Acura TL Type S turbo kit build and install for spade0968 by jandr
07-28-2011, 04:52 PM
#121
Car will be tuned for 420-440 whp what we will be testing is capability to brake boost and if all works well ,and everything goes according to plan we will ask spade if we can go to the track for a few pulls and pick up from where libert left off as he made the effort back a few months in nj .......
Let me know if you want to use the Drag Radials.
The following users liked this post:
spade0698 (08-09-2011)
08-09-2011, 06:58 PM
#128
Instructor
Update: We have encountered a setback during the last dyno. For some reason during the last dyno pull at 14 PSI of boost we blew a ring or a seal. The car produced 432HP and a whole lot of torque. Rodney will provide the details of the incident and what occurred. I have uploaded some dyno videos. Sorry in advance for the camera focus on dyno numbers. This is just a minor setback and sometimes things happen but Rodney is working diligently in getting the car back up and running. Stay Tuned.......
http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/...0Turbo%20Dyno/
http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/...0Turbo%20Dyno/
Last edited by spade0698; 08-09-2011 at 07:08 PM.
08-09-2011, 08:16 PM
#130
Instructor
Yeah, I just talked to pass427 and he thinks it has something to do with the torque converter. He and the tuner thinks the engine is putting out 20% more than what the dyno is reading. Pass427 will add his comments soon....
08-09-2011, 08:22 PM
#131
Might as well let the cat out of the bag. It seems that the 5at is experiencing serious drive train loss at these power levels. By serious we mean in the neighborhood of almost 100whp.
14psi with 16 degrees should net somewhere around 520-530whp. These already proven numbers come from the same motor (but different car) with the JandR ecu on the 6MT.
So if Spade's car is losing close to 100whp at the crank, the motor is still seeing 500+hp which is getting close to limits of the stock motor.
Boom, a ring fails and the car is acting EXACTLY like my car was when I cracked a ring. Sputtering/rough idle.
14psi with 16 degrees should net somewhere around 520-530whp. These already proven numbers come from the same motor (but different car) with the JandR ecu on the 6MT.
So if Spade's car is losing close to 100whp at the crank, the motor is still seeing 500+hp which is getting close to limits of the stock motor.
Boom, a ring fails and the car is acting EXACTLY like my car was when I cracked a ring. Sputtering/rough idle.
08-09-2011, 10:58 PM
#132
Safety Car
Bert,
How is your build coming along?
Do you have any work-arounds to deal with this 5AT limitation? 6MT swap? AccurateIn did a 5AT to 6MT swap...... he purchased a 6MT car and migrated his performance parts over from his 5AT car to the 6MT car.
How is your build coming along?
Do you have any work-arounds to deal with this 5AT limitation? 6MT swap? AccurateIn did a 5AT to 6MT swap...... he purchased a 6MT car and migrated his performance parts over from his 5AT car to the 6MT car.
08-09-2011, 11:38 PM
#133
It was coming along great. The pistons started going in the block and 2 out of 6 have incorrect wrist pin locations. No idea how this happened. They were sent back last week to get everything sorted out. Once they come back its 3 days to build the motor and 2-3 days to swap motors and tune.
I started looking for used torque converters but Ive had no luck. A new converter is 650$. I was thinking about sending a spare converter to a shop and have them beef/build/modify whatever needs to be done to the converter to handle the power. Im not worried about the actual hard parts in the trans at this point. Im not even worried about the clutch packs either.
Ive been looking for 6sp trans on ebay and junkyards for a long time actually. But a complete 5at to 6mt swap with at the minimum JandR's twin disc clutch is around another 5,000$ easy. I would rather try a upgraded tq converter first for a much cheaper alternative.
After hearing about spade's incident, it really got me thinking about my car when it hit the dyno making 408whp. Was I really making closer to 500 at the wheels and quite possibly 550+ crank? I really dont know. Did I break a ring from too much power at the crank b/c the tq converter was giving me false readings? I dont know that either.
I couldnt really see the tq numbers on spades new dyno vids but I think his tq and hp numbers were relatively close which is way different from me. I had 70 less tq then hp.
Another thing to consider is that I was also using the fic and had no control over timing. My logs on the dyno said 14 degrees at 11 psi which is lower in both categories then spade.
Lots of obstacles to tackle right now and sadly I dont have any definite answers.
The only thing that gives me some relief in regards to a inefficient tq converter is that I have a built motor. So in theory I could have 650+hp at the crank and not crack any pistons again but Im losing serious amounts of power through the drive train and most of this work is for nothing....
On a different note, I bought a 2010 yamaha fz6r to satisfy my need for speed at the moment lol
I started looking for used torque converters but Ive had no luck. A new converter is 650$. I was thinking about sending a spare converter to a shop and have them beef/build/modify whatever needs to be done to the converter to handle the power. Im not worried about the actual hard parts in the trans at this point. Im not even worried about the clutch packs either.
Ive been looking for 6sp trans on ebay and junkyards for a long time actually. But a complete 5at to 6mt swap with at the minimum JandR's twin disc clutch is around another 5,000$ easy. I would rather try a upgraded tq converter first for a much cheaper alternative.
After hearing about spade's incident, it really got me thinking about my car when it hit the dyno making 408whp. Was I really making closer to 500 at the wheels and quite possibly 550+ crank? I really dont know. Did I break a ring from too much power at the crank b/c the tq converter was giving me false readings? I dont know that either.
I couldnt really see the tq numbers on spades new dyno vids but I think his tq and hp numbers were relatively close which is way different from me. I had 70 less tq then hp.
Another thing to consider is that I was also using the fic and had no control over timing. My logs on the dyno said 14 degrees at 11 psi which is lower in both categories then spade.
Lots of obstacles to tackle right now and sadly I dont have any definite answers.
The only thing that gives me some relief in regards to a inefficient tq converter is that I have a built motor. So in theory I could have 650+hp at the crank and not crack any pistons again but Im losing serious amounts of power through the drive train and most of this work is for nothing....
On a different note, I bought a 2010 yamaha fz6r to satisfy my need for speed at the moment lol
08-10-2011, 07:22 AM
#135
Safety Car
Interesting about the 5AT "absorbing" the power. This reminds me of something that IHC said approx one year ago. He was discussing my TL Diet *equivalent power* output. He said that the my Diet equivalent power would probably be higher than just the calculated ratio due to the less weight / less frictional losses going thru my trans (I heavily paraphrased what he actually said). So, it seems that maybe IHC had a heads-up of the frictional losses in the auto trans maybe being an issue.
This makes me glad that I backed-out of the NMI. On the other hand, I am sorry that this is happening to you because I know that you have a lot of time and money into your turbo project. Have you considered buying a used 6MT car and swap your parts over to it (then sell the 5AT car)? This would be a lot more easy and successful than trying to swap just the trans itself. AccurateIn did this (swapped cars) with a lot of success.
This makes me glad that I backed-out of the NMI. On the other hand, I am sorry that this is happening to you because I know that you have a lot of time and money into your turbo project. Have you considered buying a used 6MT car and swap your parts over to it (then sell the 5AT car)? This would be a lot more easy and successful than trying to swap just the trans itself. AccurateIn did this (swapped cars) with a lot of success.
08-10-2011, 09:28 AM
#136
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Unfortunately we ran into an issue with the spades build which prompt us to really look into the autos as there's definetly ,something to address as libert and spade cars has proven ,weare looking into it and finding the problem this way we can get a solution ,which I'm sure the the place to look is with the trans as libert stated the power loss through the auto is seeming to be very significant ,some more testing is required for us to get this working without any mote issues as we've rectified the manuals which are up and running fine ,but it seems the auto will need the same attention or more at this point ..
Libert build is coming along but with this mishap were going to be a little behind and way cautious with his build and tuning ,because if the our theory is right which most times are libert build will only address one issue and wake up the next example if trans is robbing that much power with a piston and rods ,now we turn up the power let's say 480-500 to the wheels at the crank that would equate to a lot more power which in return would be start to concerned about sleeves trans ect so this is a set back however I am working on it to get a solution which there's always a solution to a problem , ill continue to update the thread as more info is added or any break thru..
Libert build is coming along but with this mishap were going to be a little behind and way cautious with his build and tuning ,because if the our theory is right which most times are libert build will only address one issue and wake up the next example if trans is robbing that much power with a piston and rods ,now we turn up the power let's say 480-500 to the wheels at the crank that would equate to a lot more power which in return would be start to concerned about sleeves trans ect so this is a set back however I am working on it to get a solution which there's always a solution to a problem , ill continue to update the thread as more info is added or any break thru..
08-10-2011, 11:43 AM
#137
As far as the mt. Acktl05 has a complete swap for sale.. Everything from the boot to the cluster etc.. Buying another car and swapping would be much of a hassle and a big investment until resale..either way Gl. I swapped over from AT and I've never looked back..
08-31-2011, 06:57 PM
#139
Instructor
Update.....
Ok, parts for the car are ordered and should be installed by this weekend. We are keeping the vehicle stock for the time being with boost levels between 8-10 psi. I will eventually upgrade the pistions, rods, and torque converter. I will more than likely buy a second transmission with the intent to outsource some custom work. I emailed a couple of companies to determine if they can rebuild the internals with stronger componets. Hopefully someone will have some good news for me. Stay tuned...
Ok, parts for the car are ordered and should be installed by this weekend. We are keeping the vehicle stock for the time being with boost levels between 8-10 psi. I will eventually upgrade the pistions, rods, and torque converter. I will more than likely buy a second transmission with the intent to outsource some custom work. I emailed a couple of companies to determine if they can rebuild the internals with stronger componets. Hopefully someone will have some good news for me. Stay tuned...
The following users liked this post:
BostonSilverTypeS (09-01-2011)
09-11-2011, 12:42 PM
#141
Instructor
Update....
Alright, the car is getting put back together and should be tuned by Wednesday or Thursday. The car will be under low boost till I get upgraded componets for the engine. Here is my list of upgraded mods I will be getting in Oct.
Bisimoto springs and titanium retainers
Bisimoto level 2 cams
Pauter Rods
Upgraded pistons
Upgraded torque converter
Once I receive parts, the car will be tuned to hold 500+ HP. I'm hoping the car will be up and running and tuned by 15 November. Please feel free to comment or suggest other possible mods I may need to explore. I'm still looking at doing something with the trans but haven't heard anything from transmission companies as of yet.
Alright, the car is getting put back together and should be tuned by Wednesday or Thursday. The car will be under low boost till I get upgraded componets for the engine. Here is my list of upgraded mods I will be getting in Oct.
Bisimoto springs and titanium retainers
Bisimoto level 2 cams
Pauter Rods
Upgraded pistons
Upgraded torque converter
Once I receive parts, the car will be tuned to hold 500+ HP. I'm hoping the car will be up and running and tuned by 15 November. Please feel free to comment or suggest other possible mods I may need to explore. I'm still looking at doing something with the trans but haven't heard anything from transmission companies as of yet.
09-13-2011, 07:49 PM
#143
Instructor
Alright, I'm just throwing this out there to see what the community thinks and to get your feedback. I talked to Bisimoto engineering about doing some custom engine work. As of right now, I will be getting Bisimoto custom cams which will be specifically made for the J&R turbo setup on my car. These are not the level 1 or 2 that are all ready on the market. Also I will be getting Bisimoto springs and titanium retainers.
The question I have for the community is, should I have Bisimoto engineering also do custom rods and pistons and keep everything under one brand or should I stick with Pauter rods and CP pistions. Pauter rods and CP pistons are already installed in turbo TL's, so I know they are reliable. Please give me some feedback....Thanks
The question I have for the community is, should I have Bisimoto engineering also do custom rods and pistons and keep everything under one brand or should I stick with Pauter rods and CP pistions. Pauter rods and CP pistons are already installed in turbo TL's, so I know they are reliable. Please give me some feedback....Thanks
Last edited by spade0698; 09-13-2011 at 07:54 PM.
09-13-2011, 09:17 PM
#144
Safety Car
^ Never use just one brand for related parts just for the sake of "making sure everything is compatible". In my experience, this is a piss poor reason and a sure-fire way to shoot yourself in the foot.
Do your homework by doing Google searches. Use the brand that is generally accepted to be the best for that one specific item only.
Do your homework by doing Google searches. Use the brand that is generally accepted to be the best for that one specific item only.
The following users liked this post:
spade0698 (09-13-2011)
09-13-2011, 09:57 PM
#146
Instructor
Just talking with the BisiMoto tech and Rodney, the cams will help with the overall performance of the engine targeting a desired RPM range and improving the turbo to spool quicker. Once I get ready to order the cams, The tech will send Rodney a spec sheet to determine what RPM range we want to improve and info on the turbo build. Also I will have the tech provide me details on what to expect from the cams and overall performance. Hopefully Rodney will provide additional details.
09-13-2011, 10:03 PM
#147
Instructor
^ Never use just one brand for related parts just for the sake of "making sure everything is compatible". In my experience, this is a piss poor reason and a sure-fire way to shoot yourself in the foot.
Do your homework by doing Google searches. Use the brand that is generally accepted to be the best for that one specific item only.
Do your homework by doing Google searches. Use the brand that is generally accepted to be the best for that one specific item only.
09-13-2011, 10:08 PM
#148
Safety Car
I am not knowledgeable of turbos, but I will take a stab at it.
Horsepower wins races. Not torque. Look at any formula that predicts elapse times and you will always see HP, not TQ.
Given HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252, we can see that HP can more easily be produced, with less torque, at higher RPMs. And given that torque is what breaks parts, it becomes an advantage to move the peak torque higher into the RPM range.
This is easily seen in the Evo world. That little 2.0 Liter engine can produce 1000 HP via moving the peak torque very high into the RPM range.
Increasing a camshaft's duration (at 0.050") is the primary means by which the peak torque is raised to higher RPM.
Horsepower wins races. Not torque. Look at any formula that predicts elapse times and you will always see HP, not TQ.
Given HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252, we can see that HP can more easily be produced, with less torque, at higher RPMs. And given that torque is what breaks parts, it becomes an advantage to move the peak torque higher into the RPM range.
This is easily seen in the Evo world. That little 2.0 Liter engine can produce 1000 HP via moving the peak torque very high into the RPM range.
Increasing a camshaft's duration (at 0.050") is the primary means by which the peak torque is raised to higher RPM.
Last edited by Inaccurate; 09-13-2011 at 10:11 PM.
09-14-2011, 02:54 AM
#149
Just talking with the BisiMoto tech and Rodney, the cams will help with the overall performance of the engine targeting a desired RPM range and improving the turbo to spool quicker. Once I get ready to order the cams, The tech will send Rodney a spec sheet to determine what RPM range we want to improve and info on the turbo build. Also I will have the tech provide me details on what to expect from the cams and overall performance. Hopefully Rodney will provide additional details.
09-14-2011, 08:48 PM
#150
Instructor
Rodneys stock motor TL made 500tq at 2000 rpms with the new ecu!!! How much faster do you want this thing to spool? Your already spinning the tires like crazy at this point. Custom cams are not needed IMO. Spend that money on something else. Get a alky/devils own meth kit instead
Maybe my logic is messed up but I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens from there.
Last edited by spade0698; 09-14-2011 at 08:52 PM.
09-22-2011, 05:45 PM
#151
Instructor
Alright, the car is up and running with stock internals for the time being with 6 psi boost. I just got off the phone with BisiMoto about some work they will be doing for me in the future. As of now, my project includes getting CP pistons, Pauter rods, BisiMoto custom cams for the turbo setup, BisiMoto springs and titanium retainers, BisiMoto valves and upgraded torque converter. I will be placing the order sometime in Oct and hopefully have the car completed by Thanksgiving. Also, BisiMoto is starting a forum on the J-Series Motor which me and Rodney will be updating the cars build with input from BisiMoto and their customers. I will also update the zine as well. Hopefully this will open opportunities to showcase the potential of the J35 and J32 to other performance companies. Wish us luck.
09-22-2011, 06:01 PM
#152
Safety Car
Bisimoto Forum (click here)
09-22-2011, 07:28 PM
#153
Instructor
Link below. Please note that the J-Series info has not been added yet. Hopefully soon
Bisimoto Forum (click here)
Bisimoto Forum (click here)
Once it's added, I'll provide the link.
09-23-2011, 11:12 PM
#154
Instructor
Here is more video we did on Sept 18. This was done after we replaced two pistons, some rings and seals. Rough tune with low boost (299HP, 273TQ). Second Graph is the second dyno with low boost and a better tune (311HP, 287TQ). Also the first dyno graph is seen. Both dyno pulls were done with the same psi boost but the difference is with the tune. Hopefully we will increase the boost between 8-10 psi in the next couple of days.
http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/...=VIDEO0243.mp4
http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/...=VIDEO0247.mp4
http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/...=VIDEO0243.mp4
http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/...=VIDEO0247.mp4
09-24-2011, 07:58 AM
#156
Instructor
My goal once I have all the upgraded internals is between 420-450HP which is easily assessable. I'm just afraid the trans will not be able to handle anymore power unless someone comes up with a solution for the Trans. If so, 550+hp is achievable. Project should be completed by late Nov.
09-25-2011, 12:18 PM
#158
Instructor
I already have Redline Type F fluid. I will be replacing 3rd/4th sensor soon...
09-25-2011, 01:02 PM
#159
Instructor
Anyone know the part number for the sensor or where I can get it....