My opinions/comments in Red below!

With a nice processor, you can definitely make it sound better in several ways....dial in tonality, imaging, depth, etc. However, you can also screw it up and I have a problem paying someone unless you can be in the car when they do it. Tuning flat sounds okay (more for competition use and music), but other than that, it is a very personalized thing. The guy will tune it how he likes it or how he thinks you will like it and then you are on the hook to pay him every time you want something changed. If you add a processor, I would do so with the thought of learning how to tune yourself. You may want to consider an MS8 that will auto-tune. They are good for this type of system and would improve the sound greatly (and I don't sell them....I can't get them....but not a dealer, so my opinion is unbiased)!

 

^ Thanks for the comments Jerry! Now for a little update! One of the things that I mentioned to this guy while we were initially discussing things was that although I couldn't put my finger on it often times the sound just sounded a bit muffled. I told him I was concerned that the door card/grille assembly could be pressing on the speaker and I was not convinced I have clearance. When I said this his immediate reaction was to point to the HU and say that is the OEM processing. And I was thinking to myself........... my research tells me that the OEM headunit is putting out a damn flat full signal, but I let him keep on going.

Fast forward to today when I was to complete the upgrade by deadening the passenger door assembly. I looked a little closer at the way the OEM door panel seals off the speaker area and decided I should try it out without installing the door panel just to see what it sounds like. OMG its night and day without the door panel installed. So I will be trimming off the plastic "seal" and see if the wonderful non muffled sound remains. I sure hope that the speaker grille itself is not attenuating the sound this much. So I think that I should have trimmed this plastic off from the beginning.

Has everyone else trimmed off this plastic when they have installed speakers on top of 3/4" MDF rings?

So if my suspicions are correct trimming off this plastic will really improve the overall sound. if not I will be cutting out the plastic grille and installing speaker fabric for grille covers.

Long story short.......this critical listening session and any suggestions was prolly based upon completely screwed up sound due to the interference by the door panel! HA

 

If we are not tuning our TL sound systems for music then what? Is all this for watching movies? I know I don't have navi so i won't be watching any movies in my car. For my home theatre systems yes, big bass, time alignment, audessey multi-eq, etc. When an explosion happens I can definitely feel it and when I watch the space shuttle taking off it's like it's taking off in my room.. well almost. Just a question about what you were referring to by pointing out that tuning flat sounds good for music.

I know I am no expert when it comes to car audio but if you still hear some muffle, try turning the bass down and the sub up to compensate.

 

Before hacking the door panel, which most people do not need to do, try putting foam around the speaker ring so it seals to the door panel. You may be having a lot of information getting stuck behind the door panel. The speaker will radiate in all directions, so you need to direct it to go through the speaker grill. Just get some thick weatherstripping to do the trick!

Sorry for the mistype, meant tuning flat sounds good for "competition music", but not always the best on most music people listen to. Time Alignment is vital to get a proper Stereo image in a car, if you want to go that far.

 

Here is the dilemma. In this picture you can see the vertical fin with black residue that I am contemplating trimming off. The residue is from a foam gasket material that I pulled off. This was OEM to seal the speaker to the door panel.


The next picture shows the ID's on rings sealed in with cascade. My primitive measurements indicate that the fin piece really has not enough room anymore.


Currently I have one door "completed" with the door panel in place with the fin and gasketing material intact and my other door sealed and deadened but no door panel in place. It is night and day difference in the sound. If its just the plastic speaker grille causing the attenuation I would be surprised. If thats the case I would rather cut that plastic grill out and use some speaker cloth in its place. It looks like the aluminum trim ring around the speaker hole could hold some fabric in place?

But if there is clearance inside then that fin is actually helping to focus the sound out of the speaker opening and cutting it would be counter productive. Arghh I just cannot see in there to tell. Only hear the difference.

 

Ok, so I just popped the corner up on the one installed door panel and there was no change in sound quality. Clearly the fin structure is not interfering. I believe the difference I was experiencing is that you naturally think the louder speaker sounds better and the one not playing thru the door panel was not being attenuated by the plastic grill cover. Everything is back buttoned up and sealed and sounds good.

I just wonder how much better it would sound with the plastic grille replaced with audio transparent cloth? I cannot figure out how to remove the fasteners holding the metal trim ring or I would try it.

 

I'm sure it would help. Would it be audible or worth the time? I don't know. For us running 2-ways, the more helpful thing would be to find a way to make them more on-axis, especially the drivers side that's damn near 70deg. off-axis.

 

well it is a significant difference between the door panels on and off. If I could figure out how to remove those fasteners it would be super simple to dremel that plastic out and skin it with some cloth. Who knows how to remove those friggen fasteners. Split washer type compression fit.

You can see them in the top picture of post #165

 

Ah I see what you're saying. Yeah I have no clue about those fastners. They almost look like some sort of rivet. Maybe I'll go take my door panel off and join you lol. I took a dremel to the fin and made it almost flush with the speaker grill for a little extra room for excursion. I've always wondered how much room there is between the two and if sound is getting trapped between the door card and making rattles worse.

 

Mine sounds a lot better with the panel off as well and I've sealed my speakers to the panel with foam. I'll be watching this thread. Since mine are black, I might be able to remove the stock grills and cover it with black cloth and have it still look pretty factory. Those rivet things will come off with a small screwdriver bending each little tab back. It takes a while but it's doable. When reinstalling them, you just flatten the whole "washer" and push it back on.

 

Matt, I thought you had custom pods in the kicks? Yeah if I could figure a way to get those little buggers off some grill cloth would be the next step.

 

He's got mids in the kicks. Still has the midbass in the door

It'll be interesting to see what you come up with for the panels. Keep us posted.

 

Unfortunately I have encountered this type of fastener on a couple of occasions on other projects and it so far has required that I destroy the attachments. I have never been able to release this type of fastener previously.

I wonder if this trim ring is available separately and if it comes with the attachment washers.

 

I'm going to pull the cover off right now. I'll post back in a few of the covering looks ok.

 

Actually, I'll probably post in the morning, getting tired.

 

I look forward to your findings.

I do not think that part is available as a separate piece. At least its not shown on the door panel parts diagram. I do not even know what the proper term is for that type of fastener? tension bolt? tension washer? split washer nut? Hell I have searched google images to try and find them with no luck. There must be a simple removal tool that bends the washer to relieve the tension to allow removal. Or perhaps its considered to be permanant?

 

Sub'd. This could get interesting. Someone needs to experiment with getting the door speaker more on axis. Probably just have to custom make a ring that was thicker (1"+) towards the front of the panel. If I had a garage....this would already be done lol

It's so damn hot here lol

 

So I mocked it up. No cutting yet, I wanted to get your guys' opinions before I cut on a $1,000 door panel. Here it is, I stuck the material under the trim ring so just use your imagination. It will be riveted and glued on when I'm done. It actually looks pretty factory in the lower lighting when in the car. I just don't want this car to look all modded like some 16yr old kid would do. It has to look factory.







To clarify, the factory grill has to be cut out so this will be permanent. I forgot to take pictures with it in the car but unless you own a TL, I don't think anyone would realized it was not factory. This is high quality acoustic cloth, it looks black in direct sunlight unlike some of the cheaper stuff I've used that looks purple and fades out quickly.

I might install them as is for a week and see if I can live with them.

 

Some more/better pictures:

Stock:





Modded. I forgot to push the trim ring all the way so use your imagination:





I can flip the material around for a more textured look.

 

Matt! That is exactly what I am talkin about! The sound quality difference is going to be worth the non factory look and little less protection by far!

But I am more interested in exactly how you removed those pesky washers holding the trim ring on. If I could figure that out I would have cut that ish out already!

I had an issue with the armrest wanting to rotate to far back so I decided I needed some protection! Stainless steel grille in place. Door panel grill cloth next!

 

Finished grille in place! Hope I have not created a source of rattles!

 

Very interesting Matt. You going to drive around with them for a few days and see if you can hear an audible difference?...or enough difference to justify the mod.

 

Nope he is double muffled at moment. No plastic has been removed. He just wants to see if he can accept the fabric finish. Its a very audible difference. If he would tell me how to remove them pasky washers i would be done! Ha

 

Oh, sorry lol. I used needle nose. Just patiently twisted while pulling up and they eventually come off. I broke a few but there's a clip on the bottom that holds the ring on and honestly, even with no retaining washers, it stays on just fine. Worst case scenario, you break every washer/stud and have to use a couple drops of glue when you put it back together.

 

Is it bad I'm getting excited about this lol. If we can have a simple, easy DIY for this that'd be amazing! If the difference really is what you say it is, then this will be done in my car soon. I really want to tackle some baffles that put our speakers more on-axis soon also. I've got an MS-8 on the way too. Hopefully things are looking up!

 

I would like to maintain those washers to avoid a rattling trim ring! Any idea what this type of fastener is called?

 

I'm also not completely sure which route I'm going. I'm 90% sure I can fit the Dyn MW182 10" midbass behind the stock door panels without modification so that's a possible route as well. This mod will be even more important if I do this. I'm fixing a problem I don't have but the midbasses are the most worked speaker of my system. They do amazingly well for a 6.5", the best I've ever run or listened to but it would be nice to double the cone area and lower excursion. It will be exremely hard to get rid of the Esotar 650. In fact, I'll probably not sell them, just hang on to them for a future project.

I might be temporarily installing the 650s under the dash to see how everything sounds and see if they will reproduce accurately at least up to 300hz firing down at the floor. If they do and the stage does not suffer I might put the 10s under the dash IB.

 

I thought about rattling but mine is installed with no washers and my midbasses have a ton of output and no rattling. The cloth itself I'm sure helps a lot. A drop here and there of glue will hold it much better than those rivet things ever could.

Over on DIYMA, they know more about door panels than I ever imagined. They described those plastic "rivets" that look like they've been melted and how to get them off like it was nothing. If you post a picture, they can probably help.

That square section looks to be removable and form my post over on DIYMA it looks like you can get used door panels for $150 on ebay.

Feel free to jump in on that thread over there, the more information, the better.

 

I've always said we could fit a true 8" back there easily. Plenty of room if you move the speaker down and forward and cut the speaker opening. Matt, have you put a 10" or true 8" trim ring up to the door and tried to put the door panel back on?

650 + 102 would make a nice little center wouldn't ya say! Do I get the other one for the great idea? lol

 

Very true! I'll give you half of the other one....

Over on DIYMA, there was a 9" put into a TL door without modding the panel. What it looks like it takes to make that work is mounting the speaker straight to the door without a baffle and it sits behind the door card. The Dyn 10" is only 3" deep so it will fit depth wise without a baffle.

This is the thread I'm talking about. The 9" in question looks MUCH deeper than the Dyn 10". http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...-part-2-a.html

Here's the Dyn I'm thinking about sticking in there. http://www.woofersetc.com/p-5555-eso...subwoofer.aspx

 

Monkey - any reason you want a MS8 rather than trying the ID crossovers first? Active isn't all that it is cracked up to be for most people. I would see if you can live with the crossovers for a few months before you bite off a MS8. Also, you can get door panels at junkyards now... not cheap, but not $1000 either.

IHC - you can easily get a second 6.5 in the door. I have 2 in mine. I have a KBE set in the end by the seats. Everybody said that it would sound terrible, but it plays from 40-100 hertz, so you cannot even locate them, kinda like the sub, but I would not let them play much higher than that. They take 200 watts and sound great. No mods were required of the door - I removed the foam thingy from the panel, mounted the grills to the plastic and secured a square 3/4" piece of MDF to the metal with a hole in it. Easy and effective. I thought it would be easier to bring a second 6.5 into the 3-way that jack up what I already had... I run the KBE from 40-120 hertz and the regular midbass from 100-250, then 250-3200 and then up. It is kind of like a 4 way, but the two 6.5s overlap some. ...anyway, just an idea...

 

That AT 9" is 4 deep too. You might be able to use a small spacer (1/4" or 1/2") just to decouple since the Dyn is only 3" deep.

JDA- I've got my 360 with no TA, no EQ, etc & just x-overs right now to set it up like it would be on the passives and it's a decent difference to me. The stage is smeared across te dash. Rainbows really bad (mid phase most likely). I'll try it again when the MS-8 comes to see back to back. It's got a 30-day worry free return and 1yr warranty so not too worried if I don't love it.

 

It looks like he deadened the entire panel too for that flush mount. I'm not sure how much the baffle really helps to decouple (probably different based on material too)...anyone ever try it both ways to see how bad it could be when flush?

If we can fit a shallow 9 or 10.....wow. Not many cars can do that

 

There is more in those crossover than just xover points. They also tone down some bad spots and stuff. Try them, they will sound different than just the points on the amp. I am not saying that you will love them, they just might be plenty good enough.

 

Let's see if we can get a quantity discount form Jerry, 4 Dyn 10" midbasses. Then I'll sell you my 650 really cheap.

We are pretty lucky depth wise and on top of that, I haven't seen too many 10s that are only 3" deep. I would have looked into it sooner if I had realized. The only problem is the 650s already destroy the doors with 10.5mm of excursion. I can only imagine twice the cone area with 14.5mm of excursion. But yeah, nearly 3x the displacement. Those things should operate effortlessly.

The worst thing is, the 650s haven't let me down, I'm making changes to make changes. I lowered the highpass to 70hz/24db and took the door panel off to get some loud listening so I can watch excursion. These things really move and it's still extremely impressive that such a small speaker can sound so good at 70hz loudly.

In my thread over on DIYMA they mentioned that Jon W wants to change over to dual 10" midbasses from his single MW180 10" midbass saying those are the hardest working speakers in his system. I'm really rearranging my whole belief system when it comes to required displacement and midbass. To be honest, I would go with the Dyn MW172 8" speaker except it has the same overall displacement as the Esotar 650 so I would be losing midrange ability and gaining nothing.

I think it's time to start my own thread lol.

 

Nah! Keep it here! Its easier for me to find!

 

Hey Pohljm, did you ever cut the factory grills out and replace them with cloth? I decided to cut mine out today while trying to fit these monsters in my doors:

(Exodus Anarchy next to X-65)


I pulled all the rivets off and cut out the stock grill with my Dremel.



Test fit:



I picked up some speaker cloth from the local fabric store and hot glued it to the trim ring and hot glued the trim ring back onto the door panel. It was hard to get the trim ring to fit back in the panel with the extra fabric around it so it doesn't sit completely flush, but it's not too noticeable.

 

I was waiting for someone to do that! After you get some listening time in, let us know your opinions on the change in sound, if any.

 

I did not! with the smaller 6.5 ID's I am running I loved the clarity with the panels off, but enjoyed the additional mid bass that came with the speakers blocked a bit and loading up on the door card. I think its a must almost for those that are running 8's and 9's in the doors. way to test it out though. Have you tried having the trim ring exposed and not wrapping the fabric? that may allow a better fit.

 

I'm starting to wonder if the difference we've heard with the panel on vs off is because of the fact that the panel seals up the door to window area and pretty much any small leak in the door panel. Maybe it's not loading against the grill and removing the grill won't make a difference in bass. I'm definitely considering removing the grill now. I'm glad someone did this finally. When I have mine playing hard you can feel it moving air through the grill. I only play them up to 500hz but sometimes with a 6 or 12db filter on the low end so they move some air.

Looking forward to any before/after remarks on bass lost or not lost.