E3 Diamond Spark Plugs anyone?
08-13-2009, 07:24 PM
#1
E3 Diamond Spark Plugs anyone?
I was thinking of spending a little cash this weekend on some maintenance things. I am going to replace my tranny fluid with GM Syncromesh and possibly replace my spark plugs. I was thinking of getting the E3 DiamondFire Sparkplugs. These...
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...EAMS_887766397___
The reason I put it in the performance category is cause was watching Horsepower on Spike TV when they tested these plugs on a V8. It actually made more HP and Torque and improved fuel economy. It was a V8 though and I was wondering if anyone else has used these plugs and noticed a difference? Improved HP, torque, fuel economy? Would you recomend these plugs?
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...EAMS_887766397___
The reason I put it in the performance category is cause was watching Horsepower on Spike TV when they tested these plugs on a V8. It actually made more HP and Torque and improved fuel economy. It was a V8 though and I was wondering if anyone else has used these plugs and noticed a difference? Improved HP, torque, fuel economy? Would you recomend these plugs?
08-13-2009, 09:39 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
i wouldn't run nothing but NGK iridiums...
this whole "more power, better fuel economy" drives me up the wall....lol
power is made with FUEL... so lets consider this for a min...
lets just say the ECU is dumping a certain amount of fuel into ur combustion chamber, and ur plugs are giving you a certain spark, and for arguments sake, lets say that, that amount of fuel isn't fully burning.... so now you got some better plugs, stronger spark. while the ECU is still dumping the same amount of fuel, the "better" plug is enabling full burning on that fuel (assuming the required amount oxygen is there), thus resulting in a bit more power... and this can be completely understandable... but...how can fuel economy increase here?
to MAKE power, you have to burn more fuel, there is NO QUESTIONS ABOUT IT. Making power is done through INDUCTION and INJECTION
there's another thing... RELEASING POWER...that can be a combo of many things...such as accesories, lighter crank pulley, lighter flywheel, lighter wheels, lighter axles, free flowing exhaust, weight reduction.....pretty much anything that would give back the robbed power from the motor. now things like this, would give you better fuel economy for the much increased performance...keep in mind that, your car still needs a certain amount of air/fuel and timing to keep making that stock power, but since the load on the motor has lessened, thus resulting in lighter throttle to move that load than when it had a greater load, which can save gas.
example: lets say it takes half throttle opening to move your car from a stop to 30 mph in 3 seconds, if the car weighted 3500 lbs
it would take less than half of the throttle opening to move the car from 0 to 30 in 3 seconds if the car was 3000 lbs.
OR, you can forget about the fuel economy, and burn the same amount of fuel, meaning with half throttle opening, on the 3000 lbs...but it would move to 30 mph in less than 3 secs
this may seem like some example for kids...but someone else will bump into it....
this whole "more power, better fuel economy" drives me up the wall....lol
power is made with FUEL... so lets consider this for a min...
lets just say the ECU is dumping a certain amount of fuel into ur combustion chamber, and ur plugs are giving you a certain spark, and for arguments sake, lets say that, that amount of fuel isn't fully burning.... so now you got some better plugs, stronger spark. while the ECU is still dumping the same amount of fuel, the "better" plug is enabling full burning on that fuel (assuming the required amount oxygen is there), thus resulting in a bit more power... and this can be completely understandable... but...how can fuel economy increase here?
to MAKE power, you have to burn more fuel, there is NO QUESTIONS ABOUT IT. Making power is done through INDUCTION and INJECTION
there's another thing... RELEASING POWER...that can be a combo of many things...such as accesories, lighter crank pulley, lighter flywheel, lighter wheels, lighter axles, free flowing exhaust, weight reduction.....pretty much anything that would give back the robbed power from the motor. now things like this, would give you better fuel economy for the much increased performance...keep in mind that, your car still needs a certain amount of air/fuel and timing to keep making that stock power, but since the load on the motor has lessened, thus resulting in lighter throttle to move that load than when it had a greater load, which can save gas.
example: lets say it takes half throttle opening to move your car from a stop to 30 mph in 3 seconds, if the car weighted 3500 lbs
it would take less than half of the throttle opening to move the car from 0 to 30 in 3 seconds if the car was 3000 lbs.
OR, you can forget about the fuel economy, and burn the same amount of fuel, meaning with half throttle opening, on the 3000 lbs...but it would move to 30 mph in less than 3 secs
this may seem like some example for kids...but someone else will bump into it....
08-14-2009, 10:05 AM
#3
Team Owner
i wouldn't run nothing but NGK iridiums...
this whole "more power, better fuel economy" drives me up the wall....lol
power is made with FUEL... so lets consider this for a min...
lets just say the ECU is dumping a certain amount of fuel into ur combustion chamber, and ur plugs are giving you a certain spark, and for arguments sake, lets say that, that amount of fuel isn't fully burning.... so now you got some better plugs, stronger spark. while the ECU is still dumping the same amount of fuel, the "better" plug is enabling full burning on that fuel (assuming the required amount oxygen is there), thus resulting in a bit more power... and this can be completely understandable... but...how can fuel economy increase here?
to MAKE power, you have to burn more fuel, there is NO QUESTIONS ABOUT IT. Making power is done through INDUCTION and INJECTION
there's another thing... RELEASING POWER...that can be a combo of many things...such as accesories, lighter crank pulley, lighter flywheel, lighter wheels, lighter axles, free flowing exhaust, weight reduction.....pretty much anything that would give back the robbed power from the motor. now things like this, would give you better fuel economy for the much increased performance...keep in mind that, your car still needs a certain amount of air/fuel and timing to keep making that stock power, but since the load on the motor has lessened, thus resulting in lighter throttle to move that load than when it had a greater load, which can save gas.
example: lets say it takes half throttle opening to move your car from a stop to 30 mph in 3 seconds, if the car weighted 3500 lbs
it would take less than half of the throttle opening to move the car from 0 to 30 in 3 seconds if the car was 3000 lbs.
OR, you can forget about the fuel economy, and burn the same amount of fuel, meaning with half throttle opening, on the 3000 lbs...but it would move to 30 mph in less than 3 secs
this may seem like some example for kids...but someone else will bump into it....
this whole "more power, better fuel economy" drives me up the wall....lol
power is made with FUEL... so lets consider this for a min...
lets just say the ECU is dumping a certain amount of fuel into ur combustion chamber, and ur plugs are giving you a certain spark, and for arguments sake, lets say that, that amount of fuel isn't fully burning.... so now you got some better plugs, stronger spark. while the ECU is still dumping the same amount of fuel, the "better" plug is enabling full burning on that fuel (assuming the required amount oxygen is there), thus resulting in a bit more power... and this can be completely understandable... but...how can fuel economy increase here?
to MAKE power, you have to burn more fuel, there is NO QUESTIONS ABOUT IT. Making power is done through INDUCTION and INJECTION
there's another thing... RELEASING POWER...that can be a combo of many things...such as accesories, lighter crank pulley, lighter flywheel, lighter wheels, lighter axles, free flowing exhaust, weight reduction.....pretty much anything that would give back the robbed power from the motor. now things like this, would give you better fuel economy for the much increased performance...keep in mind that, your car still needs a certain amount of air/fuel and timing to keep making that stock power, but since the load on the motor has lessened, thus resulting in lighter throttle to move that load than when it had a greater load, which can save gas.
example: lets say it takes half throttle opening to move your car from a stop to 30 mph in 3 seconds, if the car weighted 3500 lbs
it would take less than half of the throttle opening to move the car from 0 to 30 in 3 seconds if the car was 3000 lbs.
OR, you can forget about the fuel economy, and burn the same amount of fuel, meaning with half throttle opening, on the 3000 lbs...but it would move to 30 mph in less than 3 secs
this may seem like some example for kids...but someone else will bump into it....
I'm going to be out of a job around here with you around lol.
The simple answer to these multiple spark spark plugs is electicity takes the path of least resistance. You can have 50 electrodes but it's only going to jump to one of them at a time. All the other ones do is shroud the spark which is bad. If you look at FI cars they don't have the traditional ground electrode, the spark jumps from the massively exposed center to the outside edge of the plug. You want that spark out there in the open.
If you're looking to increase performance, buy some stock plugs. Make a mark with a sharpie on the outside of the plug that corresponds with the "open" area of the electrode, where the spark actually jumps. When you insert the plug, you want this open area to face the intake valve. This is called "indexing". It won't give you more than 1 hp at the most but it's free. There are special washers sold of different thicknesses to get the plug to face the direction you want.
No matter what you do, use anti-sieze on the threads.
There is a real advantage to multiple ignition points. This is why Ford is going to a lazer instead of plugs that includes 50-100 small beams that disperse throughout the chamber to make sure every ounce of fuel burns. This is not possible with traditional plugs obviously. Keep in mind the main benefit of this is emissions, not power or economy.
08-16-2009, 05:03 PM
#7
Well, I changed my plugs and I did indeed get the E3 plugs. The car needed it too. On one of my plugs the little hook was touching the electrode with no gap and all of the electrodes were worn to a needle tip. 
Whether it is a result of the tune up or the plugs themselves I did feel that the cars pickup did improve. Maybe just restored stock hp or increased it, not sure which. Probably just restored it. I did, like I said, feel a little more torque in acceleration and the engine feels like it runs smoother.
On a side note. Changing the tranny fluid is a PITA. So many covers to remove.
Aarg. But it was worth it and the car feels smooooooth.
Whether it is a result of the tune up or the plugs themselves I did feel that the cars pickup did improve. Maybe just restored stock hp or increased it, not sure which. Probably just restored it. I did, like I said, feel a little more torque in acceleration and the engine feels like it runs smoother.
On a side note. Changing the tranny fluid is a PITA. So many covers to remove.
Aarg. But it was worth it and the car feels smooooooth.
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08-16-2009, 05:20 PM
#8
Team Owner
Well, I changed my plugs and I did indeed get the E3 plugs. The car needed it too. On one of my plugs the little hook was touching the electrode with no gap and all of the electrodes were worn to a needle tip.
Whether it is a result of the tune up or the plugs themselves I did feel that the cars pickup did improve. Maybe just restored stock hp or increased it, not sure which. Probably just restored it. I did, like I said, feel a little more torque in acceleration and the engine feels like it runs smoother.
On a side note. Changing the tranny fluid is a PITA. So many covers to remove. Aarg. But it was worth it and the car feels smooooooth.
Whether it is a result of the tune up or the plugs themselves I did feel that the cars pickup did improve. Maybe just restored stock hp or increased it, not sure which. Probably just restored it. I did, like I said, feel a little more torque in acceleration and the engine feels like it runs smoother.
On a side note. Changing the tranny fluid is a PITA. So many covers to remove.
Aarg. But it was worth it and the car feels smooooooth.What did the plugs look like? The closed gap is not a good thing, hopefully it happened when they were installed.
08-16-2009, 07:02 PM
#9
the spark end looked like normal wear. No buildup or anything. The ceramic part had orangish marks coming from the thread direction. Looked like a custom painted flame job. Like a burn. I don't know what would've caused that.
I don't think the piston hit that one plug.
I don't think the piston hit that one plug.
08-16-2009, 09:33 PM
#11
Team Owner
Yep. I remember in the old old days when I first got the GN and ran some 104+ octane booster. When I removed the plugs the first time they were rust orange. Luckily before I pulled the heads in search of the problem I found out it was just the booster.
08-17-2009, 12:05 AM
#13
Well, I got the car with 53000 miles on it so there is no telling what the previous owner did to it. Since the premium fuel is higher octane than regular which is what most cars use then do you think it turned that color just becuase of the premium? Premium is 93 here in NC.
08-17-2009, 12:42 PM
#14
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
E3 = marketing machine.
08-17-2009, 01:30 PM
#16
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
for one.. NGK Iridiums are OE spec.. second.. you don't change the gap on iridiums.
08-17-2009, 08:28 PM
#17
"3. Gapping
Since the gap size has a direct affect on the spark plug's tip temperature
and on the voltage necessary to ionize (light) the air/fuel mixture, careful attention is required. While it is a popular misconception that plugs are pre-gapped from the factory, the fact remains that the gap must be adjusted for the vehicle that the spark plug is intended for. Those with modified engines must remember that a modified engine with higher compression or forced induction will typically require a smaller gap settings (to ensure ignitability
in these denser air/fuel mixtures). As a rule, the more power you are making, the smaller the gap you will need.
A spark plug's voltage requirement is directly proportionate to the gap size. The larger the gap, the more voltage is needed to bridge the gap. Most experienced tuners know that opening gaps up to present a larger spark to the air/fuel mixture maximizes burn efficiency. It is for this reason that most racers add high power ignition systems. The added power allows them to open the gap yet still provide a strong spark.
With this mind, many think the larger the gap the better. In fact, some aftermarket ignition systems boast that their systems can tolerate gaps that are extreme. Be wary of such claims. In most cases, the largest gap you can run may still be smaller than you think."
If you still don't believe me then check it out for yourself.
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinf...try=US#gapping
08-17-2009, 08:49 PM
#18
Team Owner
Well the thread was about the E3 plugs and I thought I did pretty good. But for 6 they are $16 cheaper. Any plug that has the hook design needs to be gapped to spec. Just shifting around in the box during shipping could vary the gap from one plug to another. Allow me to put a nail in the coffin of this gapping issue. The following is an excerpt from the NGK Iridium spark plug website...
"3. Gapping
Since the gap size has a direct affect on the spark plug's tip temperature
and on the voltage necessary to ionize (light) the air/fuel mixture, careful attention is required. While it is a popular misconception that plugs are pre-gapped from the factory, the fact remains that the gap must be adjusted for the vehicle that the spark plug is intended for. Those with modified engines must remember that a modified engine with higher compression or forced induction will typically require a smaller gap settings (to ensure ignitability
in these denser air/fuel mixtures). As a rule, the more power you are making, the smaller the gap you will need.
A spark plug's voltage requirement is directly proportionate to the gap size. The larger the gap, the more voltage is needed to bridge the gap. Most experienced tuners know that opening gaps up to present a larger spark to the air/fuel mixture maximizes burn efficiency. It is for this reason that most racers add high power ignition systems. The added power allows them to open the gap yet still provide a strong spark.
With this mind, many think the larger the gap the better. In fact, some aftermarket ignition systems boast that their systems can tolerate gaps that are extreme. Be wary of such claims. In most cases, the largest gap you can run may still be smaller than you think."
If you still don't believe me then check it out for yourself.
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinf...try=US#gapping
"3. Gapping
Since the gap size has a direct affect on the spark plug's tip temperature
and on the voltage necessary to ionize (light) the air/fuel mixture, careful attention is required. While it is a popular misconception that plugs are pre-gapped from the factory, the fact remains that the gap must be adjusted for the vehicle that the spark plug is intended for. Those with modified engines must remember that a modified engine with higher compression or forced induction will typically require a smaller gap settings (to ensure ignitability
in these denser air/fuel mixtures). As a rule, the more power you are making, the smaller the gap you will need.
A spark plug's voltage requirement is directly proportionate to the gap size. The larger the gap, the more voltage is needed to bridge the gap. Most experienced tuners know that opening gaps up to present a larger spark to the air/fuel mixture maximizes burn efficiency. It is for this reason that most racers add high power ignition systems. The added power allows them to open the gap yet still provide a strong spark.
With this mind, many think the larger the gap the better. In fact, some aftermarket ignition systems boast that their systems can tolerate gaps that are extreme. Be wary of such claims. In most cases, the largest gap you can run may still be smaller than you think."
If you still don't believe me then check it out for yourself.
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinf...try=US#gapping
I always check the gap on my pre-gapped plugs and so far I've never had to change the gap. They're always been spot on. Typically, they don't want you to gap iridiums yourself because they're more easily damaged from improper gapping techniques.
Like I said before, you probably notice a performance increase because one of your plugs was nearly shut. That's not to say you wouldn't have seen a larger increase with new stock plugs.
You went against the advice of those of use that have used gimmick plugs before so that shows that you were set on using these things no matter what and you'll make yourself believe you feel a nice difference.
Once again, the spark can only jump to one electrode at a time. There is absolutely no point to ever have more than one ground electrode. I believe Mojofo is an EE, he can go into more detail there.
What you've done is shrouded the spark from the air/fuel mixture and increased the chances of pre-ignition. Luckily the TL doesn't make a whole lot of power or have a very dense charge. Otherwise you would notice the loss of power. The difference can also show up in a smog test.
I've tried all this stuff before. I remember when splitfires came out and I threw them in the turbo car. Turbo cars are great for testing stuff like this because everything is exaggerated. If it makes a positive difference, it's more noticable. If it's negative, same thing. I'll save you the boring details but there's a reason why I run the factory AC Delco plain boring plugs (3 heat ranges colder of course).
And for what it's worth I'm running Platinums right now because at the time I couldn't find Iridiums one step colder like I'm now running. It doesn't affect me as much since I change the plugs at 50,000 mile intervals for inspection anyway.
Next change will either be regular coppers or Iridiums in the one step colder, haven't decided yet.
08-17-2009, 10:10 PM
#19
Well. This thread was for the E3's. I did wait for a response, but was hoping that someone else has used these plugs to give me an idea of their worth. I guess I am the first to use them, so this is my review. And I endorse them. I mean, damn, the car still runs so wtf.
I guess the tip of the day is, "Stick with what you know."
I guess the tip of the day is, "Stick with what you know."
08-18-2009, 12:04 AM
#21
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Well the thread was about the E3 plugs and I thought I did pretty good. But for 6 they are $16 cheaper. Any plug that has the hook design needs to be gapped to spec. Just shifting around in the box during shipping could vary the gap from one plug to another. Allow me to put a nail in the coffin of this gapping issue. The following is an excerpt from the NGK Iridium spark plug website...
The technical service manual also states NGK Laser Iridiums (6994) are OE spec and that they are not to be gapped, and although NGK says the the ground electrode may indeed be gapped they also say not to change the gap by more than 0.008" .. (0.004" per 50 hp for FI apps - for you guys thinking of the turbo kit / running CT S/C).
My buddy and I have studied the E3 plug along with Pulstar plugs against NGK Iridiums. The multi sided ground electrode of the E3 does not provide a consistent spark. What we observed was a jump from side to side with the spark being shrouded by the pronged electrode. The Pulstars had a dramatically stronger spark but have proven to be unreliable / fragile. The NGK Iridium's are proven performers and had a consistent spark even at high freqs.
The E3 plug (energy, efficiency, environment / ecology.. blah) is all marketing. It's no better than a standard plug. It's also not the first multi pronged plug in the market and wont be the last. I get disgusted by reading their own page about their "Diamond Fire Technology"
1] There is a component that mimics surface gap spark plugs (the type used in rotary engines and others) which directs the flame kernel to the piston (or rotor) more directly, reducing the travel time from the spark zone to the end gases. This avoids the "doughnut" shaped flame kernel produced by standard plugs, and is achieved by opening the section at the top of the electrode. Given the short time available to get combustion started, the faster you can get the flame to the piston, the better. 
2] With retracted plug designs, the generated spark lies against the combustion chamber wall. So we designed the electrode to project farther forward into the combustion chamber. This brings the spark zone closer to areas of probable "good" air/fuel mixture. The E3 outward projection also creates beneficial "micro-aerodynamics" within the spark zone. The initial combustion wave leaves the spark area at supersonic speeds above Mach 1, and the elevated edge provides a kind of chimney effect so the next round of air/fuel mixture gets into the spark zone.
3] The strongest part of the E3 electrode design is the forced edge-to-edge spark discharge, which is the best way to get a spark to leave a surface. Our design improves upon the phenomena that drove race car drivers to "cut back" ordinary electrode spark plugs in order to improve the spark discharge. The spark itself occurs only when an avalanche of electrons migrates from the two electrodes (anode to cathode). Sharp edges are better at initiating electron migrations, and these accelerated electrons collide with matter inside the spark zone to release additional electrons. With the DiamondFire design, the whole population of electrons works to create a plasma channel through which the spark current flows more easily.
2] With retracted plug designs, the generated spark lies against the combustion chamber wall. So we designed the electrode to project farther forward into the combustion chamber. This brings the spark zone closer to areas of probable "good" air/fuel mixture. The E3 outward projection also creates beneficial "micro-aerodynamics" within the spark zone. The initial combustion wave leaves the spark area at supersonic speeds above Mach 1, and the elevated edge provides a kind of chimney effect so the next round of air/fuel mixture gets into the spark zone.
3] The strongest part of the E3 electrode design is the forced edge-to-edge spark discharge, which is the best way to get a spark to leave a surface. Our design improves upon the phenomena that drove race car drivers to "cut back" ordinary electrode spark plugs in order to improve the spark discharge. The spark itself occurs only when an avalanche of electrons migrates from the two electrodes (anode to cathode). Sharp edges are better at initiating electron migrations, and these accelerated electrons collide with matter inside the spark zone to release additional electrons. With the DiamondFire design, the whole population of electrons works to create a plasma channel through which the spark current flows more easily.
08-18-2009, 12:06 AM
#22
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
08-18-2009, 12:24 AM
#23
Three Wheelin'
I give up, lol.... i dont get ppl asking for advice and not considering it... here's the funny part....they will always, always, always believe that there's a gain on a certain something, and will never doubt it, nor question it.... but they will never believe that there's no gain, and that's what they will doubt and question to death....
i guess maybe i should give up the 2 step colder NGK iridiums that im using and go for the E3's....what do you think, OP?
i suggest you look at some of us who've modified our cars to almost where ya cant recognize them anymore, and see what plugs everyone is using.
i guess maybe i should give up the 2 step colder NGK iridiums that im using and go for the E3's....what do you think, OP?
i suggest you look at some of us who've modified our cars to almost where ya cant recognize them anymore, and see what plugs everyone is using.
09-15-2009, 11:42 AM
#24
6th Gear
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I am also interested in the E3 and have considered buying them, purely for their design and available test data on the web. This post is kind of funny, with the stuff people are throwing around.
"Iridium, because that is what they come with" - so you use the factory Acura/Honda Oil?
"The spark just jumps the gap" - so what is the difference with two spark plugs if the spark just jumps a gap, or maybe the Iridium material withstands heat a little better and last longer, and that is why Honda can say 100k miles before a tune-up ....hmmm
What would be the point of 'Plug Indexing' if it is that easy, and “plugs just produce spark”. Or maybe it is plug design and the route that the flame kernel will take when it is ignited by the spark. Will the flame travel around the ground strap to the combustion chamber, or will it have a quicker more direct path?
Just throwing a few questions out there, any takers?
"Iridium, because that is what they come with" - so you use the factory Acura/Honda Oil?
"The spark just jumps the gap" - so what is the difference with two spark plugs if the spark just jumps a gap, or maybe the Iridium material withstands heat a little better and last longer, and that is why Honda can say 100k miles before a tune-up ....hmmm
What would be the point of 'Plug Indexing' if it is that easy, and “plugs just produce spark”. Or maybe it is plug design and the route that the flame kernel will take when it is ignited by the spark. Will the flame travel around the ground strap to the combustion chamber, or will it have a quicker more direct path?
Just throwing a few questions out there, any takers?
09-15-2009, 11:51 AM
#25
Team Owner
I am also interested in the E3 and have considered buying them, purely for their design and available test data on the web. This post is kind of funny, with the stuff people are throwing around.
"Iridium, because that is what they come with" - so you use the factory Acura/Honda Oil?
"The spark just jumps the gap" - so what is the difference with two spark plugs if the spark just jumps a gap, or maybe the Iridium material withstands heat a little better and last longer, and that is why Honda can say 100k miles before a tune-up ....hmmm
What would be the point of 'Plug Indexing' if it is that easy, and “plugs just produce spark”. Or maybe it is plug design and the route that the flame kernel will take when it is ignited by the spark. Will the flame travel around the ground strap to the combustion chamber, or will it have a quicker more direct path?
Just throwing a few questions out there, any takers?
"Iridium, because that is what they come with" - so you use the factory Acura/Honda Oil?
"The spark just jumps the gap" - so what is the difference with two spark plugs if the spark just jumps a gap, or maybe the Iridium material withstands heat a little better and last longer, and that is why Honda can say 100k miles before a tune-up ....hmmm
What would be the point of 'Plug Indexing' if it is that easy, and “plugs just produce spark”. Or maybe it is plug design and the route that the flame kernel will take when it is ignited by the spark. Will the flame travel around the ground strap to the combustion chamber, or will it have a quicker more direct path?
Just throwing a few questions out there, any takers?
09-15-2009, 11:55 AM
#26
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
09-15-2009, 12:06 PM
#27
6th Gear
Join Date: Sep 2009
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The horse is still kicking..!
E3 does not = "cool design" , Design = cool
I think the E3 is a basic leftover design from the old school racer days, when you would trim the ground strap, to get a better angle on the flame kernel.
Here would be a good request, somebody with a dyno handy, and yes people have those now days, dyno shops are everywhere. Try them both, keeping everything the same, no room for objection. NEW NGKs and NEW E3, maybe even throw some Splitfires in the mix, if you can still find them!
E3 does not = "cool design" , Design = cool
I think the E3 is a basic leftover design from the old school racer days, when you would trim the ground strap, to get a better angle on the flame kernel.
Here would be a good request, somebody with a dyno handy, and yes people have those now days, dyno shops are everywhere. Try them both, keeping everything the same, no room for objection. NEW NGKs and NEW E3, maybe even throw some Splitfires in the mix, if you can still find them!
09-15-2009, 12:11 PM
#28
Team Owner
I'm going to be out of a job around here with you around lol.
The simple answer to these multiple spark spark plugs is electicity takes the path of least resistance. You can have 50 electrodes but it's only going to jump to one of them at a time. All the other ones do is shroud the spark which is bad. If you look at FI cars they don't have the traditional ground electrode, the spark jumps from the massively exposed center to the outside edge of the plug. You want that spark out there in the open.
If you're looking to increase performance, buy some stock plugs. Make a mark with a sharpie on the outside of the plug that corresponds with the "open" area of the electrode, where the spark actually jumps. When you insert the plug, you want this open area to face the intake valve. This is called "indexing". It won't give you more than 1 hp at the most but it's free. There are special washers sold of different thicknesses to get the plug to face the direction you want.
No matter what you do, use anti-sieze on the threads.
There is a real advantage to multiple ignition points. This is why Ford is going to a lazer instead of plugs that includes 50-100 small beams that disperse throughout the chamber to make sure every ounce of fuel burns. This is not possible with traditional plugs obviously. Keep in mind the main benefit of this is emissions, not power or economy.
The simple answer to these multiple spark spark plugs is electicity takes the path of least resistance. You can have 50 electrodes but it's only going to jump to one of them at a time. All the other ones do is shroud the spark which is bad. If you look at FI cars they don't have the traditional ground electrode, the spark jumps from the massively exposed center to the outside edge of the plug. You want that spark out there in the open.
If you're looking to increase performance, buy some stock plugs. Make a mark with a sharpie on the outside of the plug that corresponds with the "open" area of the electrode, where the spark actually jumps. When you insert the plug, you want this open area to face the intake valve. This is called "indexing". It won't give you more than 1 hp at the most but it's free. There are special washers sold of different thicknesses to get the plug to face the direction you want.
No matter what you do, use anti-sieze on the threads.
There is a real advantage to multiple ignition points. This is why Ford is going to a lazer instead of plugs that includes 50-100 small beams that disperse throughout the chamber to make sure every ounce of fuel burns. This is not possible with traditional plugs obviously. Keep in mind the main benefit of this is emissions, not power or economy.
09-15-2009, 12:12 PM
#29
Team Owner
i wouldn't run nothing but NGK iridiums...
this whole "more power, better fuel economy" drives me up the wall....lol
power is made with FUEL... so lets consider this for a min...
lets just say the ECU is dumping a certain amount of fuel into ur combustion chamber, and ur plugs are giving you a certain spark, and for arguments sake, lets say that, that amount of fuel isn't fully burning.... so now you got some better plugs, stronger spark. while the ECU is still dumping the same amount of fuel, the "better" plug is enabling full burning on that fuel (assuming the required amount oxygen is there), thus resulting in a bit more power... and this can be completely understandable... but...how can fuel economy increase here?
to MAKE power, you have to burn more fuel, there is NO QUESTIONS ABOUT IT. Making power is done through INDUCTION and INJECTION
there's another thing... RELEASING POWER...that can be a combo of many things...such as accesories, lighter crank pulley, lighter flywheel, lighter wheels, lighter axles, free flowing exhaust, weight reduction.....pretty much anything that would give back the robbed power from the motor. now things like this, would give you better fuel economy for the much increased performance...keep in mind that, your car still needs a certain amount of air/fuel and timing to keep making that stock power, but since the load on the motor has lessened, thus resulting in lighter throttle to move that load than when it had a greater load, which can save gas.
example: lets say it takes half throttle opening to move your car from a stop to 30 mph in 3 seconds, if the car weighted 3500 lbs
it would take less than half of the throttle opening to move the car from 0 to 30 in 3 seconds if the car was 3000 lbs.
OR, you can forget about the fuel economy, and burn the same amount of fuel, meaning with half throttle opening, on the 3000 lbs...but it would move to 30 mph in less than 3 secs
this may seem like some example for kids...but someone else will bump into it....
this whole "more power, better fuel economy" drives me up the wall....lol
power is made with FUEL... so lets consider this for a min...
lets just say the ECU is dumping a certain amount of fuel into ur combustion chamber, and ur plugs are giving you a certain spark, and for arguments sake, lets say that, that amount of fuel isn't fully burning.... so now you got some better plugs, stronger spark. while the ECU is still dumping the same amount of fuel, the "better" plug is enabling full burning on that fuel (assuming the required amount oxygen is there), thus resulting in a bit more power... and this can be completely understandable... but...how can fuel economy increase here?
to MAKE power, you have to burn more fuel, there is NO QUESTIONS ABOUT IT. Making power is done through INDUCTION and INJECTION
there's another thing... RELEASING POWER...that can be a combo of many things...such as accesories, lighter crank pulley, lighter flywheel, lighter wheels, lighter axles, free flowing exhaust, weight reduction.....pretty much anything that would give back the robbed power from the motor. now things like this, would give you better fuel economy for the much increased performance...keep in mind that, your car still needs a certain amount of air/fuel and timing to keep making that stock power, but since the load on the motor has lessened, thus resulting in lighter throttle to move that load than when it had a greater load, which can save gas.
example: lets say it takes half throttle opening to move your car from a stop to 30 mph in 3 seconds, if the car weighted 3500 lbs
it would take less than half of the throttle opening to move the car from 0 to 30 in 3 seconds if the car was 3000 lbs.
OR, you can forget about the fuel economy, and burn the same amount of fuel, meaning with half throttle opening, on the 3000 lbs...but it would move to 30 mph in less than 3 secs
this may seem like some example for kids...but someone else will bump into it....
09-15-2009, 12:13 PM
#30
Team Owner
You must have never bought NGK plugs or else you'd know they have a protective sleeve to keep the ground electrode from being damaged from bumping around.
The technical service manual also states NGK Laser Iridiums (6994) are OE spec and that they are not to be gapped, and although NGK says the the ground electrode may indeed be gapped they also say not to change the gap by more than 0.008" .. (0.004" per 50 hp for FI apps - for you guys thinking of the turbo kit / running CT S/C).
My buddy and I have studied the E3 plug along with Pulstar plugs against NGK Iridiums. The multi sided ground electrode of the E3 does not provide a consistent spark. What we observed was a jump from side to side with the spark being shrouded by the pronged electrode. The Pulstars had a dramatically stronger spark but have proven to be unreliable / fragile. The NGK Iridium's are proven performers and had a consistent spark even at high freqs.
The E3 plug (energy, efficiency, environment / ecology.. blah) is all marketing. It's no better than a standard plug. It's also not the first multi pronged plug in the market and wont be the last. I get disgusted by reading their own page about their "Diamond Fire Technology"
Just look at the differences between the plugs.. it's easy to see that the discharge charactertistics of the iridium single side ground electrode is going to be more efficient than the marketed E3 plug which to me looks like it was designed by marketing / graphic artist. The charge carriers pass the gap of an iridium tip to electrode easily and more efficiently than the E3. Also, E3's graphic showing their "plasma" flow out the tip is ridiculous. Sure you saved a couple bucks, will it last? only time will tell but don't believe the hype.. These plugs aren't going to save the environment while boosting your butt dyno and saving you money at the pump.
The technical service manual also states NGK Laser Iridiums (6994) are OE spec and that they are not to be gapped, and although NGK says the the ground electrode may indeed be gapped they also say not to change the gap by more than 0.008" .. (0.004" per 50 hp for FI apps - for you guys thinking of the turbo kit / running CT S/C).
My buddy and I have studied the E3 plug along with Pulstar plugs against NGK Iridiums. The multi sided ground electrode of the E3 does not provide a consistent spark. What we observed was a jump from side to side with the spark being shrouded by the pronged electrode. The Pulstars had a dramatically stronger spark but have proven to be unreliable / fragile. The NGK Iridium's are proven performers and had a consistent spark even at high freqs.
The E3 plug (energy, efficiency, environment / ecology.. blah) is all marketing. It's no better than a standard plug. It's also not the first multi pronged plug in the market and wont be the last. I get disgusted by reading their own page about their "Diamond Fire Technology"
Just look at the differences between the plugs.. it's easy to see that the discharge charactertistics of the iridium single side ground electrode is going to be more efficient than the marketed E3 plug which to me looks like it was designed by marketing / graphic artist. The charge carriers pass the gap of an iridium tip to electrode easily and more efficiently than the E3. Also, E3's graphic showing their "plasma" flow out the tip is ridiculous. Sure you saved a couple bucks, will it last? only time will tell but don't believe the hype.. These plugs aren't going to save the environment while boosting your butt dyno and saving you money at the pump.
I believe all 3 of these posts were in this thread.
09-15-2009, 12:27 PM
#31
6th Gear
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Wow, it’s great we have some Electrical Engineers, Mechanical Engineers, and maybe even some Physicists making their rounds in the Acura Forums to steer us all strait. I’m sure these guys are the SME’s on Spark Plug design and Engine Dynamics. Words… words…. Too many variables, compare them on the dyno and get real world number on Output and Emissions.
09-15-2009, 12:33 PM
#32
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Wow, it’s great we have some Electrical Engineers, Mechanical Engineers, and maybe even some Physicists making their rounds in the Acura Forums to steer us all strait. I’m sure these guys are the SME’s on Spark Plug design and Engine Dynamics. Words… words…. Too many variables, compare them on the dyno and get real world number on Output and Emissions.
09-15-2009, 12:38 PM
#33
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I Hate Cars - I see you’re using a External Trans cooler, were you running into temp issues, how is your fluid breakdown look now with the added cooling? I used to swear by (still do) an external Oil Cooler, my oil would last forever, 2k+ more miles, before it would start to brown.
09-15-2009, 12:42 PM
#34
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It sound like all you do is write quotes, 2676 quotes, thats 90 a day, get off the computer man!
09-15-2009, 12:49 PM
#35
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
I'm an EE.. therefore I work at a computer unfortunately.. When I'm not working / Azining / I'm working on the cars.. strut swap & ball joints this past weekend, heater control valve & transmission switch swap the previous weekend.. adjusted rear calipers & ATF change the weekend before that.. My buddy is also a gear head and he has all types of projects going on including spark plugs. I've been here for a year not a month.. 7-8 posts a day.. and about 1 post a day for obstinate posters. You my friend get 3.
09-15-2009, 12:56 PM
#36
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sorry, error in calculator punching, good to hear you are a EE, what was your final project?, good to hear that someone with a little schooling is here. I have exceeded my number, that is all for the day....
09-15-2009, 01:14 PM
#37
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Azine 101.. you learn quickly who the knowledgeable & valuable members are here.. some of them being IHC & Opel.. There are many, and these guys take time out of their day to give their insight / experience / advice. So my advice is it would behoove you to use their experience, that doesn't mean you have to be mindless and not think for yourself.
my capstone project involved creating a real-time monitoring gui & network scheme for a solar grid to monitor power & efficiency of each site and develop a searchable database so we could monitor & pull up time avg's over the year. The power company that installed the PV systems did it more for public relations.. they didn't manage the sites so some were down (bad inverters, damaged cells, incorrect wiring to meter) and there was no way to efficiently monitor the sites since there were so many and some of them were remote, therefore we stepped in and got it running for its intended purpose.
09-15-2009, 01:27 PM
#38
Team Owner
I Hate Cars - I see you’re using a External Trans cooler, were you running into temp issues, how is your fluid breakdown look now with the added cooling? I used to swear by (still do) an external Oil Cooler, my oil would last forever, 2k+ more miles, before it would start to brown.
The cooler was installed to make the stock Z1 fluid last. UOAs showed that it quickly oxidized, as early as 20,000 miles. I ended up switching to a synthetic as I researched more and discovered there was nothing magic about this fluid.
I have an external oil cooler on the GN because temps can quickly hit the 300F range. In retrospect, I think a larger 11 quart sump would stop the spikes much better.
For a car like the TL with a much longer life expectancy I would go with a radiator oil cooler just to help heat the oil quicker during the warmup cycle and keep it somewhat reasonable during hard driving.
As for the E3 plugs, there are two main things they have going against them. The spark can only jump one electrode at a time. There's no such thing as multiple sparks. The other is that the additional electrodes shroud the spark from the mixture and the goal is to get an uninterrruped shot at the spark on all sides if possible.
09-22-2009, 02:25 PM
#39
Team Owner
Just realized these are not iridium or platinum, just plain old copper. Have fun trying to push these to the recommended replacement interval.
09-23-2009, 01:17 PM
#40
As for the E3 plugs, there are two main things they have going against them. The spark can only jump one electrode at a time. There's no such thing as multiple sparks. The other is that the additional electrodes shroud the spark from the mixture and the goal is to get an uninterrruped shot at the spark on all sides if possible.