05TLRIDER

I had my UR stock size pulley installed by a shop yesterday and I've noticed now that I have a pretty severe vibration when VTEC kicks in. Any guesses as to why I'm having this? Any suggestions to fix? I have an 05TL auto, about 74k miles. I haven't reset the ecu yet, but I'm not sure I that will have any effect on the issue I'm having. Anybody else experience this?

pohljm

have not heard of this nor did I experience it with the underdriven pulley

05TLRIDER

I haven't heard of it from anybody else either.

Anybody wanna point Opel or IHC to this thread for some input?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

It was stated by Opel that the stock pulley is a harmonic balancer so it could cause vibrations if that is true.

I've got the stock sized pulley and haven't experienced any vibrations either.

Opel

Resetting ECM doesnt have anything to do with this.
Im assuming you feel the vibrations at a standstill while reving the motor, and not while driving. If this is the case, then its also not related to driving, being that it could be something else from the rest of the drivetrain.

Here's my suggestion...Get the stock pulley back on the car and see if it fixes the problem, This way you can determine whether its from the pulley or something else that went wrong at the same time.

My guess of what may have happened is..they use air guns on every goddamn thing (i hate if they ever attempt tightening my lug nuts with an air gun. I always catch an attitude with them cause of that) So they may have air gunned the shit out of the crank bolt against the pulley which could've resulted in a little deformation. Remember, the pulley is made of Aluminum, and its pretty fragile.
Now I know i'm thinking extremes here, but its a possibility.
Another thing is, the pulley could've been defective to begin with, such as unbalanced.

What KN_TL said about the stock pulley being a harmonic balancer is true. But being that our car has a pretty heavy flywheel which does enough even at the absence of the harmonic balancer so its ok, as long as the aftermarket pulley is balanced down to grams

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Most probably due to what Opel said or maybe it wasn't torqued enough. You will only know when you reverse your steps. Sounds like a big pain in the butt but I wouldn't drive your car too much more till you take care of this.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

What is the vibration like? Is it possible that they put the front wheel off balance or rotated the tires? The pulleys do not cause a vibration. Unless someone damaged your pulley or installed it incorrectly the pulley should not be the issue.

Inaccurate

Good point. Also, if you have aftermarket rims, pull the passenger-side front wheel. Check to see if your concentric ring is missing.

Opel

anyone reading? helloooo lol
he hasn't clarified whether its from reving the motor, or while driving, yet.
untill then, it could even be a rock stuck in his tire treads lol.
but he mentioned when vtec engages, which makes me think it isn't related to while driving.
wheel/tire vibration would happen at a certain speed, no matter what rpm.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

If he said it occurs when VTEC engages it must be while driving. You can't free rev the TL and engage VTEC.

Opel

Why can't you? Motor can't free rev past 5500 RPM, Vtec engagement happens at 4700 (4750) RPM.

05TLRIDER

Sorry guys, been away from the forums for a couple days, you know the holiday and all. Yes, it's when I'm driving opel. I feel a vibration through everything in the car around 4500 rpms, but it's gone around 5000. It doesn't feel like a good vibration either. It's hard to describe actually, but I know that when vtec kicks in the car doesn't seem to pull at all. Does vtec rely on the weight of the pulley in any way? I don't have aftermarket rims either and I looked back at one point and noticed they didn't have the wheel off either. I'll have to try and get back to the shop sometime this week and have them swap it out for the factory pulley unless there's another guess.

Opel

Ok, now we're talking.
So it happens while you drive, and it happens at 4500, through 5000 and its gone after 5k. I don't see this as anything being in relation to Vtec. Its just that, the RPM it happens at, makes it seem like its related to vtec.
There's nothing to do between crank pulley and vtec. (unless you have a vtec issue completely unrelated to the pulley)
Im expecting a balancing issue with the pulley. I dont know how they pulled this, what kinda tools they used and what not. They may have even damaged the pulley or it could've been defective to begin with. Or something else went wrong with the car. But happened as you got the pulley installed.

So at this point your first shot as a solution is re-installing the stock pulley, and take it from there. That will help you determine whether the UR pulley is good or bad.

I don't know if youve done this or not, but try reving the car at a stand still, as high as it goes (you prob have), and see if you feel any vibration from the motor. This would help determine that the symptoms are there only when the car is under load (driving). Also, do you feel vibration if you rode the gear, for example at 4700 rpm steadily, or does it vibrate only while you're climbing (accelerating) through your rpm.

There could be another issue. Being that the stock crank pulley is a harmonic balancer, it pretty much does what it says. There could be some issues with your torque converter, which may have not been noticeable while you had your stock pulley, since it helps reduce and balance shock and vibration through crank and tranny (along with flywheel)..and now with the harmonic balancer pulley gone, and a 2 lbs pulley taking its place, torque converter symptoms can be a bit more noticeable.

Now, I didn't mean to scare you. What I said in the last paragraph is kinda extreme, but not out of this world either. Just be prepared

But Im pretty sure, its only the pulley that's messed up. So let us know what ya find. Goodluck!

05TLRIDER

A little more info for you opel. Took it out this morning and checked a few things for you. No vibration through the entire rpm range while the vehicle is in park or neutral. Using ss mod there was no vibration in first, really bad in second around 4700 and not so bad in third at 4700 rpms. Vibration is gone at higher rpms in all gears. I won't be able to get to the shop until tomorrow at the eariest. What could be bad on the torque converter?

Tripnbeats

the torque converter itself.... its a sealed unit so its the whole thing that would be shot. have u checked your motor mounts? like actually taken them off the car to make sure they arent broken? I can see a badly balanced pulley being the issue here.....did the mechanic install it bck on the car properly with the washers where they are supposed to go and the torque spec where its supposed to be??also i hope it was seated on the crank properly.... those things would throw it off at higher rpm. also check your upper n lower tranny mounts.

Opel

you can't really install the pulley in a wrong way. its too simple. Held in place by a washered bolt (washer doesnt come off the bolt) . all it gotta really be is tight, (it gets tighter when it spins) ..ive worked on this pulley more than i cared to..its really simple.

at this point, just swap it out with the stock one, and continue from there. that will tell you a lot on which direction to go from there. Im not gonna keep point at too many things until u do this. It could be tranny issues too. or a stupid bad axles.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Was the pulley torqued correctly? a lot of 2nd rank shops may not know the proper specs... a lot of car's pulleys are torqued around 80-110lb/ft

The 3G TL Pulley needs to be torqued to 181 or 188 lb/ft (cant remember which) but a lot more than the usual car

Opel

and again, that in no way would have the effect to cause what he's dealing with....u torque it so it doesnt come off and fly out. you can hand tighten it, with a power bar, and its plenty...run the car, and i guarantee you, when u go to take it out again, its going to be very hard.

if its torqued at 100 lbs, it isn't gonna change anything if spec says 180 lbs...

on this aluminum pulley, tightening the living shit out of it is gonna hurt, and if you go like a mad man and torque it like there's no tomorrow with a 800 lbs gun, u might even deform it.

the bolt is also lock washered!

05TLRIDER

Well the shop guys are being total dicks about swapping the pulley back out, and they can't get me back in until tomorrow afternoon. I guess stay tuned until then.....


Thanks for your help on this Opel! I do have another (out there) question though....what do you think the likelyhood of them damaging the crank itself during the install was? I assume it's a pretty rigid piece of steel considering the normal stresses it undergoes, but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask.

SatinSilverAV6

iTrader: (2)

correct me if i am wrong but the stock crank pulley IS NOT a harmonic balancer. The J series engines have a internal Harmonic balancer.

SatinSilverAV6

iTrader: (2)

It is likely that they might have damaged the crank itself. You might want the dealer to look at it to give you an expert opinion if you don't mind spending the money! It might be worth it just to have peace of mind. The place you took it to sure as hell isn't going to tell you if they damaged something. They sound like a bunch of novices to me. Good luck sir!

Tripnbeats

the pulley is the harmonic balancer its rubber and metal.... flexes under big load and "balances" the vibrations from the crank.

Inaccurate

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Tripnbeats

hahahhahahaha old school images!! great!

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I'm not going to go into detail about this subject b/c there are plenty of topics on it but the factory pulley is NOT a harmonic balancer. In fact, there is no such thing as a harmonic balancer. The factory pulley has a rubber ring (elastomer) built into it to reduce noise and vibration associated with the accessory components but it is not designed to balance or absorb crank vibrations.

Tripnbeats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_balancer

i know wiki is a bad reference but anything i click on gives me the same results....ive always understood that in the newer cars (especially imports) the crankshaft pulley is the harmonic balancer because of the rubber that reduces bad crankshaft resonant vibrations

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I know we are straying off topic here and I don't remember if it was asked.

But if the stock pulley isn't a harmonic balancer, why is there so much mass to it?

I'm thinking of putting mine back on the more I think about it.

Maddizm

iTrader: (5)

^ wondering about that too... you know with the turbo and all.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

The pulley is a harmonic damper, not a balancer. The motor is internally balanced. Old school American V8 motors required external balancers, but even then they weren't harmonic balancers. The pulley is a damper though b/c as I said it dampens noise from the accessory system, even though replacing the original pulley with the UR pulley doesn't add to any additional vibration. In fact, most ppl find the vehicle runs smoother.

It's just like anything on the car, why did Acura put so many different parts of the air box, such a restrictive j-pipe, such poor and undersized brakes? It's just a heavy steel pulley (aluminum would have cost more). Also the 09 TL's have a 5 lb pulley, down 2-3 lbs from the 3rd gen pulley. Obviously, Acura realized there must be some advantage to a lighter pulley.

Tripnbeats

Ah haaa!!

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Yeah. I'm not sure if I completely agree with what Josh is saying. If it were cost savings, then even using less iron would save them money. Not sure how different 4G motors are to 3G, only Honda really knows. On the other hand, I didn't feel any additional vibrations and the motor did feel less jerky.

I am going to try both stock and UR after I install my kit and will decide then which one to keep.

If the whole clutch situation clears up, I may end up with a lightweight FW so the choice will be made for me.

Tripnbeats

it is cost savings. they even saved money on the new pulley by shaving weight on it. the only difference in 3g and 4g motors is the AWD 3.7 motor...actually just the pistons were modified maybe the cams n valves as well....but the 3.5 in the base model is the same motor, top to bottom as the 07-08 type s

05TLRIDER

As Josh said, the topic of harmonic balancer, internally balanced engines and harmonic dampner have been covered probably 1,567,348,925,168,124,638,410 times on this forum!!!! I don't want this debate here again! If you want answers please use the nice "SEARCH" feature our forums have!



One response to you Josh, I have noticed my engine seems to run smoother at lower rpms....I just can't figure out the vibration I get between 4500 and 5000. The pulley is getting swapped back out at 5 today, so I'll update later tonight what happens. If I don't have the vibration with the stock pulley what do I do about replacing the UR pulley? Is that something you can help with or should I go to UR directly?


Maybe I should try convincing Opel to switch cars with me and he can just duplicate everything he's done to his on mine......it would save me the headache anyways....

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Can you produce written documented proof that this is the case?

Search is only going to give me differing opinions with no real proof of either being true.

No offense to Josh but he's trying to sell a part here so I take that with a little skepticism itself. Same goes with UR.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

I don't see how its possible to have the vibration with the pulley, even if it was, than the shop installed it incorrectly somehow. But we'll see today

SatinSilverAV6

iTrader: (2)

AHAHAHA!!!! I was right! I knew it!

05TLRIDER

Yeah, I wish I knew enough to say one way or the other. I hate to say it, but isn't the pulley install idiot proof....only way they could have damaged it is as Opel said cranking on it with an impact. Only reason I didn't do the install is that I couldn't get the nut to break loose on it....I was bending breaker bars trying Honestly I hope it's the pulley and not something else like Opel was guessing at.

JS08TLS

The car must be moving for Vtec to engage, yes it can rev freely but the speed sensor is still reading 0 mph which is a factor in Vtec engagement.

Opel

really? so now vtec is engaged at a certain speed?

Opel

Sorry 05TLRIDER....I just simply couldn't resist..

Ill keep this short and sweet...

Crank is balanced, to some degree..factory that is! Meaning, to reliably handle 7000 RPM.
All this below has nothing to do with the crank being balanced. I mean, if the crank wasn't balanced, you'd feel like you're driving a tractor by the vibrations it would cause.

All these crank pulley terms, Harmonic damper, Harmonic balancer, are not right.
Its called "Torsional" dampener
Its critical role is pretty much to cancel any vibrations of the crank which are caused by crank twist that's transfered to the crank at every power stroke from each cylinder.
These are in a form of rhythmic vibrations, and they're canceled out by that heavy metal hub attached to the rubber in the crank pulley (whoever has seen and paid attention to one).

Each one is designed to certain specs to help cancer harmonic vibrations based on crank strength, and its limit to power stroke twists.
Sometimes extra weight is added to the pulley simply to help out on balancing the crank itself, due to the fact that more weight may have not been able to be added to the crank counterweights. Without this, sometimes at a certain rpm, or point in time, or even with more power which comes with much harsher power strokes, you could reach a threshold of the cranks ability to resist twisting based on the material its made, resulting in catastrophic endings, such as: shearing of bolts and having a flywheel fly through the hood, blowing apart your PP and shattering a trannny housing, crank pulley itself flying into the radiator or through the firewall, enough vibrations with it to snap a timing belt resulting in blown apart valvetrain components, pistons, as well as snapping a rod and sending it through the block etc...I'm sure you got the picture by now!

But don't let this get to you and stop you from modding your car, or having an aftermarket pulley installed in your TL . Heck I've done all kinds of reckless shit on my car, and thankfully nothing's happened lol.
Discouraging you isn't my priority.
Just take this as educational info
I have never ever heard a case where a UR pulley destroyed someone's car, so by all means, get a UR pulley! It will free up some HP

And btw, for what its worth, I don't have an aftermarket pulley