OntheJob

reading this post and here is the question I have.

Are we being too quick to disregard the fact that at the end of that intake there is a better breathing filter and more times then not a larger intake tube then stock helping the car breathe much better producing the numbers?

try breathing through a drinking straw and then repeat it with a toilet paper roll, more air....

Now we all know the stock paper air filters are good, but there are better breathing filters out there.
-look at the end of every single turbo out there, what do you see?????????????? an after market filter, not a stock paper one. THINK ABOUT IT.

Now Im not sure why this particular forum is so divided on intakes but obviously the guy dyno'ed it and has proof which is FACT.

Now we can split hairs and say well maybe the stock filter was dirty... WHICH COULD BE VERY VERY TRUE, HOWEVER THAT DOES NOT ERASE THE FACT THAT HIS CAR STILL HAS MORE POWER "NOW" THEN BEFORE. SO EITHER WAY HE MADE POWER.


So many people around here have cars with intakes and lots with dyno charts proving the power added... but think of this... has anyone proved or posted a chart on here with a CAI showing OVERALL loss in power throughout the power band..IF SO SHOW ME AND I WILL NEVER EVEN THINK ABOUT BUYING AN INTAKE FOR MY CAR.

IM NOT FANNING FLAMES, Im just trying to point out that I think a lot of people on here are forgetting about the basics, a better breathing filter gives gains...... and is the same reason we put better breathing pre-cat deletes, and J-Pipes, and exhausts on our beloved cars ...... I have to respectfully say I disagree.... I mean do you see or at least understand my train of thought? and whats yours on the matter? I really want to break this down......

"I HATE CARS" please help me with this cause now after joining this forum I have never been so torn about an intake :shakeshead:

WhiteBB2

iTrader: (1)

This thread pisses me off...

After many many many years of hanging around car threads, I have never seen something like the users are saying here.

I guess there will always be something with each thread posted.

Typically you have a 'ricer' that puts a huge wing on top of his hatchback, a folgers coffee can muffler, 13 stickers and a CAI on his car and says "Dude, I got 34 WHP with these mods..." The typical response to this guy is "No you didn't. Take it to the dyno and see what it gave you!"

However this thread is posted with PROOF of gains. I am not saying that I agree or disagree with these gains.

What I am saying:

1. He has dynos as proof.
2. Maybe there was something wrong with his car before the CAI install.

But we can not always bash someone for taking the time to post FACTS. Someone said "the only way to see what you really gained is to take it to the track" - I call BS on this statement! You run your car down the track and then let me run your car down the track - Betcha we get different results - EVERYTIME!

I HATE CARS - I am not discrediting you in anyway - However; YES - Factories leave TONS of power restricted in STOCK cars. This is why a good tune, even on a stock setup, reveal nice gains.

All I have to say is if there is proof and the dude took the time to get the results dynoed - GREAT JOB on the gains...I wish mine would gain this much but I don't care enough to dyno to see results.

/thread

OntheJob

I agree with you....and I was starting to think I was the only one on here with common sense... FACT IS FACT, THE DYNO PROVED AND REVEALED THAT FOR HIM. The 10-15 hp he gained was no imaginary power,

he had X power before, and Y power after, very clearly the car made more power after the mod. simple as that... and I also agree that I have never seen a forum filled with such I dont know if there is even a word for it.......... ambivalence, its sad that there could be this much skepticism in the face OF FACT. I wonder if all these people are this skeptical with everything else in their lives... I mean gosh how could you even get a date or be in a relationship with a girl with a mind frame like that is beyond me.

all I say is were all entilted to our own opinions and thats why god, and the good ol USA is great. But if I want to pull the most power out of my S motor, I know what Ill be bolting on, goes to show you....... you can only lead the horse to water

WhiteBB2

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't expect these gains with a basic bolt on mod. This case is the "1 in a 100" chance of gains like this.

OntheJob

correct and I was not assuming all CAI for that matter are or will give you such a gain, however there WILL be some sort of gain because of the better breathing filter and larger pipe the car is now breathing out of...to each his own.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

You're a genius! Is it ok if I use a paper towel roll or would that be too long?

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Huh?

We're talking about trap speed here, not different ET's with different drivers. Nobody said anything about having different people drive the car, although it wouldn't matter much since trap speed will remain relatively static from driver to driver; it's the ET that will vary greatly. Trap speed is just as effective, if not more so than any dyno when it comes to measuring a car's power to weight ratio.

OntheJob

Thats called an analogy, your patronizing adds nothing to the conversation and friendly debate, be gone troll.

OntheJob

"Relatively"??????? over FACT ...... so your saying the possible variables and inconsistent data and info gathered by sending your car down the track and going off TRAP SPEEDS is what you prefer over FACT AND REAL HARD EVIDENCE DATA from a dyno.... hahahhaah you make me laugh.

And where not talking about power to weight ratios.. were talking about power gained or lost after a modification... very simple... the only way to get hard evidence to KNOW for sure, is not by your butt or a number from the local drag strip..... again how many people on this forum dont understand the simple difference and meaning of FACT OVER OPINION.

"hey they dyno says you got 20 HP from that mod, but its probably imaginary or due to the fact that your hood was open, or maybe it was close, or maybe you had a dirty filter, or maybe this or maybe that"

imbeciles, realize the dyno tells you for sure whether you made or lost power..... not your butt. If thats still not good enough then all your other methods def are discredited because the variables, and margins for error are much great then the direct info of a dyno.

Not to mention but I think its funny this whole forum gets up in arms and looses its common sense when it comes to intakes and the power that has been proven to be made they all say " oh no, cant be, there are variables I am sure we dont know about, those cant be real yada yada yada" BUT WHEN SOME ONE BOASTS ABOUT A PRE CAT DELETE, OR AND J PIPE, OR EXHAUST EVERYONE BOWS AND AAAAAAAHHHHHSSSSSS AND DOSENT QUESTION A THING.
Are these pre cat deletes and exhausts special? are they magical? did jack get them from the magic bean stalk that only allows these few parts to be the only ones allowed to and accepted to make real power on a dyno and everyone agrees, leaving the poor lonely intake all sad and alone as an out cast and not as magical???

can we get jack to get us a magical intake from the bean stalk too so that way it can be as magical and the power it makes can be accepted too????? GREAT SCOTT I GOT IT MAN!!!!!!!! Ill tell santa!!!!

WhiteBB2

iTrader: (1)

Ok, Lets think this thru.

- I am going to go to a local track.
- Line my TL against a local ricer civic.
- I am going to make a pass and get a trap speed of xxx...
- I am going to wait 30-60 minutes for another pass.(at least this is how my local track is...)
- The climate is going to change making different air mass
and the car will react differently to these changes.
- The changes in the climate between repeat passes will your engines performance, therefore not giving an accurate reading of the cars performance gains...

Am I wrong with my thoughts and theory?

Maybe - Maybe Not.

Either way - To ME the DYNO is a more accurate way to meassure WHP gains and losses.

I didn't come into this thread trying to discredit anyones thoughts or opinions...I came in here because someone provided FACTS which normally is what "internet bully's" claim that they need to see to believe something.

He provided the dynos for us to see...we see them...they increased by the numbers he said - Therefore; His car gained the above WHP from the AEM CAI!

OntheJob

Bro honestly, there is a saying that has helped me lately.... "dont argue with idiots."

Its apparent there are a lot of older professional guys on here who just drive a tl and have no common sense or knowledge about anything like fact vs opinion, or the accuracy of dyno information vs sending your car down the strip hoping for a good trap speed which is filled and affected by variables like traction, 60 foot times, shifting points, etc.

Do what I did, go through this thread, find the idiots and add them to the list of people to take no advice and not listen to them what so ever, even about changing a light bulb.

I hate cars

The track is real life with the hood down and the car injesting air the way it would on the street. A CAI won't show it's benefits on the dyno because the hood is open. So you can have an open air filter in the hot engine bay and it will make no difference on the dyno with the hood open.

The climate changes you mention happen on the dyno just the same. It takes more than 30 minutes to install a CAI.

Dynos calculate hp from torque vs rpm. Torque is measured by accelerating a drum. There is room for error in the dyno calibration and about 20 other things in the setup. Running the car down the track is real life. The trap speed is unaffected by things such as loading and calibration of the dyno.

What are you going to believe, a machine that shows you gained 20hp from a CAI or a run down the track that shows 0 change in trap speed? How the car performs in real life is the bottom line on hp.

OntheJob

but isnt trap speed affected by 60 foot times, traction, if you shift early or to late... etc... your still not proving how a trap speed tells you power... lol

also... CAI filters are not in the engine bay ... so having the hood open or closed makes no freaking difference... if it was a SHORT RAM I would totally agree with you...

but when I build my own CAI to save money DIY, again hence my signature... I will dyno it with the hood closed so that you can then accept the information it provides whether power lost or gained.

I hate cars

Trap speed is unaffected by traction, 60' times (which is traction) and very little influence by shift points. I mean, how hard is it to shift at the correct time? The only factors that influence trap speed is hp and weight.

You need to take a step back and realize you don't know everything before bashing others. I've got so many dynos vs track times and the two don't always agree. The speed the car is going through the traps is the bottom line. The variables on the dyno are endless. I have a friend that dynos 198hp every single time and runs 11s in a full weight Talon. My friend's GN only dynos 518rwhp and runs deep into the 9s. It's the loose goose 4,500rpm convertor and the inability of the dyno to properly load it that causes the issues. Do I believe the GN only makes 518hp when it requires a minimum of 650hp to go 9s or do I believe my own eyes? I would not care if my car made 200hp as long as it ran bottom 10s. Real life vs a calculation.

I hate cars

Traction has no effect on trap speed. I've gotten a 3.6 second 60' by doing a nearly 1/8 mile burnout and no change in traps. Trap speed is a function of power and weight. Traction makes no difference.

That's my whole point. You can dyno a CAI, stock, or SRI with the hood open and they will all make the same power. Put the hood down and take it out on the street and the CAI will make more power. Or stated another way, the CAI will retain the same power it made on the dyno and the SRI will start to lose power as the engine bay becomes heat soaked.
Now this would be a valid test. Dyno with the hood closed and let the CAI work. Just make sure you do the before test with the hood closed too or you won't see a difference.

Don't waste your time with the design. All you need is a 2.5" piece of pipe or larger and a filter to stick on the end. There is no tuning after the TB.

OntheJob

1. I DONT KNOW EVERYTHING, THATS WHY IM ON HERE. just to clear the air.
2. this whole trap speed thing although I still disagree about its accuracy since you even said shifting has "little effect" but theres still effect which does not make it accurate.

The main point and stance Im making along with others are the fact that this guy dynoed his car and made power with an intake that has a better filter, but others are so quick to discredit it.
I mean a dyno is a very valuable tool, and I think the majority of the people on here with no experience in cars expect buy them and turn them on and put gas in them, know nothing of the difference, and like to take an OPINION based stance that theres no way he could have received those gains in the face of FACT of a dyno sheet thats all im saying......

OntheJob

totally agree with what you just said.. and yes I WILL do this test and write up once I get off my arse to measure the size of the TL-S throttle body and actually make the intake.. and to make sure all the variable are the same I will do a few dynos stock with hood closed and the same with the CAI... I cant WAIT to see the results and get back to everyone on here to finally put a nail in the coffin of this dreaded stance on this forum about intakes.

would you know the opening size of our throttle bodies? to save me the measuring time

WhiteBB2

iTrader: (1)

Other way would have been to close the hood and put a fan in front of the car - prolly yield the same results....

Most dynos are inside a garage / shop therefore keeping a more consistant climate than an outdoor track...

Trap speeds are a far less affective way to measure gains - much more room for inconsistancies....dynos have to maintain certification to stay operable.

I agree with you 100%...but he didnt say the trap speeds were improved or not...which doesnt matter.

What does matter are the dyno sheets that he provided showing HIS results...don't believe them? Pay for another dyno at the shop of your choice...

OntheJob

well I was poking around on the net looking for aluminum piping with some luck, but then stumbled across summit racings site that has some piping I can utilize...

You may have a laugh at this but I strolled through lowes and considered a nicely curved piece of pvc piping.... there was some electrical pvc piping with a perfect curvature to it, but its ridiculously heavy.. which is why I may go the aluminum route with lots of heat wrap and position the filter in the top of the fender so give added water lock protection for extra insurance.

your thoughts?

I hate cars

There are far more variables with a dyno than running the car down the track and looking for trap speed. If you're watching ET, traction plays a HUGE role in times but nothing for trap speeds.

Shift points can make a small difference but usually not more than 1mph. As long as the car is shifted roughly the same before and after it makes no difference.

The inlet tract on the TL is invisible to the engine. I've measured vacuum between the TB and filter and there's nothing to measure. The OEM is not going to leave 20hp on the table when all they had to do is specify a slightly larger filter or larger tubing for about the same price. The inlet tract poses no restriction to the engine in stock form. As you do more mods to increase the airflow, at some point the inlet tract becomes a restriction but you would need serious mods like cams and ported heads.

The TL-S uses a slightly smaller filter even though it uses a larger engine that flows more air. Think about that for a second.

Turbo engines (as you brought up earlier) have different requirments than NA engines.

At 14.7psi boost you're flowing double the air of the same engine without boost so the requirements are much greater.

A restriction pre-turbo presents many more issues and costs much more power than NA at the same power level. The turbo has to work harder which increases exhaust backpressure and causes a greater pressure differential which heats up the charge air more. So basically you're looking at hotter air getting into the engine along with more backpressre. You can see how this can really affect power more than just a little restrcitoin on a NA engine. It hurts spool times which is very important on the street and can damage seals if it's too great. Putting the largest filter possible even if it's overkill is what you want to do on a turbo car.

WhiteBB2

iTrader: (1)

Save the time / headache / hassle of making your own. Buy an eBay CAI - Change the filter to a K&N filter and enjoy the results.

OntheJob

Good info and noted.

OntheJob

hmmm good option.. I could always hack saw the pipe to manipulate it to the angles needed....... you sir rock... if you were here this would be real and on my tab.

Ill compare prices now to see if its the cheapest route including the shipping costs and such.

The only reason I may not go this route is if I cant find one in a 3 inch diameter... thats right Im gonna put a big boy on my car.... lots of air. Then test the results.

I hate cars

Not at all. A fan blowing at the car with the hood down will yeild much different results than having the hood up. Think about this. If what you say is true, why is there a market for a CAI in the first place. After all, driving down the street at 30mph is the equivalent of the big fan in front of the car so if all you have to do is drive the car down the street to get the same results, all CAIs would be worthless. Look at all of the threads on keeping the underhood area cool. Look at the UCM that people are doing. Very little cold air gets into the engine bay. It has to pass through the 200 degree radiator first.
Not even close. Unless air density is controlled inside the shop which is impossible you have the same climate variations indoors or out, not to mention I haven't seen a shop with a closed door doing a dyno run ever. If this were true, dynos would not have an air density correction.

Nope. Traps speeds are real life and much, much more accurate. How can you argue if the car picks up a few mph or loses a few mph? The track is real life results with most of the variables taken out. There are only a couple variables and they're very minor. Dynos have about 20 variables that can throw them off including operator error. I know for a fact becasue I know the guy that would provide false readings for customers that bought his parts from his speed shop next door just to show gains.

I've made hundreds of passes down the strip in various cars and your argument is just not true.
Plenty before after dynos have been done and none have ever showed half his gains. You want to believe so bad that you can get these kinds of gains from a CAI but ignoring common sense will not get you more power. I can literaly show you a sheet of my stock 5at making 230whp from a few tweaks of the dyno. Would you believe it?

What about the base numbers being so incredibly low. Did you forget about this? Looks like a dyno operator playing games to show good gains to me.

What it comes down to is are you going to be more happy that the dyno showed a 20hp increase or if the car actually traps 2mph faster?

WhiteBB2

iTrader: (1)

There was an option for the civic / integra crew called the "whale penis" intake.

Could always try to mock something like this:

OntheJob

I thought about that but then I would be sucking the hot air since its a short ram... I am going to go with a velocity stack at the end of the 3 inch CAI piping I use with a velocity stack filter..... I and seen some good results with that.

Thanks for the alternative though.

I hate cars

That's exactly what I did on the race car. My CAI is a bunch of Home Depot 5" sewer plumbing for about $25.

All you need to do is get the inlet out of the engine bay to get the benefits. Once you do that I would do as you plan on doing. Get it up high and out of the way of water.

Some people heat wrap. It can't hurt anything but you have air flowing through there so quickly that it does not have a whole lot of time to transfer heat from the piping. I chalk it up to personal preference and it can't hurt anything.

Make sure to leave a 3/8" water drain hole at a low point in the system. It won't cost any hp but if any water gets in, it has a way to get out.

One really neat system I had a long time ago was made by Kenne-Bell. It was 5" tubing that brought air into a K&N under the hood. It had a fiberglass housing that loosely enclosed the 9" cone filter. There was some slop near the back of the filter and housing along with a water drain channel. Any water that got sucked up would be blown out past the filter. Pretty much imposible to hydro lock.

OntheJob

Im not following where this "hole should be" expand on that if you have time..

I hate cars

Just a small hole near a low spot at the bottom of the tubing for water drainage. If you system is uphill from the inlet all the way to the engine it's unnecessary. It's very hard to hydrolock an engine anyway.

Edit: I take that back, I'm thinking of the systems with the filters in the stockish location. I must be getting old. Don't put a hole in the CAI after the filter lol.

WhiteBB2

iTrader: (1)

Nice edit...I was gonna say "NO!" LOL...

I hate cars

Yeah, that didn't sound right when I was writing it and then it hit me. I was just leaving the house and turned around to fix it lol.

OntheJob

Nice, finding a 3 inch diameter for what Im looking for is a little tougher then expected... lots of 2.5 inch though... I wonder if the extra .5 in overall diameter will give me better results by flowing larger air mass.... your thoughts?

I hate cars

It depends on the airflow requirements and length of the tubing..... I know that's the ultra generic answer lol.

I would do the 3" since the inlet to the throttlebody is 67mm (at least it on the TL-S). The throttlebody should be the restriction to the inlet system and nothing pre-TB should pose a restriction.

OntheJob

yeah I think the 3 inch is gonna be my route of choice for piece of mind... Im getting excited about the build/test with results... Im hoping of an actual gain even if its marginal a 2-5 horsepower, with the little money involved that could potentially rival mods like the crank pully or TB spacer in the "bang for buck" category.....

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I bought mill finished aluminum tubing and fittings at vericiousmotorsports.com

If you look for intercooler piping, that will do the trick.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

We're not bashing him, we're bashing the intake/dyno because the gains are unrealistic. Even most tunes wouldn't yield that much unless if its F/I. Our cars intake isn't restricted as much as say a Mustang is. So the gains are somewhere in the ballpark of 4-6 WHP. In my opinion I think something was interfering with the dyno, not sure what though. It's almost physically impossible to yield that much HP from a intake unless its turboed.

OntheJob

i agree with this

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

You need to stop coming off like a dickhead, first off.

I happen to know what an analogy is, and it just proves the point that an intake can't have as drastic an effect as was stated here. A person can ingest all the air they'll ever need through a straw to keep their heart beating just fine. They're not going to breathe any better or increase their lung capacity any more by breathing through a toilet paper roll or a 50 gallon drum for that matter. There comes a point of diminishing returns. All CAI's have a filter that can flow way more air than any little N/A V6 can ever use, and furthermore the OEM intake on the TL is already pretty free flowing as it is.

And as far as the MPH vs dyno theory, believe what you will, but traction, shifting, etc have zero effect on trap speed. And you state the trap will vary due to changes in atmospheric conditions, but do you realize the dyno reading is going to be affected by the same changes?

OntheJob

wow, well glad to know how you feel, dont forget that the tone and meaning cant be interpreted while reading.... its something you assume so I guess shame on you.

TLOHTL

Ihatecars and a few others that have posted on this topic...there are no words to describe you guys.

THE STOCK INTAKE IS VERY VERY POORLY DESIGNED!

HOOD UP HOOD DOWN? ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Multiple pulls were done b4 intake install and multiple after.
I got the gains that I got.... END OF STORY!