Stock sub replacement: Image Dynamics ID8 - IT FITS
10-06-2010, 07:57 PM
#41
Team Owner
> So if every "good" subwoofer out there is sealed / ported / passive radiator... why do we spend so much time and effort building infinite baffle , aperiodic or dipoles?
The fact that most home audiophile systems do not use bandpass subwoofers speaks for itself.
For those that aren't looking for accuracy, certain designs exaggerate output at certain frequencies, and some like that effect.
> Also What is wrong with boosting and cutting frequencies?
Nothing, as long as it doesn't take away from the system. In the case of a bandpass SUBWOOFER, you will get pronounced bass in your passband, but frequencies above and below, will be attenuated relative to other frequencies.
> The best low end configurations I have ever heard in a car were IB / AP -- NOT a ported or sealed enclosure.
In other words, not bandpass.
The fact that most home audiophile systems do not use bandpass subwoofers speaks for itself.
For those that aren't looking for accuracy, certain designs exaggerate output at certain frequencies, and some like that effect.
> Also What is wrong with boosting and cutting frequencies?
Nothing, as long as it doesn't take away from the system. In the case of a bandpass SUBWOOFER, you will get pronounced bass in your passband, but frequencies above and below, will be attenuated relative to other frequencies.
> The best low end configurations I have ever heard in a car were IB / AP -- NOT a ported or sealed enclosure.
In other words, not bandpass.
I'm running a bandpass setup. I have for over a year. I guess my ears are wrong, I'll believe some guy on the internet that has never done it before over my ears lol. It sucks you don't know how to properly design a bandpass for anything but a one note wonder but don't hate the entire design because of your shortcomings.
Tell me, what music dips down into the 20hz range and what human can hear it?
If I ever change my setup it will be for an IB. I'll never go back to a sealed or ported box in a TL. There are too many drawbacks. I've run sealed, ported, and now bandpass and the sound got better each time. This is with the same subs and amp for each box. This bandpass is the most musical and accurate setup I've ever personally owned.
I know the bandpass setup isn't the end all be all of car audio but it solved a lot of problems I had with the TL. Yes, I have turned it around and the bass is incredible but then there are the rattles and the accuracy goes down. Again, I listen to music, not test tones.
As for your home setups question, it's a whole different ballgame and comparing a home theatre to a car environment is apples and oranges. Everything changes but I have seen bandpass and I have seen IB setups but it requires a large wall and a large room from what I remember.
Anyone going to Acurafest this weekend is welcome to hear how terrible my bass is lol. I'm sure it won't compare to Neel's car but it holds it's own.
10-06-2010, 08:03 PM
#42
Team Owner
It is absolutely not the same. If you call someone a liar, you're basically firing a shot at them.
If someone claims that 1 + 1 = 3 and I say that 1 + 1 = 2, would I be calling them a liar?
I guess I could have just left out saying that I didn't believe him and presented the facts, letting them speak for themselves.
Cookie cutter ported box. Now that's firing a shot.
I'm not trying to get personal here. I referenced sources to back my claims. Instead of bullying me, maybe you should either counter my argument or accept it.
If someone claims that 1 + 1 = 3 and I say that 1 + 1 = 2, would I be calling them a liar?
I guess I could have just left out saying that I didn't believe him and presented the facts, letting them speak for themselves.
Cookie cutter ported box. Now that's firing a shot.
I'm not trying to get personal here. I referenced sources to back my claims. Instead of bullying me, maybe you should either counter my argument or accept it.
As for your liar comment, it was very much a shot. A guy says how good his system sounds and you counter with "I don't believe you". It really doesn't matter, I just brought it up because you accused me of getting personal.
10-06-2010, 08:04 PM
#43
It depends on what you mean by low. If low to you is 30-40 Hz, then fine, but low to me is 25 Hz. Given the available space, a ported design will allow a driver to have maximum output at the lowest frequencies, with the flattest response. A sealed driver would need an Xmax of several inches (an absurd amount) to keep up with a driver in a ported enclosure, assuming that you even have the power to drive it, as efficiency is out the door.
I do not deny that people like bandpass enclosures. It's the same way with cameras. Newbies jack up the contrast and saturation, while overexposing their photos, and to them, it looks good, and most of them have no clue their camera is doing this because it's set like that from the factory. But you know what. It's OK. If you like it, that's all that matters. My whole point was that a bandpass design would not work for me.
Tell me this. If a customer came to you asking for strong bass in the 25 Hz zone, would you design a bandpass enclosure for them?
I do not deny that people like bandpass enclosures. It's the same way with cameras. Newbies jack up the contrast and saturation, while overexposing their photos, and to them, it looks good, and most of them have no clue their camera is doing this because it's set like that from the factory. But you know what. It's OK. If you like it, that's all that matters. My whole point was that a bandpass design would not work for me.
Tell me this. If a customer came to you asking for strong bass in the 25 Hz zone, would you design a bandpass enclosure for them?
10-06-2010, 08:14 PM
#44
> I'm not trying to bully anyone. I'm not even upset.
Ok, good then. I will enjoy my cookie cutter subwoofer, whatever that means.
> But it makes no sense to come on here saying a bandpass setup is inferior when you have never heard a well designed one in a TL.
I don't need to hear one. The frequency response plot says it all. Do you listen to music with fundamentals at 25 Hz? If not, then there's nothing wrong with using a bandpass design.
> I have no loyalty to a certain design but if one sounds much better than the rest, I'm going to go with that one.
I completely agree with you. If you like it, that's all that matters.
> As for your liar comment, it was very much a shot. A guy says how good his system sounds and you counter with "I don't believe you".
That's a lot milder than saying, "You're a liar!"
> It really doesn't matter, I just brought it up because you accused me of getting personal.
Uh, no. I did not. Look at the messages again. You said that before I said anything your getting personal.
Ok, good then. I will enjoy my cookie cutter subwoofer, whatever that means.
> But it makes no sense to come on here saying a bandpass setup is inferior when you have never heard a well designed one in a TL.
I don't need to hear one. The frequency response plot says it all. Do you listen to music with fundamentals at 25 Hz? If not, then there's nothing wrong with using a bandpass design.
> I have no loyalty to a certain design but if one sounds much better than the rest, I'm going to go with that one.
I completely agree with you. If you like it, that's all that matters.
> As for your liar comment, it was very much a shot. A guy says how good his system sounds and you counter with "I don't believe you".
That's a lot milder than saying, "You're a liar!"
> It really doesn't matter, I just brought it up because you accused me of getting personal.
Uh, no. I did not. Look at the messages again. You said that before I said anything your getting personal.
10-06-2010, 08:16 PM
#45
Team Owner
It depends on what you mean by low. If low to you is 30-40 Hz, then fine, but low to me is 25 Hz. Given the available space, a ported design will allow a driver to have maximum output at the lowest frequencies, with the flattest response. A sealed driver would need an Xmax of several inches (an absurd amount) to keep up with a driver in a ported enclosure, assuming that you even have the power to drive it, as efficiency is out the door.
I do not deny that people like bandpass enclosures. It's the same way with cameras. Newbies jack up the contrast and saturation, while overexposing their photos, and to them, it looks good, and most of them have no clue their camera is doing this because it's set like that from the factory. But you know what. It's OK. If you like it, that's all that matters. My whole point was that a bandpass design would not work for me.
Tell me this. If a customer came to you asking for strong bass in the 25 Hz zone, would you design a bandpass enclosure for them?
I do not deny that people like bandpass enclosures. It's the same way with cameras. Newbies jack up the contrast and saturation, while overexposing their photos, and to them, it looks good, and most of them have no clue their camera is doing this because it's set like that from the factory. But you know what. It's OK. If you like it, that's all that matters. My whole point was that a bandpass design would not work for me.
Tell me this. If a customer came to you asking for strong bass in the 25 Hz zone, would you design a bandpass enclosure for them?
Of course I'm only talking about a TL. When I had the same subs in my GN in a sealed box, there was a ton of good clean low end bass. I could never get the Tl to my liking with the same setup. It would sound muddy with the sealed box and I tried adding and subtracting enclosure volume. The sealed box was an improvement but again I couldn't get it just right.
I don't like exaggerated bass but I do like a little extra in the low regions but this box plays extremely flat. It plays rap ok but it does sound better on some of the "tighter" country and rock stuff. There are many times people assume I have 10s back there. If I can get better SQ with the IB setup, I may switch setups. Again, no loyalty to the bandpass but it's the best I've run so far.....in the TL.
10-06-2010, 08:26 PM
#46
> You're so against bandpass that you don't bother to realize that your setup is not mentioned either.
You're missing the whole point. You're getting all defensive because you're using a bandpass setup. Has it ever occured to you that what you have, may not be the best for someone else?
> But I'm not going to have some guy who does not even have a sub in his TL tell me that mine can't sound good.
Somehow, you feel attacked. I see where the problem is coming from. You're decoding my messages all wrong.
> It sucks you don't know how to properly design a bandpass for anything but a one note wonder but don't hate the entire design because of your shortcomings.
Now you're really getting personal. Does it make you feel better to attack me?
> Tell me, what music dips down into the 20hz range and what human can hear it?
Techmaster PEB, Bass 305, Eurobass Express to name a few.
You're missing the whole point. You're getting all defensive because you're using a bandpass setup. Has it ever occured to you that what you have, may not be the best for someone else?
> But I'm not going to have some guy who does not even have a sub in his TL tell me that mine can't sound good.
Somehow, you feel attacked. I see where the problem is coming from. You're decoding my messages all wrong.
> It sucks you don't know how to properly design a bandpass for anything but a one note wonder but don't hate the entire design because of your shortcomings.
Now you're really getting personal. Does it make you feel better to attack me?
> Tell me, what music dips down into the 20hz range and what human can hear it?
Techmaster PEB, Bass 305, Eurobass Express to name a few.
Last edited by robocam; 10-06-2010 at 08:30 PM.
10-06-2010, 08:46 PM
#47
Let's break it down here
> For a 25hz tone, I would probably do ported.
We agree! It's amazing!
> But for music in the normal musical zone
Here you're claiming a definition for "normal." Can't do that. It's different for everyone. Your normal may not be my normal.
>I've never heard one song other than that one Kanye West song that goes below 30hz.
You're saying that YOU haven't heard. Have you heard everything?
Pipe organs go down to 16 Hz. The B string on a bass guitar is 30.87 Hz, but if you want it to sound right, you'd want your system to respond to lower frequencies so that when the B string is played, it won't be too many dBs quieter than the other strings.
> I don't like exaggerated bass but I do like a little extra in the low regions
If you really think about it, you just contradicted yourself. But it's ok. Who doesn't love bass?
> it does sound better on some of the "tighter" country and rock stuff.
Bandpass enclosures are great for that kick drum.
> There are many times people assume I have 10s back there.
When you actually have...?
We agree! It's amazing!
> But for music in the normal musical zone
Here you're claiming a definition for "normal." Can't do that. It's different for everyone. Your normal may not be my normal.
>I've never heard one song other than that one Kanye West song that goes below 30hz.
You're saying that YOU haven't heard. Have you heard everything?
Pipe organs go down to 16 Hz. The B string on a bass guitar is 30.87 Hz, but if you want it to sound right, you'd want your system to respond to lower frequencies so that when the B string is played, it won't be too many dBs quieter than the other strings.
> I don't like exaggerated bass but I do like a little extra in the low regions
If you really think about it, you just contradicted yourself. But it's ok. Who doesn't love bass?
> it does sound better on some of the "tighter" country and rock stuff.
Bandpass enclosures are great for that kick drum.
> There are many times people assume I have 10s back there.
When you actually have...?
10-06-2010, 08:57 PM
#48
Team Owner
> You're so against bandpass that you don't bother to realize that your setup is not mentioned either.
You're missing the whole point. You're getting all defensive because you're using a bandpass setup. Has it ever occured to you that what you have, may not be the best for someone else?
> But I'm not going to have some guy who does not even have a sub in his TL tell me that mine can't sound good.
Somehow, you feel attacked. I see where the problem is coming from. You're decoding my messages all wrong.
> It sucks you don't know how to properly design a bandpass for anything but a one note wonder but don't hate the entire design because of your shortcomings.
Now you're really getting personal. Does it make you feel better to attack me?
> Tell me, what music dips down into the 20hz range and what human can hear it?
Techmaster PEB, Bass 305, Eurobass Express to name a few.
You're missing the whole point. You're getting all defensive because you're using a bandpass setup. Has it ever occured to you that what you have, may not be the best for someone else?
> But I'm not going to have some guy who does not even have a sub in his TL tell me that mine can't sound good.
Somehow, you feel attacked. I see where the problem is coming from. You're decoding my messages all wrong.
> It sucks you don't know how to properly design a bandpass for anything but a one note wonder but don't hate the entire design because of your shortcomings.
Now you're really getting personal. Does it make you feel better to attack me?
> Tell me, what music dips down into the 20hz range and what human can hear it?
Techmaster PEB, Bass 305, Eurobass Express to name a few.
You fired the first shot and set the tone. I only responded. Then you back off and make it look like I'm the one doing the attacking. You're using a good strategy especially for a public forum but it still doesn't change the fact that you fired the first shot and you know exactly how you meant it. If you can get over it, we can have a good discussion.
I'll be fully honest here. Car audio is my least knowlegable subject. Before the TL I usually had something loud (15" CV stroker back in '95) in my GN. In that car, it seemed anything and everything sounded good, deep, and loud. I never learned much about it because I didn't have to. With the TL I'm having to learn more about car audio to get it to sound right.
But the plain fact is in my TL, the bandpass enclosure sounded the best for my type of music period. Don't try and make this out like I'm close minded and I think everyone listens to my type of music. I listen to everything including rap, country, rock, the occasional classical when I'm stuck in traffic and stressed, and other stuff that I won't admit to.
Techmaster PEB, Bass 305, Eurobass Express are not what I would call mainstream groups. So you found some oddballs for your side of the argument, congrats.
I'll gladly give up a little in the <30hz range for something that is more musical. I would love to have it all, that's what I'm hoping the IB will accomplish but for 99% of the music out there, this BP setup hits all the notes and it hits them very accurately. As I've said, I've only found one rap song that it wouldn't hit. And by wouldn't hit, it's clearly audible, it's just not as loud as it should be. On a 30hz test tone it makes the outside roof go crazy so again, it's good enough for just about any music.
10-06-2010, 09:08 PM
#50
Team Owner
> For a 25hz tone, I would probably do ported.
We agree! It's amazing!
> But for music in the normal musical zone
Here you're claiming a definition for "normal." Can't do that. It's different for everyone. Your normal may not be my normal.
>I've never heard one song other than that one Kanye West song that goes below 30hz.
You're saying that YOU haven't heard. Have you heard everything?
Pipe organs go down to 16 Hz. The B string on a bass guitar is 30.87 Hz, but if you want it to sound right, you'd want your system to respond to lower frequencies so that when the B string is played, it won't be too many dBs quieter than the other strings.
> I don't like exaggerated bass but I do like a little extra in the low regions
If you really think about it, you just contradicted yourself. But it's ok. Who doesn't love bass?
> it does sound better on some of the "tighter" country and rock stuff.
Bandpass enclosures are great for that kick drum.
> There are many times people assume I have 10s back there.
When you actually have...?
We agree! It's amazing!
> But for music in the normal musical zone
Here you're claiming a definition for "normal." Can't do that. It's different for everyone. Your normal may not be my normal.
>I've never heard one song other than that one Kanye West song that goes below 30hz.
You're saying that YOU haven't heard. Have you heard everything?
Pipe organs go down to 16 Hz. The B string on a bass guitar is 30.87 Hz, but if you want it to sound right, you'd want your system to respond to lower frequencies so that when the B string is played, it won't be too many dBs quieter than the other strings.
> I don't like exaggerated bass but I do like a little extra in the low regions
If you really think about it, you just contradicted yourself. But it's ok. Who doesn't love bass?
> it does sound better on some of the "tighter" country and rock stuff.
Bandpass enclosures are great for that kick drum.
> There are many times people assume I have 10s back there.
When you actually have...?
Of course I have not heard everything. But when my system has never missed a note (except for the one mentioned), am I really losing anything?
I have never said mine cuts off at 30hz. The test tone CD I have does not go below 30hz so I honestly can't say just how low they will play. At this frequency there is no falling off, they're still very strong.
A system capable of 16hz would be nice but you're talking about something out of the hearing range of most humans. I know feeling it in your body does add to the whole impact thing but again, am I really missing anything in a system that won't play below the human range of hearing?
I did not contradict myself. I don't like exaggerated bass in most of the bass frequencies but I like just a little extra in the low regions. To clarify, I don't like pure SQ cars because they sound too flat to me but on the other hand I don't like it when the bass is overdone either. Just a little boost in the lower end is good for me.
I have 2-12" W6s and they sound a lot different than you would expect out of the typical dual 12" subs. At 90hz they still sound great. Most 12s I've heard will obviously play at 90hz but they don't always sound good doing it.
And again, the output is amazing over the sealed and ported box. I had to cut the gains on my amp by 1/2 to match the mids. Excursion is practically non-existant. And of course, the original reason for doing the band-pass, it gets rid of all rattles in the rear of the car without having to tear it apart and dynamat everything. I was always chasing rattles with the other setups.
10-07-2010, 01:31 AM
#51
To clear up any confusion about the Image sub working in an "infinite baffle" , the answer is yes -- Matt over at ID has told me several times that all of their drivers work well in "infinite baffle". So why I am putting putting "infinite baffle" in quotes?!?! Because it is nearly impossible to achieve a true infinite baffle in a vehicle, an infinite baffle literally means installing a driver in a baffle that is infinitely tall / wide so that the rear waves never interfere with the front waves and that the driver does not load off of anything. So in a car the best we can do is place the driver in an enclosure that is equivalent or larger then the Vas of the driver (Vas being the volume required for the driver to act as if it was free air) , and by separating the rear waves of the driver as much as we can from the front waves (this is VERY difficult to do correctly!)
Point being , simply dropping the sub in the factory location is not good enough .. you can not complain about the sound quality / output of the driver when you have not done anything to give the driver what it needs. Now if you went through and sealed off the rear deck from the cabin of the car ( which in TL is a good deal of work , believe me I have done it!!!) you will notice a great deal of increase in output as well as frequency response. Sealing off the rear deck / deadening the car does not have to break the bank! Remember damping material like dynamat / damplifier / fatmat only tackle ONE of the noise issues we deal with in car stereo (and there is NO need to cover your car whole car with the stuff). Fiberglass insulation , silicone , hardboard , mass loaded vinyl , closed cell foam is also much needed ingredients to make a very "dead" car
.
(http://caraudiomag.com/articles/soun...ening-acura-tl)
Now as far as you guys arguing about low end frequency response, when competing these very low frequencies are VERY important. For example this MECA season, every show I competed in the judge used a track called "grandma's hands" and listened for a very subtle foot tap which was around 30hz. Last year when competing in IASCA the judges used a track that I cant remember , but basically there were a few moments in the song that went below 20hz. The judges are generally not listening for these frequencies as much as they are trying to feel them. Visceral Impact is a big deal and can really help improve the realism of the system. Now building a driver configuration that can reproduce these frequencies well is a whole different thing...a driver with lots of cone area and a low fs helps
A well designed and accurate system will play ANY type of music very well and at live concert levels! Whether it be country music , death metal or rap. Does not matter if you have 8s 10s 12s 15s or 18s , as long as the motor has control of the cone , the only audible difference will be that the larger drivers will naturally have a lower fs. Its a huge myth that big speakers are "slower" then smaller speakers, this is just hilarious to see people claim.
I will admit I have never seen a competition vehicle with a bandpass enclosure in it, however there is nothing wrong with bandpass enclosures when designed correctly. I do not feel comfortable saying that a bandpass enclosure will not sound good in car, I know a handful of people I respect that have designed and built them into cars that sounded no better or worse then a basic ported or sealed box. There are tons of home theater / pro audio guys that are bandpass gurus and can school me on the topic so I will leave it at that -- just do some research and you will see some crazy bandpass designs that these guys do to make great sound.
Hey "I hate cars" , I will be giving demos to whoever wants to take a listen at Acurafest, you can even bring your own CDs if you want! Sq cars are the most fun and dynamic to listen to, remember that flat frequency response does not equal SQ!
Point being , simply dropping the sub in the factory location is not good enough .. you can not complain about the sound quality / output of the driver when you have not done anything to give the driver what it needs. Now if you went through and sealed off the rear deck from the cabin of the car ( which in TL is a good deal of work , believe me I have done it!!!) you will notice a great deal of increase in output as well as frequency response. Sealing off the rear deck / deadening the car does not have to break the bank! Remember damping material like dynamat / damplifier / fatmat only tackle ONE of the noise issues we deal with in car stereo (and there is NO need to cover your car whole car with the stuff). Fiberglass insulation , silicone , hardboard , mass loaded vinyl , closed cell foam is also much needed ingredients to make a very "dead" car
.(http://caraudiomag.com/articles/soun...ening-acura-tl)
Now as far as you guys arguing about low end frequency response, when competing these very low frequencies are VERY important. For example this MECA season, every show I competed in the judge used a track called "grandma's hands" and listened for a very subtle foot tap which was around 30hz. Last year when competing in IASCA the judges used a track that I cant remember , but basically there were a few moments in the song that went below 20hz. The judges are generally not listening for these frequencies as much as they are trying to feel them. Visceral Impact is a big deal and can really help improve the realism of the system. Now building a driver configuration that can reproduce these frequencies well is a whole different thing...a driver with lots of cone area and a low fs helps
A well designed and accurate system will play ANY type of music very well and at live concert levels! Whether it be country music , death metal or rap. Does not matter if you have 8s 10s 12s 15s or 18s , as long as the motor has control of the cone , the only audible difference will be that the larger drivers will naturally have a lower fs. Its a huge myth that big speakers are "slower" then smaller speakers, this is just hilarious to see people claim.
I will admit I have never seen a competition vehicle with a bandpass enclosure in it, however there is nothing wrong with bandpass enclosures when designed correctly. I do not feel comfortable saying that a bandpass enclosure will not sound good in car, I know a handful of people I respect that have designed and built them into cars that sounded no better or worse then a basic ported or sealed box. There are tons of home theater / pro audio guys that are bandpass gurus and can school me on the topic so I will leave it at that -- just do some research and you will see some crazy bandpass designs that these guys do to make great sound.
Hey "I hate cars" , I will be giving demos to whoever wants to take a listen at Acurafest, you can even bring your own CDs if you want! Sq cars are the most fun and dynamic to listen to, remember that flat frequency response does not equal SQ!
Last edited by Neel; 10-07-2010 at 01:41 AM. Reason: Clarification
10-09-2010, 04:24 PM
#52
>I knew better to bite because I saw where this discussion would end up.
I wasn't intentionally setting a trap. I just can't stand misinformation.
> you fired the first shot and you know exactly how you meant it. If you can get over it, we can have a good discussion.
I really do not think much can be gained by upgrading the stock subwoofer without fixing the root cause of the problem. When I saw this post, I wanted to know what the OP meant by "1000x better." But you're right in that I shouldn't have said that I didn't believe the OP. I was just trying to think of a title for my post. In some forums, it's the title that gets people to click on the post, but here it doesn't matter.
You still made several comments aimed directly at me and made fun of me. What's the point of that?
> in my TL, the bandpass enclosure sounded the best for my type of music period.
I am all for the customer getting what they want.
> Don't try and make this out like I'm close minded and I think everyone listens to my type of music.
But you said, "Tell me, what music dips down into the 20hz range and what human can hear it?" and "I've never heard one song other than that one Kanye West song that goes below 30hz."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically saying that music doesn't have any significant information below 30Hz, and even if it did, we wouldn't be able to appreciate it. That is so, so not true.
> rap, country, rock, the occasional classical
Rap and classical have low bass worth reproducing.
> you found some oddballs for your side of the argument, congrats.
There you go again, telling me about my preferences. I don't listen to that kind of music all the time, but when I do, the pleasure of hearing 25 Hz is awesome. It's something you have to experience to understand. Who knows, you might even like it.
> I'll gladly give up a little in the <30hz range for something that is more musical.
Musical? What you're willing to give up is your call. I don't believe you have to give anything up, other than efficiency and maybe trunk volume, things that won't affect the way music sounds.
> I would love to have it all, that's what I'm hoping the IB will accomplish
I'd love to hear about after you've tried it. I predict that you won't like the results =)
> for 99% of the music out there, this BP setup hits all the notes and it hits them very accurately.
I disagree. I think you're just not aware of the low frequency information present in a lot of music, and what do you mean by accurately?
> But when my system has never missed a note (except for the one mentioned), am I really losing anything?
How can you know if you haven't missed something when you can't reproduce it?
> I have never said mine cuts off at 30hz. The test tone CD I have does not go below 30hz so I honestly can't say just how low they will play. At this frequency there is no falling off, they're still very strong.
The response curve of a bandpass enclosure says it all. For the example I gave, there is at least a 17 dB difference between the passband and 25 Hz. 17 dB is a HUGE difference. The difference between 30Hz and the passband is 12 dB, a 4 fold difference in power. Let's say you're playing 60 Hz at 200 watts. It'd take 800 watts to make 30 Hz play at the same SPL.
> A system capable of 16hz would be nice but you're talking about something out of the hearing range of most humans.
Actually, humans can hear (with their ear) down to 12 Hz and feel down to 4 Hz. 20-20k are just figures tossed around for who knows why.
Also, in a car, cabin gain enables you to easily design systems that reach into the teens.
> I have 2-12" W6s
You have two 12s in a bandpass enclosure that make people think you have 10s?
> they sound a lot different than you would expect out of the typical dual 12" subs.
What do you mean by that?
> the output is amazing over the sealed and ported box. I had to cut the gains on my amp by 1/2 to match the mids.
That's the whole point of a bandpass enclosure. You get the most SPL for your watt, but the drawbacks are increased group delay and peaks in the frequency response.
> Excursion is practically non-existant.
This is a characteristic of bandpass enclosures.
> And of course, the original reason for doing the band-pass, it gets rid of all rattles in the rear of the car
How does a bandpass design help you here?
I wasn't intentionally setting a trap. I just can't stand misinformation.
> you fired the first shot and you know exactly how you meant it. If you can get over it, we can have a good discussion.
I really do not think much can be gained by upgrading the stock subwoofer without fixing the root cause of the problem. When I saw this post, I wanted to know what the OP meant by "1000x better." But you're right in that I shouldn't have said that I didn't believe the OP. I was just trying to think of a title for my post. In some forums, it's the title that gets people to click on the post, but here it doesn't matter.
You still made several comments aimed directly at me and made fun of me. What's the point of that?
> in my TL, the bandpass enclosure sounded the best for my type of music period.
I am all for the customer getting what they want.
> Don't try and make this out like I'm close minded and I think everyone listens to my type of music.
But you said, "Tell me, what music dips down into the 20hz range and what human can hear it?" and "I've never heard one song other than that one Kanye West song that goes below 30hz."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically saying that music doesn't have any significant information below 30Hz, and even if it did, we wouldn't be able to appreciate it. That is so, so not true.
> rap, country, rock, the occasional classical
Rap and classical have low bass worth reproducing.
> you found some oddballs for your side of the argument, congrats.
There you go again, telling me about my preferences. I don't listen to that kind of music all the time, but when I do, the pleasure of hearing 25 Hz is awesome. It's something you have to experience to understand. Who knows, you might even like it.
> I'll gladly give up a little in the <30hz range for something that is more musical.
Musical? What you're willing to give up is your call. I don't believe you have to give anything up, other than efficiency and maybe trunk volume, things that won't affect the way music sounds.
> I would love to have it all, that's what I'm hoping the IB will accomplish
I'd love to hear about after you've tried it. I predict that you won't like the results =)
> for 99% of the music out there, this BP setup hits all the notes and it hits them very accurately.
I disagree. I think you're just not aware of the low frequency information present in a lot of music, and what do you mean by accurately?
> But when my system has never missed a note (except for the one mentioned), am I really losing anything?
How can you know if you haven't missed something when you can't reproduce it?
> I have never said mine cuts off at 30hz. The test tone CD I have does not go below 30hz so I honestly can't say just how low they will play. At this frequency there is no falling off, they're still very strong.
The response curve of a bandpass enclosure says it all. For the example I gave, there is at least a 17 dB difference between the passband and 25 Hz. 17 dB is a HUGE difference. The difference between 30Hz and the passband is 12 dB, a 4 fold difference in power. Let's say you're playing 60 Hz at 200 watts. It'd take 800 watts to make 30 Hz play at the same SPL.
> A system capable of 16hz would be nice but you're talking about something out of the hearing range of most humans.
Actually, humans can hear (with their ear) down to 12 Hz and feel down to 4 Hz. 20-20k are just figures tossed around for who knows why.
Also, in a car, cabin gain enables you to easily design systems that reach into the teens.
> I have 2-12" W6s
You have two 12s in a bandpass enclosure that make people think you have 10s?
> they sound a lot different than you would expect out of the typical dual 12" subs.
What do you mean by that?
> the output is amazing over the sealed and ported box. I had to cut the gains on my amp by 1/2 to match the mids.
That's the whole point of a bandpass enclosure. You get the most SPL for your watt, but the drawbacks are increased group delay and peaks in the frequency response.
> Excursion is practically non-existant.
This is a characteristic of bandpass enclosures.
> And of course, the original reason for doing the band-pass, it gets rid of all rattles in the rear of the car
How does a bandpass design help you here?
10-09-2010, 06:25 PM
#54
> Its a huge myth that big speakers are "slower" then smaller speakers, this is just hilarious to see people claim.
I think people get that impression because larger drivers have less midbass output. People often don't realize that even the midrange frequencies influence the "tightness" of a sound, so if your kick drum doesn't sound "tight," you might have to adjust your midrange frequencies.
But there is some truth to it. An ideal driver should be as light as possible. A bigger driver has a bigger cone. Bigger cones have more mass. It takes more time to get more mass moving.
> I will admit I have never seen a competition vehicle with a bandpass enclosure in it, however there is nothing wrong with bandpass enclosures when designed correctly.
From my understanding, there is debate as to whether the increased group delay of bandpass enclosures, is detectable by humans.
>I do not feel comfortable saying that a bandpass enclosure will not sound good in car
And I do not make such a claim (that bandpass enclosures don't sound "good"). I only said that the design would not work for my requirements.
BTW "I hate cars," I may be "abnormal" for pursuing low bass, but check this guy out.
http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/bass_list1/index.html
The way I feel about him, is probably the way you feel about me. =)
I think people get that impression because larger drivers have less midbass output. People often don't realize that even the midrange frequencies influence the "tightness" of a sound, so if your kick drum doesn't sound "tight," you might have to adjust your midrange frequencies.
But there is some truth to it. An ideal driver should be as light as possible. A bigger driver has a bigger cone. Bigger cones have more mass. It takes more time to get more mass moving.
> I will admit I have never seen a competition vehicle with a bandpass enclosure in it, however there is nothing wrong with bandpass enclosures when designed correctly.
From my understanding, there is debate as to whether the increased group delay of bandpass enclosures, is detectable by humans.
>I do not feel comfortable saying that a bandpass enclosure will not sound good in car
And I do not make such a claim (that bandpass enclosures don't sound "good"). I only said that the design would not work for my requirements.
BTW "I hate cars," I may be "abnormal" for pursuing low bass, but check this guy out.
http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/bass_list1/index.html
The way I feel about him, is probably the way you feel about me. =)
10-10-2010, 01:41 PM
#55
Team Owner
I checked out Neel's car yesterday at Acurafest and as I thought it was amazing. In fact, I think I spend the majority of acurafest at that car. Thanks for the demo and all of your time explaining things to me. It was a lot of information but I know the direction I want to go with mine now. I know the weaknesses in my system now.
I suggest to anyone looking fo a combo of great SQ and SPL to check this car out when you get a chance. It will completely change any misconceptions anyone might have had of two 15" drivers and the way they sound. They covered the entire spectrum of bass flawlessly. The first couple of songs we played didn't have a lot of low end bass but they played the upper frequencies so well and accurate that I was surprised at the impact of the low end on the next songs. It really will play every type of music perfectly.
The horns are definately different in a TL and sounded great. The midrange drivers vented to the outside were neat. It did make for an odd sound on the outside of the car when giving demos lol. The stage sounded like it was right in front of me. You could picture the guitar being played and the vocals as a person standing right in front of you.
There's so much more I could say about the sound and the incredible installation but it's really just perfect.
I suggest to anyone looking fo a combo of great SQ and SPL to check this car out when you get a chance. It will completely change any misconceptions anyone might have had of two 15" drivers and the way they sound. They covered the entire spectrum of bass flawlessly. The first couple of songs we played didn't have a lot of low end bass but they played the upper frequencies so well and accurate that I was surprised at the impact of the low end on the next songs. It really will play every type of music perfectly.
The horns are definately different in a TL and sounded great. The midrange drivers vented to the outside were neat. It did make for an odd sound on the outside of the car when giving demos lol. The stage sounded like it was right in front of me. You could picture the guitar being played and the vocals as a person standing right in front of you.
There's so much more I could say about the sound and the incredible installation but it's really just perfect.
11-29-2010, 08:01 PM
#56
Instructor
I checked out Neel's car yesterday at Acurafest and as I thought it was amazing. In fact, I think I spend the majority of acurafest at that car. Thanks for the demo and all of your time explaining things to me. It was a lot of information but I know the direction I want to go with mine now. I know the weaknesses in my system now.
I suggest to anyone looking fo a combo of great SQ and SPL to check this car out when you get a chance. It will completely change any misconceptions anyone might have had of two 15" drivers and the way they sound. They covered the entire spectrum of bass flawlessly. The first couple of songs we played didn't have a lot of low end bass but they played the upper frequencies so well and accurate that I was surprised at the impact of the low end on the next songs. It really will play every type of music perfectly.
The horns are definately different in a TL and sounded great. The midrange drivers vented to the outside were neat. It did make for an odd sound on the outside of the car when giving demos lol. The stage sounded like it was right in front of me. You could picture the guitar being played and the vocals as a person standing right in front of you.
There's so much more I could say about the sound and the incredible installation but it's really just perfect.
I suggest to anyone looking fo a combo of great SQ and SPL to check this car out when you get a chance. It will completely change any misconceptions anyone might have had of two 15" drivers and the way they sound. They covered the entire spectrum of bass flawlessly. The first couple of songs we played didn't have a lot of low end bass but they played the upper frequencies so well and accurate that I was surprised at the impact of the low end on the next songs. It really will play every type of music perfectly.
The horns are definately different in a TL and sounded great. The midrange drivers vented to the outside were neat. It did make for an odd sound on the outside of the car when giving demos lol. The stage sounded like it was right in front of me. You could picture the guitar being played and the vocals as a person standing right in front of you.
There's so much more I could say about the sound and the incredible installation but it's really just perfect.
Thanks.
02-28-2011, 11:53 PM
#58
man ya'll 2 killed this tread. anyone with any updates and pics. im interested in getting one for my car as well.
01-03-2012, 10:13 PM
#59
What do you mean you bent the lower hole? And are you using this with the stock amp?
I just put in ID8 sub from Image dynamics. I always loved their speakers and took a chance on their ID8 sub.
It fits on the stock location with very little modding. I just took pliers and bent the lower hole and sub fit like a charm.
the subs plastic magnet cover comes off very easy with a twist and it sounds 1000x better than the stocker.
But I will have to say I wish I went with a 12" in the trunk with fiberglass enclosure I saw on ebay. 8" just doesn't cut it when you've been listening to 12" sub all your life.
It fits on the stock location with very little modding. I just took pliers and bent the lower hole and sub fit like a charm.
the subs plastic magnet cover comes off very easy with a twist and it sounds 1000x better than the stocker.
But I will have to say I wish I went with a 12" in the trunk with fiberglass enclosure I saw on ebay. 8" just doesn't cut it when you've been listening to 12" sub all your life.
03-31-2012, 02:07 PM
#60
07 TL-S
Can people chime in about what works or worked for them. Pics would be great!! And better if you're in the bay area and willing to give a sample !!! I'm just trying to to a remove and replace. Keeping the factory amp. Thx.
04-23-2013, 10:33 PM
#62
7th Gear
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Santa Ana
Posts: 7
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Does anyone have specifications for the stock sub? Would Alpine type R's fit? Thanks in advance.
http://www.abt.com/product/53579/Alp...23D&adtype=pla
http://www.abt.com/product/53579/Alp...23D&adtype=pla
06-25-2013, 04:33 PM
#63
KCCO
JinNjuice, according to this thread the mounting depth we have to work with on the TL is 3.375" and that Alpine Type R sub is 4.5" deep (sorry it's been a long time and I can't remember how to insert the link without the whole url showing.) 1/2way down the page you'll see the specs for the TL from a member named pdphill. https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-audio-bluetooth-electronics-navigation-94/els-stock-speaker-specs-size-imped-depth-556521/
06-25-2013, 11:19 PM
#64
KCCO
After reading a bit deeper into the thread in the URL I posted, although the mounting clearance is 3.375", there is apparently a cutout that can be enlarged to fit a deeper sub, so that Alpine sub may actually do the trick!
06-25-2013, 11:21 PM
#65
Suzuka Master
your not going to be happy
06-28-2013, 07:16 PM
#67
Suzuka Master
That is correct
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