I hate cars

I bought these used off of a member here. They were described as nearly perfect with one scratch on one of the calipers. In reality they were pretty beat up, I would guess 15 scratches and patches of paint missing.

With that out of the way, install was very straight forward, no instructions needed. I installed DOT 5.1 fluid at the same time so I flushed the reservoir and calipers several times and then let it gravity bleed for a while to make sure it had 100% DOT 5.1 in the system. This stuff is awesome for ABS setups if you haven't tried it. It definately enhances ABS operation actually reducing stopping distances because it's half as thick as DOT 3 or 4.

The stock 5at brakes have always stopped the car very quickly for one stop. In fact, some mags had the 5at brakes just a hair quicker than the Brembos but it's really a matter of tire traction, not brake size. The problem I've always had was the terrible vibration once they got a little heat in them even when the car was new. After some aggressive driving they turned blue and have cracks. There was no way they were going to hold up at the track with prolonged use. They would've shaken the car apart.

So my first impressions of the Rotoras are impressive. There's still a little air in the system which I'll take care of tomorrow. However, even with the air in there modulation is better and overall feel is better. I can't wait to see what they feel like once I get the air out.

Interestingly enough the car stops quicker. I was worried about upsetting the front to rear bias and the fronts definately lock before the rears. However, the fronts get much closer to the edge of lockup than before. The tires now chirp with each pulse of the ABS. Before it was rare to ever hear a chirp from the tires even in a full on panic stop. It could be the extra leverage of the large rotors and higher clamping force of the additional piston area or it could be the DOT 5.1 doing what it's supposed to do. Either way, the car stops quicker even in a one stop stop before fade comes into play.

I shot brake temps right before I took the stock brakes off. After 3 60-0 stops the fronts were around 480 degrees while the rears were 360. I did this a couple times to get an average. With the 13" brakes in front, they actually run cooler than the rears in the same test. The rears came out cooler than before, around 340 degrees proving there is more front bias but amazingly the fronts were at 300 degrees. I expected a change but this was more than I ever imagined.

The high speed feel is amazing, again better than I imagined it would be. Slowing down from 120mph just before ABS intervenes is completely drama free and linear. It's like the brakes don't know the difference if you're stopping easy from a 45mph roll or 120mph. It's effortless. The absense of vibration is wonderful. Best of all the second and third stop from 120mph felt just like the first. Pedal effort is about the same as the stock brakes but the difference is it doesn't change even after many hard stops.

Some of the unstable feeling with the front end darting around under hard braking is gone. I have always assumed it was suspension or alignment and just lived with it.

For whatever reason I can enter a corner with a little more brake without locking the inside wheel. This makes no sense and it may just be the placebo effect.

These things not only improve the hard stopping numbers, they greatly improve the dynamics. They give a sense of control that the 5at brakes never had, just effortless power. If I knew how much of a difference they would make I would've upgraded years ago.

Jason- you were right- Just shut up and drive it before worrying about f/r bias lol.

I've driven a 6mt base and a 6mt and 5at TL-S with the Brembos and I have to say the 5at and 6mt brakes are close to one another than they are to the Rotoras. Even if I had the factory Brembos and drove a Rotora equipped car I would upgrade. I just can't say enough about these brakes.

Now I need to find where I can buy replacement pads for these things..... Oh, and I am going to buy a more aggressive pad for the rears. Only thing is it may generate more heat at the same time. I guess experimenting is the only way to learn.

I hate cars

I missed the edit time limit but I wanted to stress the modulation ability. I can hold these things right at the verge of ABS kicking in so easily and everything in between. I did enough high speed stops to border on abuse and there was no change in the braking performance. I'm done now, going to bed so I can get up early tomorrow and abuse them some more.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

nice write up. im definitely sold on a BBK but I havent done my homework on each one. what made you finally chose rotora?

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

I hope you got a good deal on 'em, Matt!

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I wish. Roughly $1,000 shipped. But they will need pads soon and the scratches....... there are so many. I'm thinking of painting them black anyway. That's one of the drawbacks of apartment life, it's important to not draw attention to the car and the blue calipers definitely stand out.

I hate cars

I had almost decided on the Rotoras when I found this kit in the black market a few hundred cheaper and low miles. I'm still happy with them even with the scratches. The price sealed the deal.

After hearing from CSWBiggs and others about the quality of the Rotoras and potential quality issues with the Wilwoods I know I made the right decision. Besides, 13" was the minimum I wanted to go after thinking about it. Anything is better than the stock 5at brakes but the 13" 4 pots are a big upgrade and really justify the time and money. After looking at the clearance with stock rims I'm pretty sure a 13.5" rotor would fit no problem.

Inaccurate

Great write-up IHC !

Ok, you sold me on the Amsoil PS fluid.
Now, you got me sold on the 5.1 for the win
What brand of 5.1 do you recommend ?

Damn, I don't think we can handle hard data
Cool deal (pun intended) on collecting hard data with the infrared temp gun.
I wish I had a temp gun when I was developing the UCM.

Happy to see someone else getting addicted to engaging their abs..... that sounds dirty..... but it feels so good..... hitting abs that is

Sooo, it seems you have the "brake" department taken care of if you were to stumble across a way to get an additional 200 whp.

Amazing that the new setup can't be forced into brake fade.

Sounds like you found the combination for

Thanks for sharing your findings

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

Nice write up, got any pictures IHC?

EvoToTL

iTrader: (6)

thanks for the write up! good info for sure. nice post some pics of them bad boys

bforbrian

iTrader: (11)

IHC, I apologize about the scratches, I guess I shouldn't have assumed you would put the scratches past you but I wanted to take full responsibility now. For what it's worth, I did not cause one single scratch on the calipers, believe it or not, lol. I guess that's what separates a good mechanic from an excellent mechanic is, yeah the work is straightforward as in bolt off the BBK and bolt on the stock brakes, but an excellent mechanic makes sure that the paint (seeing as to how it's a big brake kit) is in perfect condition. It's about the little things.

Again, sorry about the scratches, but it's one of those things that can't be seen from a far but linger in the back of your mind.

Regarding the efficacy of the braking power, for me it was very difficult to notice the stopping power when I put the BBK ON. Upon taking it OFF to ship to you, I noticed the biggest lag in braking power and distance and quite frankly, I was disappointed in my decision to sell it but I was hitting a rough patch. I'm not sure if it's the D/S rotors I'm running but I can go as far as to say that the braking power was compromised by almost 50%.

Have fun with it, it will do you a ton of good.

I hate cars

No problem. I'm not upset, that's why I didn't contact you or name drop. The scratches were obviously from when they were taken off. It looks like the mechanic laid them upside down on concrete, nothing that could've happened when installed on the car. Luckily most of them are not visible when installed so it's all good. Thank you for getting them out here quickly.

And thank you for acknowledging this post, most would've ignored it. FWIW, I'm probably going to paint them black anyway unless the deal for a house comes through soon.

I hate cars

I would love to have seen how your average brake temps dropped as you lost weight. But for fun you should shoot some temps. I bet you're right about where I am now with the BBK.

DOT 5.1 is awesome. I ran it with the stock setup up until the dealer did some work and installed DOT 3 in it's place. It definitely makes ABS more effective. Probably harder on the tires but it definitely brings you closer to lock. One of the few ultra cheap mods that can shorten your stopping distances in an ABS equipped car.

I'm running Motul right now. The boiling point is up there. There are some fluids that have a higher boiling point but at 509F your pads will probably fade before the fluid boils. It's only ~$8 for a 500ml bottle. I bought 5 of them and only used 3 and that's flushing the reservoir, lines, and the big 4 piston calipers.

FWIW, with the rotors at 300-320 degrees the calipers were less than 100 degrees after 3 consecutive 120mph stops.

I was going over in my head where the huge difference in temps comes from. The large rotors weigh about the same as the stock rotors if not a little lighter (I got the 1pc) The % change in diameter is not that great so I'm wonder where the 50% reduction in front rotor temps comes from.

One other thing I forgot to mention. The stock rotors had a band of pad buildup about an inch wide around them. When I went over that with the IR thermometer temps soared nearly 80 degrees hotter than the rest of the rotor.

RonJonTL757

IHC I have noticed on my car that when i hit the brakes at an excessive speed the car does tend to shoot out to the right like my wheel is loose or my suspension is jacked up...so your saying its the Brembos the whole time WOW never would have thought.

I hate cars

I wouldn't count on it being the brakes. I was VERY surprised some of the dartiness under braking went away with mine. It's possible but not likely.

One thing it may have been..... I was still on the factory pads at 85,000 miles but when I removed them for the first time, one side was twice as worn as the other. It would almost seem like one brake was doing more work than the other which may have been the cause of it trying to shoot off one way during hard braking. However with your 4 piston calipers in the Brembos it's less likely.

I hate cars

It figures that it would rain the day I want to do some real testing and bleed my brakes. With an average annual rainfall of just a couple inches, it rains on the day I really need to work on the car. I'm stuck in the house with nothing to do....

WRXtranceformed

I hate cars

I took some cell phone pics during the install. I guess they will do until I get some of the completed project.

I hate cars

Here are a few.... and I finally downloaded the last pic of the CL65 off my phone. I should've gotten a close up of the huge 15" brakes. I'll get those maybe later today if the rain stops.







And for fun....



I told my father to take my mom for a ride in the AMG yesterday. They came back and she was pissed mumbling something about acting like a 16yr old so I knew he pushed it a little lol.

phee

iTrader: (5)

was this the link i sent u?

I hate cars

Yes sir. I've been meaning to tell you thanks for a while now so thanks! I owe you one.

phee

iTrader: (5)

oh. no big! i wasnt sure if you read it in time or who bought them. glad it all worked out. and u got a real good deal on them.

Souljah

Off topic but that AMG is one bad ass car.
Is that yours IHC?

I hate cars

I wish. I kicked it out of the garage to do my brakes at my friend's house, my TL was on jackstands right behind where I took the picture. Luckily he's very generous with it, I pretty much have access to it whenever I want. I meant to get a picture of the brakes while I was over there. Here I am proud of my 13" 4 piston brakes yet everytime I looked across the street the huge 15" (a guess) 6 piston brakes were staring at me. However, my TL likely has more brake since it's 2,000lbs lighter.

I took a video of it cruising down the street but I didn't hit record in time so all of the wheel spin didn't get captured. If you know of a place I can host videos I would gladly get it in motion from inside and out. Watching the speedo climb is fun. While my turbo car is quite a bit faster, the speedo ends at 85mph. Watching this thing go from 120-140 nearly as fast as it went from 40-60 is fun.

WRXtranceformed

You can host videos on Photobucket. Nice pics IHC, those brakes look beefy. I'm going to have to replace the rotors pretty soon on my TL-S and will probably go with a beefier setup than stock, but I doubt I'll swap out the stock Brembo calipers.

Inaccurate

I been thinking too about the temp differences. According to theory (yes, I know… and I agree), the amount of heat *must* be identical between the old brakes and the new brakes. Please notice that I stated “the amount of heat”, BTU’s if you will.

According to physics, the reduction in mph must be converted into pure heat. According to physics, the amount of heat produces is a product of the momentum (vehicle weight and velocity reduction). Thus, your old brakes and new brakes would had to absorb the identical amount of heat.

Now, would the different rotors show a difference in temperature given that both rotors had absorbed the identical amount of heat (BTU)? I lack the knowledge to answer this question.

BTW, was the weather temps nearly the same when you measured the temp of the old brakes versus the new brakes? I know from touching my rotors after my daily commutes, that there is significant differences in the temps of the rotors based on the weather temps.

But as we discussed in the past with other topics, real life (empirical data) always trumps theory.

Moving on to other related topics….

I use YouTube for hosting my videos. You might want to give YouTube a try for hosting your vids.

Are the Rotora’s calipers are straightforward bolt-on?
Can you recommend an online vendor where I could order the Motul brake fluid?

Thank you for taking the time to post the pics. I know how much effort is involved for someone that is not set-up to post pics on a normal bases. We do appreciate the pics.

I hate cars

The Rotoras were a direct bolt-on. No harder than if you had to swap out stock components. Pad changes should be much easier since the pads come out of the top of the caliper after removing two pins that are retained by cotter pins. In other words the calipers don't have to come off and it requires no tools.

The calipers are significantly lighter than stock. I really should've measured the weight for you but I believe I remember seeing specs at one time.

The one piece rotors feel about the same weight as stock maybe a tad lighter. I know the two piece are quite a bit lighter than stock.

I agree with you too. To stop a certain mass from a certain speed requires the same btu input into the brakes no matter what the size.

With both the stock and 13" weighing about the same, I *think* we can take rotor mass out of the equation.

There's the longer lever arm of the 13" rotor but that has nothing to do with btu input, just leverage.

What that leaves us with (at least all I can think of) is heat dissipation such as surface area. In fact looking back I should've gotten the stock rotors up to a certain temp and then let them sit for a given amount of time and measured temps again to compare the difference in cooling rates. Of course this is static so it takes airflow out of the equation. If the large brakes did cool down faster that partially answers the question. I could compare the front and rear cool down times but there's a drastic weight difference so I don't think it would be valid.

One other point I noticed is the Rotora calipers seemed to heat up less than the stock calipers after a few hard stops. Maybe there's less heat transfer to the fluid.

However pad surface area is about the same so is the braking track so for a given rotor temp I would expect pad temps to be the same as stock. I was kind of hoping for a larger than stock pad since it would seem this would lower overall pad temps or at least wear.

I've found Motul everywhere for about the same price everywhere. I did a google search and came up with 20 stores all within a dollar or so of each other. Some of the big names like Summit and Jegs don't carry it. I ordered from FRsport because it was the only place I could find both Redline oil and the Motul 5.1 fluid.

I know I'm all over the place. I had my monthly beer....yes a single beer that gets me buzzed so I'll continue this in the morning and hopefully it will make a little sense.

I hate cars

Just read that crossdrilled rotors of the same size will run 90 degrees cooler on average. Don't know if I believe that or not but it does bring up the fact that we're comparing stock solid disks to larger crossdrilled and slotted rotors.

Trew

iTrader: (1)

Matt, does the Rotora kit bolt right on to a 5AT spindle/knuckle or would I have to modify something to make the kit fit?

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100% bolt on. It's literally as easy as removing the stock components and bolting on the new stuff.

I had the drill ready for the rotor retaining screws since I've heard the horror stories so those took me about as long as unscrewing them.

I made the mistake of separating the stock caliper from the mounting bracket on the first side. No no need for that, it's just extra work. Take the caliper and bracket off as one unit from the knuckle. If you do this, it's literally two bolts to get the old caliper off and put the new one on.

Once the tire is off, you can literally take apart the old stuff and bolt up the Rotora stuff in less than 10 minutes per wheel. The only time consuming part is bleeding the brakes.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

This has to be the easiest, most expensive mod you can put on your car 25 minutes and you have more than $1000 in parts on lol glad to see they work great though! I love the color

I hate cars

This is one of those mods that makes you want to drive the car just to drive, just like when it was new. We usually take the GF's car to go places around town just to avoid the stress of door dings and such but lately we've been taking the TL everywhere. I've got the excitement back.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

I bet you'll be putting even more miles on the TL once you get the turbo You got custom audio done, suspension taken care of, BBK, now it's time for turbo

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

The MOTUL DOT 5.1 is a great fluid (just for reference it's not DOT 5, which is not compatible with DOT 3 or DOT 4 - it's 5.1 - synthetic brake fluid compatible with DOT 3/4). We use it virtually on every performance-oriented car we work on, whether installing a Big Brake Kit or slotted rotors. Most ppl believe that the RBF600 is necessary for a car with a BBK but the DOT 5.1 is a better suit, at least if you have a street car. The RBF600 or 660 has a higher boiling point, but it wicks water much more quickly than the DOT 5.1 so you will have to flush it at least every 6-12 months. DOT 5.1 can be flushed every 2 years or 30k, at least that is what is recommended.

I hate cars

Agreed. And it enhances ABS operation. It's not often you can install $16 worth of fluid and decrease stopping distances slightly.

I hate cars

I'm trying to fight the temptation for another month or two but the turbo kit is naturally the next step. When I'm done this thing should be a real sleeper with stock rims and barely any drop. Just have to force myself to paint the calipers black.

I hate cars

So it's probably obvious that I'm bored waiting for the Superbowl lol..... So I've been wondering a few things about this BBK.

I'm not one to get fooled by the placebo effect of mods such as changing the oil and feeling an increase in power.

However I just can't get out of my head how this car seems to HANDLE better especially when cornering over bumps. This morning I wasn't paying attention or trying to feel a difference but once again I noticed the handling over bumpy roads is better. I haven't changed anything else, not even tire pressure.

I'm wondering if it's the reduction in unsprung weight with the much lighter 4 piston calipers. If this is the case I would've gone with the 2-piece rotors if I knew you could actually feel the difference.

This makes me want to start looking for stock appearing lighter rims.

Anyone out there with a lighter BBK notice this?

On another note, anyone ever remove the dust shield? It hardly ever rains here and I'm wondering if there would be any real advantage to the extra airflow. Inaccurate, you out there?

CSWBiggs

lol...

shut up and drive!!

-Jason

I hate cars

I want to! All of this nonsense I've been talking is what happens when you install a new mod and it rains before you have a chance to fully test it. I'm not going to have any tires left by the time this is over.

On another note..... I was thinking about taking that road that leads up to Willow Springs from the 58. I've heard it's a fun road to practice on.

p.diddy

iTrader: (3)

thanks for the review thats the next mod i got coming after im done getting my lip kit molded. i know exactly what you mean about the not drawing attention to your car since you live in an apartment. thats why i made sure i got a apartment with a garage.

Inaccurate

Yes, it is the unsprung weight reduction that you are feeling. When I installed my light weight rims (14.5 lbs versus 24.5 lbs oem), I was doing it for the dynamic weight loss (acceleration and braking).

I was not interested in the slightest with the handling improvements with the lowered unsprung weight. I had never played around with reducing unsprung weight, and didn’t even know what it would feel like if I did do it.

But, I quickly learned of the feeling that one gets with less unsprung weight after driving with my lightweight rims. I had one huge grin on my face like climaxing. It was just like you described it. Hitting bumps while turning and bumps while taking curves feels a world of difference.

Same applies to going over bumps in a straight line too. This is one reason I am so reluctant to give up my “Baja 500” suspension travel. With that long travel and less unsprung weight, it is a blast to haul ass down city streets (and encountering the unexpected bumps).

This is how much less unsprung weight that I have compared to oem.

Per each rear wheel
10 lbs rims
5.5 lightweight tires
4 lbs parking brake
------------------------------------
19.5 lbs less per each rear wheel


Per each front wheel
10 lbs rims
0.7 lbs splash shield
4 lbs parking brake
------------------------------------
14.7 lbs less per each front wheel



The dust shields
---------------------
As Biggs would say, “just do it damn it”. I highly recommend that you remove the shields. I really do believe that it allows my brakes to run much cooler. Plus, why even call it a “splash” shield.
I have a hard time understanding how water would “splash” on the brakes with the brakes deeply recessed inside the wheel rim. I have been thru the heaviest of downpours often since removing mine. No problem what so ever.

You will not be able to remove the rear shields without losing the parking brake. See this post (click here) from the TL diet for removal of the rear shield and parking brake.



Below is the "BEFORE" pic



Below is the "AFTER" pic



The technically correct method to remove the front shields requires dropping the lower ball joint and removal of the outer axle shaft. Here is a much easier method and is how I did it. Remove the wheel, remove the rotor, remove the three screws (grip head with ViseGrips) for the shield, then cut the shield off with tin snipers.