out the other two...less to do and more accessible, I'd think.
08-30-2010, 06:33 PM
#18
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
The third cat, at least when we're talking about a stock vehicle, just takes it from being a "LEV" to an "ULEV". I think people have passed sniffers without a third cat in place while still retaining their primaries. If I'm not mistaken, Blackura had PCD's and full exhaust, but still had the stock third cat. And you're right, it would be a bitch for people to have to swap out their PCD's for a smog test!
08-30-2010, 07:07 PM
#19
I don't think any state allows you to mess around with the cats on your car so, you would likely have to switch back to stock cats for smog unless your state doesn't have visual inspection. I think these will be for off road use only like the PCD's, just a more civil version for the less hard core.
08-31-2010, 03:36 AM
#20
Former Sponsor
I'm definitely interested as well in high flow PCDS. Even if they're slightly more expensive than the standard PCDs, for those who don't want the smell / rasp / constant bumper cleaning it probably would work out to be about the same after you bought an aftermarket high flow cat and had it welded into your system.
Exhaust first?
I'm seeing some love here!
So now let's compare the pros and cons of high flow primaries (200 cell?) with a J pipe (any brand) and race pipe in place of the third cat VS resonated primary-cat deletes (IF they even come to fruition), J pipe and RV6 high flow third cat. I'm guessing both configurations will yield roughly the same power and tame the rasp with equal effectiveness. My greatest concern with high flow primary cats being so close to the engine would be failure due to excessive heat. In that regard, I think the resonated primaries and high flow third cat might be the safer option.
And let's keep non resonated primary deletes right out of this discussion for obvious reasons. I would have bought them already if it wasn't for the smell/rasp.
So now let's compare the pros and cons of high flow primaries (200 cell?) with a J pipe (any brand) and race pipe in place of the third cat VS resonated primary-cat deletes (IF they even come to fruition), J pipe and RV6 high flow third cat. I'm guessing both configurations will yield roughly the same power and tame the rasp with equal effectiveness. My greatest concern with high flow primary cats being so close to the engine would be failure due to excessive heat. In that regard, I think the resonated primaries and high flow third cat might be the safer option.
And let's keep non resonated primary deletes right out of this discussion for obvious reasons. I would have bought them already if it wasn't for the smell/rasp.
08-31-2010, 08:48 AM
#23
All motor
Anx: Are you worried more about the smell or rasp? If it's more the smell, you can run the RV6 high flow cat after the Jpipe just like you would the resonated deletes. I have a feeling you are more worried about the rasp since you are considering the resonated deletes; which share the similarity with the PCDs, which is that you won't pass inspection.
Honestly, all you need to kill the rasp is a (enter size here) resonator. I have a custom 3 inch catback running open Ypipe (no mufflers) and a Magnaflow 30" body resonator and there is 0 rasp. 2 Dynomax Ultra Flows are going on the weekend of the 10th if the shop is open and there will be no rasp whatsoever.
I just saw your signature and see you have the XLR8 resonated catback. I've heard that sounds amazing. With the PCDs you will have some rasp. You could do 3 things.
1) Ask Josh to send you another XLR8 resonator (if they can)
2) Weld in an outside resonator
3) Get a midpipe mocked up and add a large resonator (I'd recommend the Magnaflow 12640 for your application) and there will be no rasp at all
It basically comes down to whether you are more worried about the rasp or smell. Both can be combatted
Honestly, all you need to kill the rasp is a (enter size here) resonator. I have a custom 3 inch catback running open Ypipe (no mufflers) and a Magnaflow 30" body resonator and there is 0 rasp. 2 Dynomax Ultra Flows are going on the weekend of the 10th if the shop is open and there will be no rasp whatsoever.
I just saw your signature and see you have the XLR8 resonated catback. I've heard that sounds amazing. With the PCDs you will have some rasp. You could do 3 things.
1) Ask Josh to send you another XLR8 resonator (if they can)
2) Weld in an outside resonator
3) Get a midpipe mocked up and add a large resonator (I'd recommend the Magnaflow 12640 for your application) and there will be no rasp at all
It basically comes down to whether you are more worried about the rasp or smell. Both can be combatted
Last edited by Sonnick; 08-31-2010 at 08:51 AM.
08-31-2010, 07:45 PM
#26
Former Sponsor
It will be a fine work or art when completed.
08-31-2010, 10:53 PM
#27
Chapter Leader (Central Florida)
09-01-2010, 01:18 AM
#28
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09-03-2010, 08:12 PM
#29
when it comes to cats it matters if its metallic substrate or ceramic-ceramic could not be used in the TL application as the cat sits to close to the motor and the high temps it sees could melt the cat and send particles back into the motor scratching piston walls and such (can anyone say sentra se-r)
Then there are cell counts which determine how "high flow" they really are- 100 cell is expensive, hard to find, and will sometimes throw check engine lights- 200 cell are relatively cheap, easy to find and wont throw a cel.
Anything above a 200 cell isnt a high flow cat anymore in my eyes
Then there are cell counts which determine how "high flow" they really are- 100 cell is expensive, hard to find, and will sometimes throw check engine lights- 200 cell are relatively cheap, easy to find and wont throw a cel.
Anything above a 200 cell isnt a high flow cat anymore in my eyes
09-03-2010, 11:56 PM
#30
Former Sponsor
when it comes to cats it matters if its metallic substrate or ceramic-ceramic could not be used in the TL application as the cat sits to close to the motor and the high temps it sees could melt the cat and send particles back into the motor scratching piston walls and such (can anyone say sentra se-r)
Then there are cell counts which determine how "high flow" they really are- 100 cell is expensive, hard to find, and will sometimes throw check engine lights- 200 cell are relatively cheap, easy to find and wont throw a cel.
Anything above a 200 cell isnt a high flow cat anymore in my eyes
Then there are cell counts which determine how "high flow" they really are- 100 cell is expensive, hard to find, and will sometimes throw check engine lights- 200 cell are relatively cheap, easy to find and wont throw a cel.
Anything above a 200 cell isnt a high flow cat anymore in my eyes
09-06-2010, 03:36 PM
#31
Team Owner
I would buy them based on mod level, smell tolerance, and the state you live in.
In CA, the high flow cats will likely be just as illegal as PCDs. I have no issue with this whatsoever other than I would rather spend the money on the cheaper product if they're both illegal.
No 200 cell cat is going to make the ULEV TL pass emissions. They will get rid of most of the smell.
There really is no grey area, they're either approved for use or they're not.
Based on performance, a couple of 200 cell cats may show very similar numbers to PCDs on a bolted NA TL. I would not put them on a supercharged TL due to the extra exhaust flow requirements. Having cats bolted straight to the heads puts them at a major disadvantage when power is your priority and moving them downstream even an inch is illegal. If it were like a traditional setup where they're a few feet downstream from the heads they would do well even in a supercharged app.
I'll add that one of my really good friends is a CHP. He grew up racing and still does and he knows the smell of a catless car very well so maybe that's one more + for the high flow cats. Although I've been pulled over on leaded race gas with no cats and my eyes watering and nose running from the smell and the cop didn't know the difference.
In CA, the high flow cats will likely be just as illegal as PCDs. I have no issue with this whatsoever other than I would rather spend the money on the cheaper product if they're both illegal.
No 200 cell cat is going to make the ULEV TL pass emissions. They will get rid of most of the smell.
There really is no grey area, they're either approved for use or they're not.
Based on performance, a couple of 200 cell cats may show very similar numbers to PCDs on a bolted NA TL. I would not put them on a supercharged TL due to the extra exhaust flow requirements. Having cats bolted straight to the heads puts them at a major disadvantage when power is your priority and moving them downstream even an inch is illegal. If it were like a traditional setup where they're a few feet downstream from the heads they would do well even in a supercharged app.
I'll add that one of my really good friends is a CHP. He grew up racing and still does and he knows the smell of a catless car very well so maybe that's one more + for the high flow cats. Although I've been pulled over on leaded race gas with no cats and my eyes watering and nose running from the smell and the cop didn't know the difference.
09-06-2010, 08:16 PM
#32
Suzuka Master
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Yeah, according to my research, 200 cell high flows should make 80-90% of the power of full pcd's; 12 whp would be nice. If they minimize the rasp and smell then it's a perfectly acceptable trade off to me.
Any ballpark eta on these, Richie?
Any ballpark eta on these, Richie?
09-06-2010, 08:31 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Based on performance, a couple of 200 cell cats may show very similar numbers to PCDs on a bolted NA TL. I would not put them on a supercharged TL due to the extra exhaust flow requirements. Having cats bolted straight to the heads puts them at a major disadvantage when power is your priority and moving them downstream even an inch is illegal. If it were like a traditional setup where they're a few feet downstream from the heads they would do well even in a supercharged app.
I've asked several car guys I know, but none could really give me an answer..
09-06-2010, 08:31 PM
#34
Team Owner
Glad you brought this back up. I re-read what I wrote and wanted to clarify one point. I wrote that I would not use high flow cats on a supercharged TL. What I mean was that they will probably show higher percent of power loss over PCDs when supercharged. They obviously are still much better than stock cats.
09-06-2010, 08:47 PM
#35
Team Owner
Putting it as close to the engine as possible is mostly to help with cat warm up time. When cold they do nothing so it's good to get them up to temp as quickly as possible. Along with the precats being inches from the heads and a very well designed cooling system that allows the engine to warm up extremely quick, on cold start, the TL runs very rich, has intentional misfires to get raw fuel into the cats, and retards the timing. This heats the cats and 02 sensors extremely quickly. I've heard the TL is in closed loop fully emissions compliant operation within 10 seconds of a cold start. I know for sure mine is within 30 seconds but I've never paid attention quick enough when I had the scanner.
For comparison, on early 02 feedback cars like my GN, it would take about 5 minutes of idle time before it was in closed loop operation.
Cats will function pretty far back. Look at where the 3rd cat is, probably 3' back from the engine. That one is not required to warm up as quickly so it can be mounted farther downstream. Generally they require 400-600F temps to begin working.
There's no solid answer but I would say any farther than the 3rd cat and you will run into intermittent problems during light throttle driving when it cools down too much.
10-07-2010, 10:45 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Why has no one just bought the deletes and welded in two 200 spun cell cats? I have the cats sitting in my garage, now I just need to find time to cut apart the deletes and weld on the cats... 1k for high flow cats is just stupid!!!!
10-08-2010, 07:33 AM
#38
Three Wheelin'
10-08-2010, 11:30 AM
#39
Anx: Are you worried more about the smell or rasp? If it's more the smell, you can run the RV6 high flow cat after the Jpipe just like you would the resonated deletes. I have a feeling you are more worried about the rasp since you are considering the resonated deletes; which share the similarity with the PCDs, which is that you won't pass inspection.
Honestly, all you need to kill the rasp is a (enter size here) resonator. I have a custom 3 inch catback running open Ypipe (no mufflers) and a Magnaflow 30" body resonator and there is 0 rasp. 2 Dynomax Ultra Flows are going on the weekend of the 10th if the shop is open and there will be no rasp whatsoever.
I just saw your signature and see you have the XLR8 resonated catback. I've heard that sounds amazing. With the PCDs you will have some rasp. You could do 3 things.
1) Ask Josh to send you another XLR8 resonator (if they can)
2) Weld in an outside resonator
3) Get a midpipe mocked up and add a large resonator (I'd recommend the Magnaflow 12640 for your application) and there will be no rasp at all
It basically comes down to whether you are more worried about the rasp or smell. Both can be combatted
Honestly, all you need to kill the rasp is a (enter size here) resonator. I have a custom 3 inch catback running open Ypipe (no mufflers) and a Magnaflow 30" body resonator and there is 0 rasp. 2 Dynomax Ultra Flows are going on the weekend of the 10th if the shop is open and there will be no rasp whatsoever.
I just saw your signature and see you have the XLR8 resonated catback. I've heard that sounds amazing. With the PCDs you will have some rasp. You could do 3 things.
1) Ask Josh to send you another XLR8 resonator (if they can)
2) Weld in an outside resonator
3) Get a midpipe mocked up and add a large resonator (I'd recommend the Magnaflow 12640 for your application) and there will be no rasp at all
It basically comes down to whether you are more worried about the rasp or smell. Both can be combatted
10-09-2010, 11:40 PM
#40
I am really interested in these! Any other option besides the straight deletes sounds promising to me. It just so happens that I've started saving again, but I wasn't sure what for. Now I have an idea of what for. Also my inspection will be due soon and it would be good timing if these were done just after that. Let's say by Christmas? It would be a nice present to myself wouldn't you say?