kennyc

I am in the TVandNav2Go's groupbuy and I would like to see where people mount their rear view camera. I searched the archive and did not find much.

I do not want to do the license plate frame. I have a nice frame already.

Please post your pics of your rear view camera. Thanks!

BTW, we need 4 more people to hit the $125 mark. So if you are interested it might be a good time to buy.

kennyc

Btw, here's the link to the group buy...

https://acurazine.com/forums/sponsored-sales-group-buys-10/%24125-tvandnav2gos-feb-navi-video-conversion-%24125-ends-march-31st-331406/

Ron A

I found this thread with a search for camera. Moving to Navi subforum.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130087

kennyc

Yeah.. that was one of the two I was able to find... there must be some more folks who have them.

moreace

Been through this.... nothing great has been done in this field. I even tried the license plate cam and it doesn't fit under the trunk lip so it is good that you wrote it off early.

chfields

If you need a camera to backup....maybe you shouldn't be driving

pikabb

That was a pretty idiotic comment. Because the man wants to be extra cautious about running over a child or scraping his bumper on an object hidden by the TL's large rear end, he shouldn't be driving? So I guess anyone that buys the RL w/ backup camera should automatically have their license taken away? It's amazing that on a forum where members are supposed to be helping eachother out, people find it necessary to post senseless comments either to make themselves feel good or to make others feel stupid.

I was actually also looking into doing the same exact thing as kennyc (rear view camera and Dom's unit) and was hoping that someone would reply with some comments on cameras they are using. On crutchfield I only saw two units, one by Eclipse and one by Pioneer so I was wondering if anyone used either one of those or maybe a different one. Thanks.

kennyc

if you got nothing constructive to say... maybe you should STFU.

To pikabb:

I will install the backup camera either way. There are a bunch of them on ebay. I found 3 potential mounting locations and am trying to find out which one works best.

You can also be sure I will do a write-up.

chfields

Don't forget the training wheels........

pikabb

Do you feel better about yourself now? Like a big man?

kennyc

hehe.. q-tip here has a sense of humor.

I won't forget my training wheels if you don't forget to drink your ensure!

kennyc

That's uncalled for. But then again, it's too much to expect from you isn't it?

If making fun of someone with a legitimate question online is the only thing that can give you a hard-on at your age. I can sympathize. Otherwise it's pathetic that someone with your age post the crap you're posting. It's just plan sad.

One can get older, but not wiser.

moreace

Might you be willing to share your 3 install points, then maybe we can all brainstorm to find something that works great and may not have be thought of before.

I actually got and MDX camera at one point.. that was a bust, wrong harness and everything.

Too bad we don't have a keyhole in the trunk. If you have a-spec you could just but a balck camera in the black part of the bumper (wouldn't be too protected if hit though).

kennyc

1. use a bracket that mounts behind the plate. camera sits between the plate lights and the plate. - probably easiest. Not the cleanest.

2. under the bumper

3. I saw a picture online and someone drilled a small hole in the license plate and mount the camera BEHIND THE PLATE! (might have legality issues)

I'm still looking at other possibilities. Let me know what you think.

johnvo

44 years old and still has no manners. Sheesh.

I'll tell you guys this...I wish I had a backup camera, then maybe I would have seen the 30" high concrete pole I backed into the other week. You sure as hell couldn't see it in any of the mirrors or while looking back through the rear window. I'm lucky it wasn't a small child.

Waiting for the "Learn how to drive" comment to resurface.

kennyc

chfields does not even own a TL. He is just trolling.

amarpawar

k, this is my fantasy, but my ideal mounting place would be in that glass dome on the roof where the XM antenna is located (Obviously I don't use XM and that glass/plastic cover will have to be transperent). I think that is the ideal place cause u probably could get the best view of the rear from the top. Now here's the clencer, the cam should be on a rotating mount so when you turn on the turn signals the cam will pivot to the right or the left so you could even see your blind spot while you r driving.

I know it seems a lot but someday I might do it on my TL

datmrman

The XM dome is too high I think. You want be able to see anything small thats next to the bumper for instance. Depending on the angle, not sure if you will be able to have a clear view of the end of the car (trunk/spoiler may be in the way). The cam on a rotating mount is a sweet idea though!

KJSmitty

My plan is to install a keyhole / flush mount camera behind the license plate then drill a small (probably 1/2 to 3/4 inch hole) in the plate. I really don't think legally one would have an issue as long as the "hole" in the plate did not distract from or alter the numbers/ID etc.

I'm one of the latest Group Buy guys and have yet to even order the navi conversion unit but have already purchased one of the cheapest cameras available with decent specs. Should have it by the weekend and will post my results on resolution/angle visibility etc..

Definitely would be nice to have others chime in on their camera choice/locations. Nothings better for making a decision than good old reviews by members looking for the same results.

The sooner I get the camera installed the sooner I can remove my TL "training wheels"..... Of course the training wheels were actually installed for my forward movement - the camera will finally allow me to actually use the "R" position on the shifter... Parking has been a real B....

pikabb

Sound's great. I can't wait to see some results. Do you mind sharing which camera you purchased and where you got it from? Hopefully this thread could finally provide in depth information/reviews/installs of backup cameras. Thanks

kennyc

That was my 3rd option. It looks pretty good but again, I just don't know the legality of it. Another concern being that if the camera is wide angle, would mounting it behind the plate obstruct the view? Unless you're planning to flush mount the camera to the plate. In that case it will not just be a small hole.

Just to get people here started, the smallest camera I can find so far is called Mito "Bumble Bee" backup camera. This camera has separate lense and board assembly so it's a lot smaller than regular flush mount cameras.

http://www.mitocorp.com/html/backupc...ebee_specs.htm

Here's a link to a site that sells it.

http://www.simplycheap.com/mito20-eyls2lp.html

This happens to be the cheapest site I found so far for this camera. But I don't know if I trust this site though.

kennyc

My fantasy is to mount a backup camera somewhere within the trunk lid and mount an forward facing infrared camera toward the front. AKA nightvision.

That will be awesome!

KJSmitty

Found this info while searching etc.. Somewhat basic yet has some good points.


I hope this guide helps you with your purchase of a quality rear view camera system. Please note that I've tried to provide accurate information in simple, non-technical, layman's terms. While many others may try to baffle you with their... you know what... I want you to understand exactly what to look for in a rear view camera system, so you'll have the best system available, and avoid making the mistake of purchasing something that can be dangerous. Please contact me with any questions you might have! -Steve

Automatic System Switching
Possibly the most important feature to look for when purchasing a rear view camera system, is that system's ability to switch on automatically whenever the vehicle's transmission is placed in reverse. This is accomplished by connecting a single wire to the vehicle's backup light circuit, sending a signal to the rear view camera system, causing it to switch on without any action by the operator.

Many so-called 'rear view camera systems' don't have this feature, and will require you to manually switch the system on every time you want to see behind you. The higher end systems (any true 'rear view camera system') will have this ability to switch on automatically, in addition to being turned on manually any time using the monitor's front panel power button (or wireless remote control, if so equipped).

Since it's very inconvenient and extremely unsafe for the motor vehicle operator to be required to switch the system on manually every time he or she wants to back up, it's imperative that you never purchase a rear view camera system without the ability to switch on automatically. If the system you're considering doesn't clearly list this feature, it almost certainly doesn't have this feature. Never purchase a rear view camera system without this feature.


Mirror Image Capability
A rear view camera system should have the capability to produce a 'mirror' (or 'reverse') image through the camera and/or monitor. Many of the systems sold (especially those on eBay) don't have this capability. It doesn't matter whether the camera produces a 'mirror' image, or the monitor reverses the image left to right, or as on some high end systems, both the camera and monitor can switch between 'normal' and 'mirror' images.

Why do you want a 'mirror' image? In order to see the same type of image that you would see in a rear view mirror, the camera and/or monitor must be capable of reversing the image produced. This capability will provide the same type of image through a rear view camera system that you would see if you were looking into a rear view mirror, and that's exactly what you want for safe operation. Many high end systems not only allow you to select between a 'normal' and 'mirror' image, but also permit you to 'flip' the picture vertically for additional camera mounting options.

If a system doesn't specifically list this feature, then it almost certainly doesn't have this feature. Never even consider purchasing a rear view camera system that doesn't have this feature.


Wide Angle Field of View
The field of view provided by any camera is determined by a combination of image sensor (see "CCD vs. CMOS Image Sensor" below) size and lens focal length. The larger the image sensor, the wider the possible field of view. However, a larger image sensor does not necessarily guarantee a wider field of view. Many rear view camera systems utilize a 1/4" image sensor, and provide only a 60 to 90 degree field of view. While a 90 degree field of view may be sufficient for some smaller vehicles, a 110 to 120 degree field of view is preferred. You should absolutely avoid any system that produces lower than a 90 degree field of view. Most high quality rear view cameras that utilize a 1/3" image sensor produce a 110 to 120 degree field of view --- that is ideal for most applications.

On the other hand, there are some rear view systems advertised with 150, 160, 180 or even 210 degree fields of view. These super wide field of view cameras are not intended for use on rear view camera systems, and will generally produce a 'fish-eye' image that will be extremely distorted and very dangerous to use as part of a rear view camera system. A few very rare specialized rear view cameras are designed with 150 or 160 degree fields of view, but these are specialty units and are very expensive (not generally available for everyday use).

I can't emphasize strongly enough that you should never use a camera that provides a 'fish-eye' view --- you will eventually back into or over something or someone!


CCD vs. CMOS Image Sensor
The two types of image sensors that are available for rear view (backup) camera systems are the CCD ("charge coupled device") and CMOS ("complementary metal oxide semiconductor"). The type of image sensor that your rear view camera system uses will be the most important factor in determining picture quality. Besides the overall resolution, a camera that utilizes a CCD image sensor will provide significantly better images under very low and very bright lighting conditions.

All except the lowest quality consumer digital photographic and video products utilize CCD image sensors. All professional digital photographic and video equipment utilize CCD image sensors. Although there are some reasonably high quality CMOS image sensors, no CMOS image sensor will deliver the quality image that a CCD image sensor will provide. Many lower priced (and some more expensive) systems use the less expensive and inferior CMOS image sensor.

Given the option, you should always select a rear view camera system that utilizes a high quality CCD image sensor from a well known manufacturer. Sharp CCD image sensors are among the best available. If the system you're considering purchasing doesn't state that it utilizes a "CCD" image sensor, then it almost certainly doesn't.


Weatherproof Camera, Cables & Connectors
Remember, a camera mounted on the exterior of a motor vehicle will be subjected to more than just water. Such a camera may be exposed to a wide variety of elements, including water, snow, ice, salt, road grime, oil, dust, detergents, and high pressure washes. Just as the camera can be exposed to these elements, so are the exterior cables and connectors.

Weatherproof cables and connectors should also be used for all exterior installations. Many systems sold (particularly on eBay) utilize RCA type connectors for exterior connections. Stay away from these systems, as RCA connectors (the same type of connectors found on most televisions and VCR's) are not weatherproof --- they should never be used for exterior connections.

Exterior connections should always be made by weatherproof connectors --- most weatherproof connectors screw together, so they can't accidentally come unplugged. These screw together weatherproof connectors are also usually available on extension cables that can be connected and disconnected easily. This is especially useful when using a rear view camera system with a trailer and tow vehicle combination.

Many systems include interior RCA connections. These interior connections are not subject to any of the elements found on the exterior of a motor vehicle, and are perfectly acceptable. In fact, these interior RCA connections can be useful for adding additional cameras (even those from another manufacturer), or for connecting other video and/or audio devices.

Never purchase a rear view camera system that utilizes RCA type connectors for exterior connections. These connectors are not designed for exposure to the elements, and they will eventually fail.


Infrared Night Vision
This is probably one of the least understood features available, and yet, it is one of the most important features. Although a high quality camera (especially a high quality CCD camera) can provide a picture under a wide variety of lighting conditions (including very low light), it can't provide a clear picture in near or total darkness. That's where the infrared night vision illumination LED's (light emitting diodes) come in.

On a high quality night vision equipped camera, the infrared LED's turn on automatically whenever the ambient (background) light drops to a level that's too low for the image sensor to produce a high quality picture. The infrared LED's operate at a light frequency that is well above the human eye's ability to see, but the image sensor in the camera is designed to detect this light just like the visible light that we can see.

The primary difference between visible and infrared light is seen when using a color rear view camera system. On a monochrome (often referred to as "black and white") rear view camera system, there is little difference seen in the image. However, since infrared light doesn't produce colors that are visible to the human eye, all color systems will produce a monochromatic image at night.

One big difference between a high quality rear view camera and a lower quality one, is its ability to illuminate the area seen by the camera. Ideally, the infrared illuminators will illuminate the entire field of view produced by the camera, and will illuminate out to a distance of at least 20 feet from the camera. The higher end systems will typically illuminate out to a distance of 30 to 50 feet from the camera.

While the number of infrared LED's may or may not be important (just as with light bulbs, various infrared LED's have higher or lower light intensities), the total light output and the camera's sensitivity to infrared light, will determine the overall performance of the camera's night vision capabilities. Some sellers will make ridiculously exaggerated night vision claims (no on-board infrared illuminators will extend beyond approximately 50 feet), and these claims should be ignored as nothing more than sales hype.

Never consider purchasing a rear view camera system that does not include infrared night vision illumination. The infrared night vision illuminators should provide a minimum of 10 feet of illumination, and 20 to 30 feet or more of illumination is strongly recommended.


Automotive Power Source
One of the most serious questions for most users of these systems, isn't whether or not the system they purchase will work with their vehicle --- it's how well and how long will it work with their vehicle? Many of the lower quality systems (including many sold on eBay) do not include any type of voltage regulator or filtering circuit. The lack of such a circuit will cause the constant varying voltage produced by the vehicle's electrical system to either damage the system, or at a minimum, produce serious variations in picture quality.

If the system you're considering doesn't specifically state that it has a voltage regulator or filter, then it probably doesn't.

Nearly all rear view camera systems will work on any vehicle that operates from 12 volts DC --- that's nearly every late model car, pickup truck, sport utility vehicle, recreational vehicle, and trailer. However, there are exceptions to this rule, including some specialty vehicles, as well as many commercial and military vehicles. Some rear view camera systems are capable of operating at a variety of voltages, usually either 12 to 24 volts DC, or 12 to 32 volts DC.

Some rear view camera systems include optional voltage regulators that can be added for use on those vehicles that operate from the higher voltages (usually 24 or 32 volts DC). This option is necessary if you plan to install the system on a vehicle that operates from one of these higher operating voltages.


Audio Monitoring
Audio capability can be helpful when the driver needs the assistance of a helper while backing. While you may or may not require audio, it can also be useful when a camera is being used to monitor the interior of a trailer (carrying people or animals). While some systems include audio, others do not. If the description does not specifically state that audio is included, chances are it's not.

The only disadvantage to audio is that in order for the microphone within the camera to receive sound from outside the camera housing, there needs to be a small hole leading to the outside world. While the higher quality cameras with audio are designed to keep water out during normal use, there is a possibility that high pressure spray from a car wash (or other source) could possibly enter the camera housing.

Most of the higher quality rear view cameras that have audio house the microphone within a sealed compartment that is separate from that which houses the camera and/or locate the microphone hole on the back side of the camera (the side that faces toward the vehicle), to prevent water from being forced into the microphone hole.


Types of Monitors
Although there are several sizes, a wide variety of quality, and many different features, there are essentially two different types of monitors available --- these are CRT (cathode ray tube --- commonly referred to as a "picture tube") and LCD (liquid crystal display) monitors. Most (if not all) color rear view camera systems will use an LCD type monitor. Most (if not all) monochrome (black and white) rear view camera systems will use a CRT type monitor.

The LCD monitors are most commonly available in 5" to 5.7" (measured diagonally) and 7" to 7.2" (measured diagonally) screen sizes. These are sometimes referred to by their generic screen sizes, as just 5 or 7 inch, leaving off the decimal point. Of the available LCD type monitors, the TFT-LCD (thin film transistor - liquid crystal display) is significantly better than the LCD type. If the seller does not clearly specify that the monitor is the TFT-LCD type, chances are it's not.

When selecting a rear view system that uses an LCD type monitor, always choose the TFT-LCD type monitor for the best picture under the wide variety of lighting conditions encountered while operating a motor vehicle.

The CRT type monitors found with most monochrome rear view camera systems come in two basic types --- 'gray screen' (resembles an old 'black and white' television screen) or 'green screen' (the monitor actually produces a picture with a green hue). Neither of these have any overwhelming advantages or disadvantages, although some people do have a preference. The idea behind the 'green screen' monitor is that the color green is easier on the eyes in darkness, and as with military night vision equipment, produces an image that makes it easier to discern variations in shades of color, especially at night.

The LCD type monitors are significantly smaller and lighter than the CRT type monitors, making it easier to mount them in smaller vehicles. The larger CRT type monitors must usually be mounted on top of the dashboard, the transmission hump, hung from overhead, or occasionally mounted into the dashboard. The smaller LCD type monitors can be mounted in any of these locations, as well as on the face of the dashboard, on the sun visor, hung in place of the rear view mirror, or many other locations (depending upon the specific vehicle).

Avoid those rear view systems that use anything smaller than a 5" monitor. The only exception to this rule are the systems that have a monitor contained within a rear view mirror that mounts over or in place of a vehicle's rear view mirror (a 3.5" or larger monitor is acceptable for use with those systems).


Types of Cameras
There are two common types of cameras used for rear view camera systems. These are the 'surface' (or 'standard') mount and the 'flush' (or 'keyhole') type cameras. Each type of camera has its own specific advantages and disadvantages, and each is designed for a specific type of use.

Most larger vehicles are best suited to the surface mount camera, which can be attached to any flat (or near flat) surface (and most other surfaces utilizing a variety of mounting options and brackets). These cameras are the type most often observed mounted high on the rear of a vehicle, aimed down at approximately 45 degrees. This mounting position provides a commanding view of the area behind the vehicle, and because of the downward angle, provides excellent depth perception. This type of camera is by far the best choice for larger vehicles, including recreational vehicles, trailers, busses, and all commercial vehicles.

On many passenger vehicles, pick-up trucks, and sport utility vehicles, the 'flush' (or 'keyhole') type camera is the preferred choice. This type of camera mounts through a hole in the body of the vehicle, and provides a view that is more or less directly level with the road surface (the better 'flush' mount cameras include rings that permit slight angling of the camera). While this type of camera does not provide the degree of depth perception provided by the 'surface' mount camera (because it can't be angled down to the same degree), it is well suited to passenger vehicles and provides a much cleaner and unobtrusive installation, since the only part of the camera that is visible is the lens cover and bezel.

Both types of cameras are available with infrared night vision capabilities, although availability varies from one system to another. In most cases, the night vision capability of 'flush' mount cameras will provide less illumination distance than an equal quality 'surface' mount camera (this is due to the limited number of infrared LED's that can be positioned within the 'flush' mount camera housing). While audio is available on many of the 'surface' mount cameras, I'm not aware of any 'flush' mount cameras that include audio.


Wired vs. Wireless
While the picture produced by a high quality wireless system will be good most of the time, and certainly sufficient for a rear view system, every wireless device (every one!) is susceptible to interference. Because a wireless system transmits a video image through the air, instead of via a cable, there can be some interference from a variety of sources, including electrical interference, high power radio and television transmitters, and many other sources encountered as the vehicle moves.

Think of the difference in quality between the images produced by an old television antenna on the roof, versus a modern cable television signal. The mere fact that the video image must be converted to a radio signal, transmitted through the air, and converted from a radio signal back to a video image at the receiver and monitor, means that the possibility for signal degradation is a serious consideration.

One serious consideration should be that most of the wireless systems sold (on eBay and elsewhere) are total and complete garbage. Most don't provide the 'mirror' image (see "Mirror Image Capability" above). Most are not weatherproof. Most have directional antennas on the camera and receiver that must be aimed directly at each other. Most have antennas that are easily broken during normal use.

I personally prefer a wired system. There is only one type of wireless system that I would ever personally consider purchasing or selling. Check the specifications of any wireless system you are considering purchasing very carefully.

audi_to_TL

iTrader: (2)

Not sure if this camera has all of the qualities that make up the perfect rear view camera system but I found it while browsing the discountcaraudio site.

http://www.discountcarstereo.com/detail.aspx?ID=559

kennyc

That one looks pretty good. The only thing is to make sure this thing is taking the mirrored image instead of standard.

I might get this one as it seems I can still use my current plate cover over it.

AcurasGhost

I like this camera the most out of all the ones I saw. I've been over probably like 10 sites, and this looks the best. But we def. need to see if it is the mirror image kind.

Here's other cam's if the one above doesn't satisfy one's taste...

Small Bullet Camera
Mito Camera
Quality Mobile Video.com's Camera's
Pioneer's New Camera

Kracker

I was looking at the Pioneer, but I was going to get it off of E-Bay.

kennyc

emailed them yesterday and have not heard back from them.

sequoia

http://www.autotoys.com/x/catalog/

has a lot of them (review cameras) that seem to be a lot cheaper. are they any good?

pikabb

I know that Dom mentioned in one of his earlier posts that he sells only one backup camera because it is the best. I wonder if he would be interested in doing a group buy like he does with his DVD/Video Converter. According to the group buy thread he won't be back from vacation until the 27th, but maybe at that time we could find out. It already seems like there are a good number of people interested in buying them.

KJSmitty

Well, I received my backup camera in the mail yesterday. I wasn't going to post the model number until I could give it a review.


PYLE "PLCM20" Cost: $59

Overall, for the price it's an OK camera... But

The PLCM20 is a 1/3 CMOS color camera, not a CCD. (CCD's will give better picture quality overall but are 3-4 times the cost).

- Picture quality: In bright light/sun light it was actually pretty good. Anything less regarding light, resolution got worse exponentially. (LUX rating is 2.0, most CCD's are .5 - 1.0 LUX) At night with your reverse lights it would work, yet you most likely would be squinting at your navi to make out many objects etc.

- Size: Same as all other key hole styles - basically 1 inch dia and 2 inch long, flush mount type with different angled bezels provided.

- Angle of view: This is where I couldn't find any specs prior to ordering.. Using my work bench as an object at about 5 ft away, it was very evident that the angle of view on this camera is only about 90 degrees. So if mounted on the license plate angled down to see the bumper area and beyond, you would be lucky to see about a 3 foot section of the center bumper and then wider as you get further away. Bottom line, you would never see something approaching the sides of the bumper, only the center area....


Not much more to say than that...

Given the cost, I would have made this camera work despite its low light performance. The "small" angle of view was the deal stopper for me. If I had known prior to ordering that it was only 90 degrees, I wouldn't have considered it.

My next purchase will be either a 1/4 or 1/3 CCD color camera with at least 130 degrees of view (150 would be optimum).

I'm still anxious to hear what camera "Dom" recommends.

Cheers

kennyc

Just found the picture of the camera that was mounted in the license plate.

xkactetx

Very bad idea once you remove the camera you have a hole in the trunk. Plus the camera just looks out you have no way of knowing har far away you really are as opposed to a camera that has your bumper on the bottom of the screen

kennyc

I agree. I'm just throwing it out there...

KJSmitty

A hole in the trunk behind the plate would be easily filled with a professional looking plug.. That's really not even a concern. Besides, its behind the plate...

As for the camera placement, all of the $200+ and a few cheaper ones have over 110 degree horizontal and vertical angles of view. They also come with angled/bevels that slip on the bullet/keyhole cameras to achieve the proper angle/aim.

Bottom line, the bullet style/keyhole camera mounted through the plate is the best option and least intrusive of the "flush mounted" applications. Just need to purchase the right hardware etc.

Cheers

gt1

I don't know how many of you are going to drill holes in your cars, but I don't think I'll be able to make myself do it So these "keyhole" style cameras are out of question. Too bad, beacuse it looks like I will have to spend $200-250, which is more than I hoped for.

KJSmitty

I spoke to the folks at Dom's the other day and all of their backup cameras are in the $225 range. "Vinnie" however read me off the specs for a few and they were low LUX (low light capable) 1/3 CCD mirror image color cameras. He didn't have all of the "angle of view" numbers but swore they exceeded what sounded like 130 degrees given his applications. He claimed all of their cameras were hand picked for being rugged and waterproof. I will really need to see some hard facts on "all" specs before I blindly order a $225 camera.

My next try will be:

1/4 - 1/3 CCD mirror image collar camera
.5 - 1.0 LUX
110 - 130 degrees of horizontal view

kennyc

I got my camera today. I will post some pics later. It's not as small as the bumble bee but it's a 1-piece, mirror image, 1/4"ccd, .5lux, and 150 degrees view angle.

Dom's box should be here today as well.

audi_to_TL

iTrader: (2)

Which camera did you order?? Was it the one from discount??

kennyc

nope! I got it from ebay.

this one from ebay