Adoniram

Hello all,

First let me introduce myself: I'm Matt, I live in Fort Worth, TX and I'm a new '07 TL-S owner. This forum looks to be the best in terms of activity and information for TL owners, so I'm happy to join!

Now, onto my question:

I see that the TL has 3 cats... same as my 05 Legacy GT. With my Legacy, I removed 2 of the cats, and replaced the third with a high flow model (in the aftermarket downpipe). I just took the car to get smogged and it passed, no problems.

I'd like to know if there are any known issues passing emissions with PCDs and a high-flow 3rd cat with the TL, or if there are good/bad brands related to this issue.

My first mods are going to be PCDs (if there isn't an emissions issue), J-pipe, high-flow 3rd cat, and CAI. I'll be doing all the exhaust mods at once, so that's why I ask ahead of time.

Thanks for your help and info!


The rides -

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

hey matt. welcome to the forum and congrats on your TL-S.

i'm sure justin will be here any second to answer your questions regarding the performance mods you're considering.

Adoniram

Thanks! Glad to be here.

Justin... this is your queue

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Emissions is directly related to your state and its laws.

with that being said, I passed in houston texas with PCD's and jpipe, which means I am fully catless.
and if you're going for PCD's why not spring for richies v3 jpipe which deletes the 3rd cat already....

it seems pointless to buy two pieces of hardware when one can do the job BETTER.

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

Flipster23

iTrader: (15)

Welcome Matt.

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

wow you guys are lucky....here in CA the standards are so strict im afraid i wont even pass if i got the rv6 v3 jpipe, let alone the PCDs(guaranteed fail)

Flipster23

iTrader: (15)

^ I kno a buddy that was going through that problem..

CA has strict ass laws,

tommypenguin

My response is speculatory so take what I say with a grain of salt pertaining to your emissions in TX. In Colorado, members running their LGT’s with a uppipe gutted or aftermarket catless and running a cobb or invidia high flow catted down pipe would not pass, I read of several failures. Like most on that forum, when it was time for emissions you spend the 30 minutes putting on the stock down pipe with both cats go and pass, then throw your aftermarket dp back on.

In light of your experience and from what I’ve seen from other TX members you could throw on PCD’s and put the stock J pipe on and I would bet money you would pass. Then after passing put on your aftermarket J pipe. IMO it’s easier to put the stock J pipe on the TL than it is to put a stock dp on a LGT. You don’t have that blasted heat shield in your way when removing the o2 sensor in the DP to slow you down, its just 9 bolts and sliding a hanger off on the TL.

In your other thread I saw you are concerned with drone, PCD’s will increase drone and you will likely not be a fan of rasp PCD’s create either. Despite running the stock catback if you run PCDs you will get rasp. Listen to Justnspace’s videos; he’s running pcd’s, catless j pipe and stock catback. In light of your concern regarding exhaust, if I were you I would spend a little more coin and throw on HFPC’s to minimize rasp suppress as much exhaust sound as possible . You may still find it necessary to throw on a long resonator on the stock exhaust to minimize drone and suppress rasp going with HFPCs but you will be better off.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^very nice post.

Adoniram

Justin, the reason I considered an aftermarket j-pipe with a high flow cat (not the j-pipe that eliminates the 3rd cat) is that I'll probably have an easier time of passing emissions tests, and won't have to deal with that smell you get from catless setups. Plus there's the fact that a cat (even a high flow one) will reduce the rasp that would come from a catless setup.

At least, that's what my theory is: You get a relatively high flow exhaust, no (or greatly reduced) rasp, increased likelihood of passing emissions tests, and no smell.

It seems that I'm probably unique in wanting this compromise. Most threads I read and setups I see are all catless, or all high-flow cats. I was just hoping someone had done this before and could post their experience with noise, emissions, etc.

If I can pass emissions without any cats here, I still would want one. I dont want rasp, and I especially don't want that smell. I've done it before and it's just not great. Plus, if a police officer is riding behind me and gets a whiff, I'm betting that's enough reason to pull over for an impromptu inspection. No thanks :p

Bearcat94

Short answer: Yes, but rare.


Long Answer:

I know of one member here (NC) that failed emissions with a 3rd cat delete. It was spotted during visual inspection --> instant fail.

A lot depends on the state and the inspection station.

The 3rd cat has no O2 sensor, so changing or removing it will not throw a code.

This is important because most emission inspections are based on an OBD-II scan, not an actual exhaust "sniffer". Regards removing the 3rd cat ONLY, even a sniffer might not (I'd say probably and I'd be willing to risk it personally) pick it up since you have 2 primaries as the exhaust "header".

The RV6 PCD's include de-foulers to eliminate CEL and codes and therefore also "fool" an OBD-II scan. BUT with PCD's and no 3rd Cat no way you'd pass an exhaust "sniffer".

In most cases the real concern is the one first mentioned: visual inspection. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to spot missing/replaced cats; which is good because most guys working at Billy-Joe's Tire & Lube aren't brain scientists in the first place.


PCD's plus High Flow 3rd cat: If the defoulers are working, you'll pass ODB-II scans. Visual, depends on the tech. Exhaust "sniffer" - .

Also, the 3rd cat is already "high flow" at 350 cells/in. TL-S Primaries are 600 cells/in and TL base primaries are 900 cells/in. http://www.hondanews.com/channels/ac...-tl-powertrain


Finally, (in a non-judgemental way) keep in mind that rendering inoperable or removing emissions equipment is a Federal Offense. Literally.

Adoniram

That was a very informative response and website that you linked

I didn't realized the 3rd cat was so high-flow, but 200 sounds even better to me. The first 2 cats need to go though, and if the PCD's come with defoulers, then I think that's the obvious choice. I really doubt any inspection station is going to be able to visually verify the cat existence regarding the pre-cats... it's pretty tight in there, and I've really never seen anyone get that detailed in a visual inspection. (i'm sure there's a few stories out there, but it's the exception)

Having the 3rd cat as a high-flow still makes it look legal, and I've seen a few that allow for the use of the original heat shields (bonus!)

I think I'll go for it and post my results. It won't be for 3 months though... currently waiting for my house to be finished (and 3-car garage). Once that happens, I can move all my tools out of storage and get to work!

nrb2005tl

i live in cali and have the rv6 v3 j pipe ((( not looking forward to emissions testing, very nervous

I hate cars

If you remove a cat, you won't pass emissions, that's federal so it doesn't matter what state you're in.

The 3rd cat is used for cold starts and not so important during normal driving. The car will pass tailpipe emissions without it, I confirmed this many years ago. Since there is no 02, there will be no check engine light if it's removed.

The car won't pass tailpipe emissions without the precats. It will throw a light unless you use defoulers and even then it can throw a light.

Any part before the cat has to have an EO or CARB number or it's illegal. J-pipes won't affect smog in reality but I would have to guess none of them carry a number so all are illegal. Most of the time they are overlooked.

A "high flow" cat is relative. They're all restrictive especially with all exhaust going through a single cat. At the primaries the precats may be more restrictive but exhaust flow is split in half. The 3rd cat takes the full exhaust flow so it has to be less restrictive. I've run the best high flow cats on my turbo car and it was pointless, the restriction was awful. The only way to have a truly free flowing exhaust with cats is to have at least a dual cat setup (in parallel) which would also be illegal unless the car came that way. My honest opinion is to go catless or go stock.

Bearcat94

- Fixed.

For clarity.







I know CARB = California Air Resource Board, so is the CARB and/or EO number requirement only apply to California? I've never heard of such a thing here and have nver had any issues with "non-CARB" parts.

Adoniram

EO = Executive Order, and only applies to California. I just moved away from there, and am so glad I did! (for a variety of reasons, not just the retarded vehicle laws)

Just a quick correction, the pre-cats are the cold-start-related cats. That's what allowed the TL to meet "CARB LEV-II ULEV."

I passed the sniffer test in TX with my Legacy after removing the cat in the uppipe, and replacing the 2 cats in the downpipe with a single high-flow. Wasn't a problem for me, and hasn't been a problem for most Legacy owners who do the same, but the companies that make those cats might just be really high quality. Either the people here didn't do a visual inspection, or didn't look that close Hopefully the same will hold true for the Acura. I'm willing to pioneer this option.

I hate cars

Nope, it's the 3rd cat that's cold start related until the precats come online.

ngg19

did you pass california emissions with your Third cat removed?

I hate cars

Yep. I had a friend at a smog shop smog it with the cat removed before I committed to gutting it. It made no difference with and without the third cat, the car blew practically zeros across the board. It was only about a year old at the time not that it should matter much.

ngg19

Thanks for your insight. What your thoughts on jpipe that deletes 3rd cat?

Rick_TL-S

This is what worries me. I'm planning on getting the pre-cats & being completely catless, but I don't need to end up failing a sniffer test.

Adoniram

So you think Honda's own media department is wrong in this article?
http://www.hondanews.com/channels/ac...-tl-powertrain

See the part about high-flow exhaust with close-coupled catalyzers.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

would it be the same "you have 15 days to fix this!" kinda deal?
or federal offense since you removed the cats?

I hate cars

What part of that makes you think the 3rd cat is not there for cold starts? I've read all of that stuff before. The 3rd cat is there for the short time before the primaries light off. That's one part that didn't really make that much sense to me either but it was explained that it basically absorbs some of the emissions until everything is hot.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

whats the effect of not having the 3rd cat?

I hate cars

If there's a sniffer involved, you won't pass.

Adoniram

(first off, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to figure out the real purpose of the precats )

This is the part that makes me think that the precats are more for the cold-start emissions:
"By integrating the exhaust manifolds into the cylinder head design, the primary catalysts can be mounted very close to the engine. This ensures quick light off after engine start up, key to meeting the low emissions standard."

My understanding is that the cats need heat to really be efficient. The 3rd cat, being the most high flow and the furthest from the engine, will be the least effective cat and also the last to heat up and work towards cleaning exhaust fumes. In comparison, the precats are much closer and heat up quicker, which leads them to clean the fumes much sooner than the 3rd cat.

UA6

What's the sniffer? Is that the sensor they attach to your tail pipe when you're getting a smog check? So would going completely catless cause that sensor to go off?

Rick_TL-S

I really should find out. I've been told by multiple people on both sides of the argument that there is & isn't a sniffer test done in Texas.

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

^yeah i would def find out first what goes down at your emissions station before you do anything. make an anonymous phone call or something.

no sniffer tests in maryland , otherwise i would have never considered installing the v3 pcd's.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

i'm not a state inspector, but one can only guess from context clues that a sniffer does what its name implies.
lol, yes its a device that hooks up to your exhaust. yes, it will detect emissions. yes, you will not pass if you are catless.

I hate cars

That was my exact question too but I was told that the 3rd cat could "hold" a lot of the emissions until it lit off where the precats allow everything to pass through until they're lit off.

Adoniram

The "sniffer" is a sensor that sits on the end of a 4ft rod. The inspectors stick this rod in your car's muffler like an anal thermometer. Depending on the state, it will be measuring several different things. If I can find one my California test results, I'll post a picture.

In California, they measured for HC (hydrocarbons), CO, CO2, O2, and NO (or some kind of nitrogen/oxygen molecule). Usually they're measuring these things in ppm, which stands for parts per million.

I can't remember what they measured in Colorado, but in Texas it was simply a pass/fail and I have no idea what they measured.

Texas does not have a STATE law requiring emissions testing. However, certain counties in Texas require it, like Tarrant County, which is where you'll find Fort Worth. Unsurprisingly, the counties with the largest cities (like Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, etc) are the ones that require emissions testing. If you live in the country, you'll probably be ok.

Here's a map of the places that require emissions tests in Texas:


and here's the Texas Vehicle Inspection page (where that picture came from):
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/vi/

Well that's an interesting thought... I guess the precats still need to warm up on a cold start, period. Just seems illogical that a higher flow cat could hold more stuff, but maybe it's simply the addition of another one that scrubs it so clean right away. All I know is the emissions tests here are done with a warm engine, therefore any cat should work (precat or otherwise). I'm thinking it's PCDs for me I'm willing to take the risk!

Rick_TL-S

Ah, see I'm in the Rockwall area, so it looks like I do require it.

Looks like I'll just wait til' December to put the test pipes on.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

I'm glad i live in fort bend county.
no tsi testing for me