bouncer07

how is the rev hang?

NvrDwn

A guy that knows what the hell he is talking about.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

yeah i've read through his build thread. I've been getting some good input and advice from Gerzand so far, and will continue tapping our all-motor build pioneers as needed

it would need to be custom. I don't believe anyone makes aftermarket pistons for the j35a8.

rev hang is gone. Shifting is better across the board as a result.

yes, Paul definitely knows what he's talking about

type-s'er

So then are you going to adjust your AFR to around 13.1 like Paul suggests? or is that for a different build?

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ you going to help contribute some funds? Dyno tuning at church is not cheap.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

rest assured that after my engine build is done the car will have to be re-tuned anyway.

DomGSR-T

iTrader: (1)

Wow, I don't understand all those haters, we should all be glad someone tried the Flashpro already, he spend is own time and money on this and he shared the results to all of us for free. So thanks again ILC for the great work! I also pass a lot of time on tuning timing and I only gain 2whp out of it, the TL is known for some pinging issues in stock oem form so that tells me that the timing is already set pretty high for pump gas. So 8whp from AF tuning and slight timing advance on a 2hours tune is 100% legit. Again, we should be grateful for real dyno results and forget the fairy tales dynos provided by shops like J-Pipes and JnR ECU and future bias results we will see posted here...

kingkong_dav

so after this write up do you think this mod was well worth the money? and can it be reset to stock program?

JJH

iTrader: (1)

I'm wondering if tunes can be sold...for example, someone with a 5AT type-s fully bolted gets a tune...can the tune be extracted and sold to be flashed to someone elses flashpro ecu?

NvrDwn

I would think so. But you may be opening a big can of worms.

Atlas.46

what he said.. also all cars aren't the same even though they have the sames mods.

the fenda rolla

On the 8thcivic.com, calibrations are shared freely:

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/honda...-datalogs.html

And of course there's the "autotune" feature on Flashpro...

Check it out:

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/honda...-flashpro.html

One more thing:

http://flashprotuning.com/

bouncer07

^ Thanks for trying to get people into the game. http://flashprotuning.com/ <------ This is the website if anyone wants to learn how to tune their cars.
Another webite is http://vittuned.com , email vit@vittuned.com for etunez!

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

yes it can always be reset to stock.

and yes I think it was entirely worth the money. Lots of people really only care about seeing high dyno numbers. You won't see huge gains but every person who has been in my car since the tune has noticed a difference when I run it down an on-ramp.

You basically have 2 tuning options for the TL - the JnR or the Flashpro.

Pros for the JnR is it works on all models (different harnesses required for different models, though), whereas the con to the Flashpro is only 07-08 TL is supported.

Pros for the Flashpro are it is not a piggyback like JnR and will actually re-write the stock ECU parameters, in effect giving you a solution that will be less prone to throwing CEL's or having rough idle, etc. like the JnR has had.

For 07-08 TL it's a no-brainer - Flashpro all the way if nothing else due to the support of Hondata.

If you're like me and are building the engine with heads, a custom cam regrind, etc. then you need a tuning solution no matter what. At which point I again refer to Flashpro as the no-brainer.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

ILC...first off, great work....you have been taking dyno's periodically and posting them up....really appreciate the effort....

now for the questions...I remember Andy's and Juam's cars (Type S, 6MT) making 298-303whp at the dyno without a flashpro (or any other tuning)....

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/08-mt-tl-type-s-new-dyno-results-865101/
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/08-mt-tl-type-s-new-dyno-results-796580/

your type S 6mt is making 295whp after tuning....any reason why you are still making ~10 less hp even though you have your car tuned?

I would have assumed you will be ~325whp mark being fully bolted on and tuned (i know Andy was making right around there with his type S 6MT with JnR ECU before he did the heads and cams and nitrous)

i was hoping that you would gain more with this (upwards or 15whp)....

again, just to be clear, am not trying to bash you....I really appreciate you doing this and putting everything here which will help future buyers/etc....I am just a curious lurker....

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

I'll never understand why people continue to compare different dyno charts from different dynos when they know that no two dynos are going to read exactly the same, not to mention the initial variances that are possible on identical cars when they're bone stock.

type-s'er

Swoosh...^^ exactly what I've been wondering on this thread, be careful though, people get butt hurt so easily around here...appreciate what you're doing though ILC

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^anx i agree that the 2 dyno's dont read the same and also that both cars a different....but the power difference is almost 25whp !!!

I remember Andy and Juam had posted dyno sheets which were SAE corrected and one was on a dynojet while the other on the mustang....I understand a difference of 2-5whp....but as I mentioned ILC is at 295 tuned and both Andy/Juam were at 325 tuned....with the same amount of mods....

only mod difference i see is that ILC does not have pnp lower runners while Andy and Juam did BUT they were running 3.5 manifold and TB (ported and polished) and ILC is running 3.7 manifold and TB....those mods kinda offset IMO

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

AGAIN I AM NOT BASHING ILC....

I think 295 whp is awesome and someday I would like to be in the 300whp range...I am just curious to why the difference between the Type S 6MT tuned cars is around 25-30whp

dandaman15

Kings dyno is known to read lower than others in the area. So that could be one factor right there. Although when I dyno'd my Accord 6-6 at the fall dyno day, I was pretty happy with the results. They seemed fair to me.

Morrissey25

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for sharing ILC. I'll be stopping back for further updates

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

Anil, no worries here.

Biggest reason for that different is I don't have ported/polished intake runners and subsequently port-matched IM to lower runners. And the main reason for that was because all along I've planned to have head work done, which would have required some custom PnP of the runners anyway, so I was just waiting. as it stands, I bought Andy's j32a3 heads/intake runners to resolve that. Won't have them till he is ready to drop in his j32a2 heads (i'm hoping in June), but regardless that's why I delayed.

The differences beyond that should be minimal and chalked up to "different car, different dyno, different day".

a set of pnp runners would open it up a lot and with a tune even more. That can account for quite a bit. at that point I would say the only other difference would potentially be in AFR, as my ignition timing cannot be advanced anymore without detonation

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

ILC thanks for taking the comment in a more positive way....I think the ported runners/port matching/etc will gain you ~12-15whp (think sonnick saw those numbers)....the gains from the Hondata seems kinda low (7whp)....I was kinda trying to hint towards the tuning....

Send Gerzand or KN a PM...those guys are the residential tuning GODS !!! maybe if there is a little more timing and AFR adjustment, you will see some more ponies...

I would love to see you in the 320-range tuned....even if this ECU nets you 12-15whp, its a solid gain for ~700-1000 bucks

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

see my edit above - ignition timing is as far as it will go. The only power to potentially be made at this point on the tune by itself would be adjusted AFR. My car is currently out of commission right now (hit a curb making a u-turn lol), but once I have it back, relatively soon I intend to start data logging and checking the tune out myself. I'm lazy but I have become curious about how the air/fuel is being balanced right now, and want to know if that really does sit where I think it does.

Rest assured I've talked to Andy and will continue that discussion. And as always I want to stay active in posting results whether people like them or not for the advancement of the community at large.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

were you there this fall? I didn't see a 6-6 this year and I was there most of the day. Some guy was there in an RSX-S and he was furious with King that day because his (non-cammed) RSX-S with a k-pro and couple bolt-ons only put down 212 whp, and he had a dynamometer from Madison the week before showing 250, rofl. Angriest 45 year old guy I've seen at a car event, right there. He just kept cursing about how this is bullshit and their dyno is crap, blah blah blah lol.

I personally go to dyno the difference between mods to see what gains they make. The end result is nice to see a big number of course but not really why I do it.

For me, the only real dyno number goal I have in mind is 350 with a high compression build. and that's just for the sake of having another voice in the community alongside Andy who can say "yes, you can build a TL motor and it is awesome", lol.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

oh yeah and also I have HFPC's

other cars had PCD's which does contribute to the higher numbers especially when a tune comes into play.

I'll be buying PCD's soon, though. I also just bought a new set of cams from acuraoemparts.com to give to King so that a custom grind can be figured out for my build. Hopefully it will all be ready to go once I have my heads

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

GOOD EDIT

logging is a great way to go about it....and you are in good hands with Andy

and dont even think for a second that I didnt like the results (just making it clear LOL)....i love the results and am eager to see more....

well done buddy

dandaman15

Yea I was there this fall, I remember they posted your car on their FB as one of the first dynos that day. I saw that right when I got up, and didnt get there for a few hours after that.


I've since redone my intake and added the RV6-v3 jpipe. I want to redyno and see how much it changed. That was with just a home made short ram that measured like 2.75 ID and cat back exhaust. I got a 3.5in ID pipe and made a better short ram since. Hope to be around 240 but id guess 237.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

where are you located?

you should try to get in for the summer dyno days in June

dandaman15

Yes, I definitely will. Im in West Allis but close to the New Berlin boarder. About 15min away from King.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

no doubt i'll have to check out your car if you go this year. I grew up in new berlin (currently in waukesha) and i'm out that way a lot. My boss lives near 124th and national so I'm often over there working on his m3's

Sonnick

That gives us even a better perspective of the 'numbers,' since that seems to be most of the concern. ~300whp on that dyno is boss.

With that said, the Hondata gains are solid gains. Don't hate.

bouncer07

If anyone haven't seen Church's dyno, people will be butt hurt that why or how did that car make so much? It's all a tool, it's what gain that counts. If you gain +50 whp on your parts, then it was worth it.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

I disagree that the power gains are all that counts.

The true reason for tuning here is to make everything work in tandem, which does yield some power gains, but real power on NA motors is gained from compression, head work, and cams. Nothing more, nothing less. The tune is required only for the purpose of making the real power generators work together properly so your car doesn't fall apart.

It's a tool yes, but the real import of it is how much further it allows you to take your build beyond simple bolt-ons.

On a boosted application you have more to work with, and typically tuning by itself can start providing more significant gains (see: any Cobb tune on an N54/55 motor in a BMW). But still boost is far and away the real power generator in that scenario, and tuning is there to help facilitate all the pieces working together.

Bottom line is, I want power out of my TL motor without boosting, so I'm sinking another 5k into it for heads, cams, ported intake runners - that's where real power gains are gonna come from, plain and simple. Not gonna get throw-you-in-your-seat-power from some NA tune for simple bolt-on mods, lol.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

I believe it was in Honda Tuning Magazine that I saw a 1G TSX making like 255-260 whp with a few minor bolt ons on Church's dyno. That's laughable and their dyno is known to read crazy high. Not to mention, there can be a pretty solid difference between two identical make and model cars right off the showroom floor. Look at Sonnick's car; it's a freak, and his corrected trap speeds pretty much dispel any idea the dyno he uses reads high. All this is why I don't understand why people over analyze the differences between different cars on different dynos when the results can be substantially different. Doesn't mean that side by side on the road the cars won't be much closer than the dynos would indicate.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

damn !!! its gonna be an EPIC build dude....I had so many plans with the car but the wifey wanted to buy a house

are you stroking the motor as well or port and polish with cams and valvetrain upgrade (just an head upgrade) ?

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

Yep, I hear ya. Luckily for me the wife knows we can't buy a house till I sell one of our rentals, and that by itself should cover the down payment. (currently living in a fixer-upper that I rebuilt so the mortgage only costs me 420 a month) BUT once we have that stupid house my free cash flow will be greatly reduced so I'm getting in all my major TL modding now before the storm hits

the stroke on the type-s is actually considerably more than the base (like 5 or 6mm if I recall), and actually makes for a great platform to do a custom bottom end. However, there isn't any place out there with a piston that'll work off the shelf, so would have to get custom specs from a stock piston and work from there.

I wanted raised compression so I bought Gerzand's heads. While I wait for him to get his new heads machined so he can pull the old ones and send them, I'm gonna get rocker ratios and give new cams to KMS to play around with. They run race builds on 13:1 with pump gas and are convinced that ability to run pump gas on high compression has everything to do with cam specs and the tune to support it.

So I want to let them explore that. If not, I have the set of cams I'm currently using in my car that can be reground if all else fails.

all the changes to my car from where it sits to the final build would include gerzand's intake runners and heads, port matched my 3.7 manifold to the runners, cam regrind, new valve springs (obviously), a custom 4" intake that I'll make myself, and PCD's

Whether it will be able to run on pump gas or not, remains to be seen - i originally planned to run a 108 octane mixture and deal with the ramifications of that as it destroys my spark plugs and makes the exhaust tips look ridiculous on a daily basis. But I was fully prepared to buy a lifetime supply of octane boost, lol.

I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of horsepower for a 93 octane tune that will run without detonation, though.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

yes...13.1 CR will be pushing it on pump gas...I think a 12:1 or 12.5:1 would be the max I go on 91/93 octane....but they know more than I do, so I will let them dictate what is to be done LOL....

and yes, the 3.5 on the Type S has a 7mm more stroke (93mm)....now if you can stroke this to the J37 stroke which is 96mm, it would be EPIC !!!! Looking at a 3.6L (3.5815 L) as compared to a 3.4696 L OEM Type S motor...

not sure if it can be done...never seen it before but, if you are diving soo deep into it, might as well consider that option....hit up Paul and see if it can be done

man am eager to see your build....I had the same wishes since the past 2 years but something or the other came in between....I really hope this works out for ya....

is there like an HP/TQ, you are shooting for? your final aim/goal?

fsttyms1

Im putting the 3.7 rotating assembly (crank rods pistons) in my (bored) j35 block. Just waiting for a few things to get here so i can start assembling.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

if you use the j37 pistons, you will further increase displacement as the j35 has 89mm pistons and the j37 has 90mm pistons...

man this will be awesome.... :sub'd: