TLTrance

I've been thinking about this for a bit and I wanted to share this not-so-novel idea concerning navigation units based on DVDs.. (I apologize if this idea has been written about already in the forum)

I know supplying a DVD drive and the DVD disc itself can't be too expensive, but how much more expensive could be to supply a hard drive based navigation unit that can not only contain more information (additional points of interest, large address book, etc - a 40gb drive costs $45-50 today.. much better than 9GB or so max on the dual-disc DVD), but also have the ability to update without buying expensive update discs?

Obviously this blurs the line with carputers, but I'm not necessarily looking for full-fledged PC-like computing functionality with this. All I'm suggesting/wondering is that wouldn't it be more feasible to supply a hard drive based nav unit that can be updated with, say, through a visit to any dealership, or even through the GPS signal that writes the info to the hard drive.

Storing data like this will also preserve it, even with a battery disconnect. Of course, someone in the future may be able to load a program that can play audio files from this hard drive. Video is also a possibility, but I don't really think I want to be distracted with watching vids.. The goal is to not provide full PC-like computing, but rather just a more flexible and expandable means of storing nav info, including personalizations.

crazymjb

They have aftermarket equipment that use 20gb drives, 10 are data, 10 are audio. I thought ours had a HD and the DVDs werent teh OS, just updates on points of interest and mapping.

TLTrance

I believe ours has a memory storage unit, but obviously the memory is volatile because id you disconnect the battery for more than 30 seconds, all the addresses/numbers are gone.

TLTrance

I meant "based on hard drives"..

crazymjb

Well it is possible that is held in solid state memory. I was thinking that there must be the major software permenently installed in the unit, and the discs are updates to that. If anyone wants to take apart the navi to take pics feel free? Is there a cover that lifts off, or is there a warrenty void bla bla bla sticker on it?

vp911

As far as your thoughts on saving money from the updates - they charge the $200 for a new DVD because of all the time and effor it goes into updating the maps. It is a profit center for them.

I think a hard drive system would be a good idea - especially if it allowed for mp3 storage.

caball88

if you guys read through the hack your navi thread the actual software is in the dvd and it loads it into memory when booted up initially. the dvd also contains the map and points of interest. hard drive based navigation is an alternative and has it's pros and cons. first off hard drives offer alot of storage which is good. hard drives can be much faster in terms of throughput and data can be upgraded fairly easily. but here are some cons: reliablity since hard drives are magnetic disks they can become corrupt over time (especially with rough roads). again since they are mechanical more in nature than a dvd based systems there can be more points of failure. also in order to take advantage of the full performance of the hard drive the acutal system itself will have to offer some pretty decent processing power. if you have not noticed the current navigation operates off a pretty simple low power processor. adding in a more power system would raise prices for the TL above what most people are willing to pay. i don't doubt the fact that more advanced hard drive based navi's will make its way into automotive lineups but the upgrade is will be more gradual.

as a side note from what i recollect the early 2nd gen TL's used hard drive based navi but its a pretty slow drive.

Zeuser

You are correct. The previous gen used hard drives.

I prefer the DVD method, it's easier to hack the software because it's easily accessible; put DVD in computer, copy files and voila. All you need to do from there is decmpile files, disassemble executeables etc.

With a hard drive solution, you can bet getting to the programs isn't going to be easy!

jobes

I hope you are joking

TLTrance

I guess I'm being lead to believe that its 30 seconds or more.. I guess my question then is does it get stored in a flash based non volatile memory. By "it," I mean stuff like addresses, phone numbers, etc.

caball88

if its stored in flash memory then it is not volatile and will stay there even if there is no juice in the car. disconnecting the battery for extended periods of time will not effect flash memory. however if it is flash memory then there is an issue of how long it is good for as constant flashing(adding/deleting) of the memory will wear away at it.

georgeny

Interesting comments on hard drive systems. I have 04 TL wo/nav, few were available when I purchased. Later regretting not having nav I purchased Garmin 2620 Nav which has a 20 gig hard drive. Since this simply plugs into the dc socket I have to presume that having a hard drive unit doesn't, contrary to your thoughts on it, require any special power system.

I find the hard Drive to be very fast on calculation and recalulation, point of interest loading and so forth. I would presume that a DVD system would have to be somewhat slower. This unit provides easy upgrade of firmware and eventaully maps via a simplt usb plug in and connect to Garmin online. It contains the entire US and Canada complete with City maps, has voice prompts, touch screen all very fast and extrememly accurate. I am almost happy that I wnet this way versus built in system with the exception of the KEWL factor of having built in.

Come time for my 2 year trade it is going to be a hard decision whether or not to get factory installed nav or just stay with my Garmin Unit. The DVD versus Hard drive question is now only going to make it harder to decide I guess. Besides the KEWL factor I can't really see any pluses to factory unit based on DVD. Price ( I got real deal $800 ) generally $1000 currently for the Garmin and since can go car to car resale factor ( hear $500 on resale for nav versus non nav ) also applies. Another plus, just cruised San Juan to Norfolk Va and rented a car to drive home. Simply put my Garmin in travel bag and plugged it into rental to take me home.

No internal battery needed with hard drive, all information stays written to disk.

caball88

aftermarket vs factory is another topic of its own. besides the navigation the factory navigation includes other features not found in the non-navi version. also the integration of the system into the car is important for some people. an external system can perform navigation just as well if not better than the factory but for the person purchasing the car it might be important to get the package as a whole out of the box than to go out and buy an additional unit. the hard drive in your garmin is probably not the same as the one in your pc or laptop but similar to the one found in an ipod. those drives are pretty slow in perfomance when compared to regular hard drives. the data transfer rate will be similar to that of the dvd drive. the advantage of using a hard drive based system for more throughput would be if the software took advantage of it. the acura system and others alike are still relatively simple in terms of functionality do not require the throughput of a hard drive. as we see future systems come out i am sure there will be much more features and the need to increase performance will likely drive navigation technologies to different solutions. who knows hard drives may never make it to automotive navi's maybe they will stick to disk based systems using new blu-ray or hd-dvd which can hold lots more data.

crazymjb

Instead of hard disks why not 10 gigs of flash. If you arent trying to compress it into an SD card its not too expensive to produce.

tommyz

I bought my dad the Magellan roadmate 700, got it at costco for 850 list 1099., they use it at AVIS and its plug and play. Thats all my dad can do. What sets it apart is that it doesnt use flash ram solely it has a 10gb internal HD. Thats pretty quick. Its not as extensive as our navi but its close ( no voice command) but it has alot of points of interest. Its good that it can be easily shared between several cars. But our navi is way apart. It has a big screen and alot of esthetic appeal that is definetly apparent at trade in. Im happy I got it.

If our database is just over 6gb, compressed. I think in the future they may go to a rom carousel or dual rom reader. Rom readers are even cheaper than a HD

It may be an advantage to have a HD. But i think with Car navigation is that it only uses a small amount of the database at any one time, because you can only drive so fast. A HD can fail, just like in your computer.

A rom is easier to replace if defective.
The dataport still allows a upgrade to a different media type since the system uses CE.

georgeny

Not having the factory nav or having used one I am not in a position to make a real comparison but it is obvious that there are pluses and minuses on both sides. The integration of the system can also be a weighed in on both sides. I presume that commands given by unit interupt radio and uses same speakers system as does the HF system? I would think that would be annoying in comparison to the portable unit which uses it own speaker which does not interupt whatever I have on radio system. I find it quite nice to get instruction of impending route turn while still having radio operating. Again a personal preference I would guess.

The TWO major factors that weigh heavily in favor of the factory unit are more the screen size and the no external connection wire to power. Thinking about it there is also a safety factor in favor or the installed version. The garmin is heavy and stable even without a permanent mount being affixed, however, in a collision it could do some damage being a flying object.

Whichever way I go in the future ( and will probably be factory unit for sheer convenience ) one thing I do know that navigation to me is like air conditioning was in cars before it was virtually standard. Didn't need it so much before I had it but could never have a car without after I did! Even if don't need it for a lot actual navigation point to point it is something that you get very comfortable having onboard simply because you are never concerned about being lost. especially if you have to detour from a planned route unexpectedly due to traffic or construction situation. I love nav systems, no matter which one it is

sparky57

The medium itself costs less than a dollar and you will not find a more inexpensive way to deliver a 9 GB update. The cost of the update disc is entirely based upon the effort required to deliver the "intellectual property".

rw

acuraTL44

Actually the TL navigation system does keep the music playing in the back speakers so that the passengers in the rear seats can still listen to the music when the navi is giving directions. The directions are never more then 10 seconds at a time. They are brief and simple, but still give you the info you need to get to where you are going. Another thing about the TL navi is that it doesn't just use GPS, it also uses car information, such as speed and turns to keep the navi pointing in the right direction and to calculate an estimated time to your destination. The voice recognition is the best. "How long to the destination?", How far to the destination?", "Find the nearest gas station", "Find the nearest ATM", and "What time is it?" are my favorite navigation commands. The recalculate feature is a favorite of mine too.

The only upside I can think of to the portable GPS is that it can be taken from car to car.

caball88

the "what time is it" command is virtually useless unless you are blind in which cause you should not be driving. the dash has the time right smack in the middle in the line of sight of the windshield, its impossible to miss. i used the command once or twice just to showoff to some friends but its probably one of the most useless commands.

crazymjb

It runs off windows? Wonderful. That will explain any problems I may encounter with it. Though none yet , but that may be cause I don't yet have the car