I hate cars

I've seen several people running those IB and all of them had good things to say.

Opel

I got my IDQ12 on amazon for about 250.

And as you were told "HELL NO" on those lol

I just finished installing one of the subs (only have one for now) ....I think you would like the IDQ12!!! ....I might pick up one more, and redo the baffle one more time.

The pyle, if they stand to what people are saying...that is one sweet f***ing deal.

Have you picked your components yet... what are you looking to spend?

pohljm

For 58$ that would be great!

I am planning on ID CXSv2 components.

Still wondering about the lack of a processor.

pohljm

Update JL 700/5 was just delivered! Woohoo Need to order some speakers now. I am still a little confused on the sub that I should order, Amp will provide 180W at 4 Ohm, or 300W at 2 Ohm. I am figuring that a sub with a dual 4 Ohm voice coil would be the best and most flexible. Is that correct?

niebur3

Yep, a dual 4 is what you would want (or single 2ohm) for the amp to see 2ohm and deliver the 300 watts. Let me know if you need to order anything!

Opel

POHLJM,

Are you only going to run 1 sub?

Reason I ask is because I thought I would only run one and be done with it, but the fact that I liked it made me add another one (in the process) .

My point is, if you end up deciding to add another one, you might wanna consider dual 2ohm, run it at 4ohm as a single sub....180w would be sufficient since IB doesn't take as much power as other methods. This way, you can always add another dual 2 ohm, and be able to run the whole configuration at 2 ohm, since you would have 2 subs.

Neibur3 can add to this.... I'm just throwing a suggestion

BTW. Neibur3..... What is your take on CDT components? Specifically some of the HD series, w/ upstage xovers (or without). Im considering a set, but damn they're expensive lol ...looking at something around 200wrms

niebur3

Your sub suggestion is pretty solid. You do always have to remember that there will be a little bit of cancellation when 2 subs are involved, but as long as you mount them really close together, you should be good to go!

As far as CDT....ummmmm.....my mom always told me if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all...lol! Actually my experience with listening to them is limited, however not very positive. There are MUCH better speakers for the money. I became a dealer about 1 1/2 yrs ago and selected who I signed up with based on my past competition/consumer experience(s). Call me sometime (402-598-1725) and I'll drop some knowledge on your....ok, I will ask lots of questions and give you my truthful educated opinion !

Opel

Im blunt by nature, so if something's is bad, its just bad! lol no reason to butter it up. Thanks for the offer and willing to share your experience. Im going to finish what I've started the way it is, and when I decide, if I decide to just run front 2 channels, plus subs off the AM amp, instead of rears as well, then I will need a set of 200wrms components.

You may still throw suggestions.

niebur3

I (as well as many others on here) will tell you to buy the best front components you can afford. Don't worry about the rears. For a proper stage in a car, you want everything sounding like it is in front of you (imagine a concert). Tell me your budget for front components and I'll throw out some ideas. If the budget is completely open, I'd say Dynaudio. But I hate to throw brands out without knowing what someones means are. Otherwise, I'm just being mean....lol

Opel

Im aware of dynaudio lol...a little over the board however...

around the $400 area ....i know its probably not a lot, but im staying a few notches shy of competition with this one lol

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Don't forget to deaden (and seal if you can)!!

...Jerry can get you hooked up with that too. Makes a world of difference


Oh yeah....GO THUNDER! Up 2-0 baby!!

niebur3

PM Sent!

I hate cars

Is there any other brand?

If the GF knew what my "$150" Dyns really cost I would be single. She wasn't even happy about $150.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Hahaha Matt...I'm putting that in my sig

pohljm

I am planning on being set for life running the single 15"!

My commute is less than 25 minutes per day. I have no need to rattle anything. I do not listen at high volume. My musical tastes do not run bass excessive, I really am just trying to get a system that is accurate and will allow me to listen with the windows down or sunroof open while driving.

That being said, I reserve the right to cut some wood and spend another $60 on a driver some afternoon to have a dual 15! Would the dual 4 Ohm handcuff me?

niebur3

Kind of. The only way you can wire (2) dual 4ohm subs is 4ohm or 1ohm and since your amp isn't 1ohm stable, 4ohm is the only option. Which means your amp will be providing 2 subs a total of 180 watts (90 each) instead of 1 at 300 watts. The 1 at 300 watts would be louder. So, if you go that route, you would probably want to upgrade your amp if you ever decided to add a 2nd sub. As of now, that is what I would do. I have 1 12" IB and it is plenty loud for me!

Opel

this now, threw me off....
I already have 1 idq12 , running off of pdx-v9 (500rms) ....I already prepared another baffle to mount 2. I don't know what to expect sharing the 500rms between the 2. haven't mounted it yet, so I can always return it.

Btw, got your pm... Thanks for that...ill consider the options and see. If I decide to ditch the rears, ill bridge the amp for the front channels only, but that will give me 200rms each side.... The ones you mentioned were rated at 125.


Pohljm....
from what you said, seems like a single 15 at 2ohm would be sufficient enough

I hate cars

Can you put the full 500w to the single 12? If you're already putting 500w to the single and all you do is add another 12 with 250w each, I *think* you get a 3db gain at the same power. I highly doubt a single IDQ12 would take 500w in the lower frequencies though. I know my 12W6 would bottom at just a little over 200w. So you should be able to run more power in the lower frequencies I guess. What you will be rewarded with is less distortion since each sub's excursion will be cut in half.

Jerry's Dyn sub has nearly 30mm of one way excursion so output even with a single 12 should be good.

I've got 4 more SBP15s on order as well. They have a lot of cone area for a 15" sub, 19mm xmax and 25mm xmech so they move a decent amount of air. If they ever arrive I'll probably sell a pair of them.

niebur3

Most component sets, especially the ones I mentioned to you, can handle well more power than what they are rated for. The manufacturer has to assume you will not be crossing them over on the low end, so they give a conservative full range rating to cover their butts. So, with even a HP Filter at 63hz, power handling goes WAY up! I usually set somewhere between 63hz-80hz and would recommend a 24dB slope. If you did 80hz with 24db slope, they could probably handle 400 watts.

I think most people understand that a filter makes for less distortion and higher power handling. But the other factor I would like to point out is just because your amp has 200 watts available to the speaker, doesn't mean your speaker will EVER see 200 watts, especially with a filter.

The amount of power your speaker actually sees is dependent on frequency, impedance, voltage (and several other factors). But lets talk about just these 3 things for now. Music is very dynamic (unlike the test tones used to rate an amps power), so when you are playing music, you have frequencies being played for bits of time all throughout the frequency range you have specified by your filters. The power it takes to produce 10khz is far less than the power it takes to produce 100hz. The amp will push only the number of watts necessary (up to the total available, in this case 200 watts) to produce the desired frequency at the desired decibel level. So, the amplifier may only need to push 10 watts for that 10khz "note", whereas, it may need 100 watts for that 100hz "note" for them to be at the same volume. The extra power available, not being used, is called head room. It is there for those millisecond bursts of a crescendo in the music and will make a system sound more dynamic. Even if these short millisecond bursts exceed the speakers rating, because of their extremely short duration, the speaker can handle it just fine as long as you are being competent and properly using filters (exact reason why you use a subsonic filter - HP Filter - on subs in Infinite Baffle setups). As the frequency spectrum changes, so does the impedance for the speaker, therefore causing the amplifier to never be able to even make the 200 watts at certain frequencies.

Think of your amp like a bank account. It's good to have money in the bank. Lets say you have $200 in the bank. If you want to buy lunch, well, that is only $10. Think of lunch like a 10khz note and think of a pair of $100 shoes as a 100hz note. At the same time, think of a $300 PS3 at a 50hz note and now you just busted your bank. It's good to have some money in savings...lol!

Now to go on a little further, even if the amp is rated at 200 watts RMS, it will still need enough input voltage to ever reach that number (ohms law). So, in most cases, none of us listen to our Radios at full volume....correct? Maybe 1/2 or 3/4 volume most of the time. Unless you are using a line driver and have it set to max out voltage when your radio knob is at 20 or 30, then your amp doesn't have the 200 watts available for the speakers anyway. And even with a line driver, most will not be listening to their systems at full tilt all the time or loss of hearing would occur.

So, it is good to look at RMS Power on both sides (speaker and amplifier), but keep in mind, you have some control over it based on the filters you set!

jda123

I might suggest that you look at efficiency of the components more than the power that they will take. In the $150 range, I would be looking at Image Dynamics CTX, Morel Maximo or some Rainbow SLCs - I have heard each of these and they are OK for the money. There are many, many others that would be fine too.

If you ever decide on a second sub, you will likely have to sell this one and get a pair that will wire to 2 ohms (a pair of single 4s, or a pair of dual 2s). ...or you can keep the sub and get a new amp to drive them. 500W amps at 4 ohms are cheap and available. Worry about that later - you might never want it.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Good write up Jerry

Agree with JDA. No sense in worrying about options now. You're going to have to change and it'll be very simple to find an amp to run at 4ohms with whatever power you need.

Opel

I'm going to deaden some...definitely the baffle, trunk from cabin.

The amp I have is a 5 ch (alpine pdx-v9). Sub channel is rated at 500wrms @ 4ohm (same for 2ohm).
So the single 12 is already getting all of it. IDQ12 is rated up to 750wrms, from what I have gathered anyway.

Jerry,
Thank you for the awesome write up! You definitely cleared up a lot of things for me (and others hopefully).
Just a quick answer to one of your points...I am using a line driver (AC Matrix plus), and have it set at about 4v output, at about 3/4 of HU volume. Most of the time, the amp never sees the full 4v anyway.
Amp gains are at the bottom, and no remote bass gain either.

I do look at efficiency as well. My only concern was that, If I did decide to run front components with bridged channels, I wanted to avoid blowing anything up.
Jerry cleared this.

I already got a 2nd sub, just not yet installed. The one on the car at this time is a 2ohm DVC, wired at 4 (amp puts out 500wrms @4 and @2 ohm).
The 2nd sub is the same, so when combined I'll get a final impedance of 2ohm (still 500wrms "566 from birth cert.")..So I don't think I'll need to get an amp for the sub/s.

I wanna run everything off of the v9. There's plenty of power from it.


In addition....Regardless of the fact that the OP might find these discussions educational, I'd like to apologize for hijacking his thread. I feel as if more of my questions were answered than his.
I never really start threads.

pohljm

Opel! no apologies necessary! we are all after the same thing here and all conversations are educational to me.

Update! Pyle blue wave 15" dual 4 Ohm voice coil sub ordered! Cant go wrong for $48

I hate cars

The amp might be rated at 500w but I see no way you can push the whole 500w at 20 or 30hz without bottoming the sub. That's where the second sub should really help. For example, at 20hz I can only push roughly 200w to mine but by 35hz they can take the whole 500w each (if I had it available) without bottoming.

Opel

Thanks
Let this be a join-thread....we kinda started at the same time lol.... But we had different triggers .... mine was a blown driver side door speaker....before you know it, I'm putting my trunk back....UNREAL! lol

That is a sweet freaking deal! ... I spend more on coffee weekly lol.
Idk how, but maybe lack of sufficient research...i went with IDQ12s


Oh no, I agree....I don't think i'm getting anything below 30hz, have to check the settings. I believe the FS for this sub is 26hz.... i'm still in the process, so I have things set down to minimal and safe untill I put everything together. That includes chopping wood lol.

I can see how the second sub would help and makes sense. Thanks for the suggestion. I already have the baffle...its just a matter of fitting it and mounting the subs, so It wouldn't hurt to try. And from your experience, if each sees 250w, it would be loud enough, distortion free?

pohljm

OK! new topic....wires/cables

Should I get them online and bring them to the installer, or just go with what they will have at the shop? If I buy em online, any suggestions? How many of you have run all new speaker wires and who is using the OEM wires in their builds?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I ran all new wires. I can't remember exactly, but our stock wire gauge is pretty small. I ran all new 14 & 16 gauge wire from Monoprice.com. Also running their premium RCA's bc they're cheap and nice looking. Well built too.

Jerry sells all that stuff also...might want to hit him up

pohljm

Damn search function on this site is so poor! Does anyone have a good link or links for removal of trunk carpet/covers,etc and rear seat removal? I need to get going on this Infinite baffle

pohljm

Ok, Sub is here! rear seat and back are out! starting to scope out the baffle fitment. Couple questions? What tool or improvised tool have you found that best removes the plastic clips that secure the trunk liners? Trying not to break them! Also for those of you that have installed the baffle what did you do to the OEM trunk liners where they wrap around and secure to the angled brackets? Did you just cut these so that they are removed and then carpet the baffle after it was installed and sealed?

Any help is appreciated.

Opel

When I did the single sub baffle, the liners were outta the car (been out for a few years) , but I did my last dual sub baffle with the liners on. Didn't wanna take them out again, since I'd have to remove the battery, the water/meth pump and reservoir, and all that crap back there.... Its fairly easy, since I installed the baffle from inside the car, by removing the braces.

IIRC, most of the trunk liner fasteners spin out (they're threaded) and whatever clips there is, it shouldn't be too hard to pop out with a flat headed screwdriver.

As far as the part of the liners that hook behind the braces, I left them on, just resting folded against the baffle. They're stiff and will rest very tight, so it's not like they're gonna flop around

Some carpet to cover up the baffle and it will look decent.

I'll try and dig some pictures

rich20730

You've probably already taken them out, but if you play golf a divot repair tool works really well for popping those little clips out without breaking them.

For the trunk liners, I just cut mine short with an exacto knife and covered the baffle with black speaker carpet.

pohljm

OK! I have seen the baffles you guys have made and it looks like you have more height available on your baffle. Thats baffling because I am tight as a drum top to bottom in the car. tight to the braces. If I cut out a hole to recess the sub +/- 16" there will be less than an half an inch of material at the top and bottom of the baffle. the hole then can get as small as this 14" circle I have in the picture. so.............not alot more material little over an inch or so. It sure seems like you have more height to work with?

The other picture shows 16.5" clear inside and that is what my baffle is. Cannot make it any taller.

Is that really how everyone has theirs? There does not seem to be enough room behind the seat to flush mount the sub without recessing it so I need the larger hole.

I hate cars

That makes sense. My cutout hole was 14" and the outer diameter is 15.5". You can see that I don't really have a full 15", the subs are about the same size as the opening.



I mounted mine to the outer parameter and behind the bottom "hump" out of necessity since I'm running 2 subs which eliminated using the braces. I lost over an inch of trunk room but there's no way the subs can be damaged. I figured even at the full 2" of excursion and two fat people in the back seat there's still going to be plenty clearance.

Are you going to remove the plastic lining around the armrest while the seats are out? Also, don't mount the baffle to both the braces and the deck or any other part of the car. There's enough body flex that over bumps you can get a squeaking from the wood and metal rubbing.

Looking forward to your review of the Pyle sub in a TL. Hopefully you will like them as much as everyone else does. If your cutout is 14" (I think it is, right?) you can always swap an SBP15 in there in a few minutes down the road.

pohljm

I see what you did! Got you a couple inches more height and bonus clearance. Well I am gonna stick with the baffle mounted tight to the braces. attached only to the braces. I will now route out the hole just enough to recess the sub into the baffle just a little below flush. I have no idea how much excursion that Pyle sub will do. I have removed the pass thru door assembly. I am hoping that there will be enough clearance?

I am starting to rethink my amp placement. The 700/5 has the controls and connections on the same side, so although the under the seat intention is still possible its not as clean or convenient for mounting or adjustments.

I think I may mount the amp vertically to the back of the baffle along with crossovers and leave room for a potential processor. then cover with a vented beauty board with a cut out for the sub where it will protrude. I only need 3.5" of depth. Much like Jerry has done with his baffle.

It sure will be easier for any access and adjustments, just not so sure about having the electronics mounted to the baffle? Perhaps isolate on a thin foam sheet to try and decouple from the vibrations. longer low level runs from headunit to amp is a bit of a downside as well.

Pros? Cons?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

If you're panel is vibrating enough to do damage to electronics....you need another board of that baffle. Vibrations are killer, but you'll be fine if you double the baffle and put something to decouple.

A lot of people finishing up their setups lately! Mine sounds like a clock radio right now as my EQ is dead flat and it's sounded much better. Tweeters have TONS of static in them so I gotta hunt that down. Trying to find a cheap laptop to find bc it's impossible on a Palm.

I hate cars

I mounted my amps under the seats and shoved them all the way forward to make it nearly impossible to steal without removing the seats. This made adjusting them nearly impossible. I prefer under the seats because it's dead space but the back of the baffle is practically dead space as well. The floormats do a great job of hiding wiring and protecting the amps under the seats. I never realized how far under the seats the mats went until I installed the amps there. I've since moved mine back a little and it's easy to adjust, still out of the way, and the mats will hide any wiring on the same side. You can cut small slits in the carpet for the wiring to go straight down from the amp to under the carpet for only an inch or so of exposed wiring.

Mounting it on the baffle should be fine. I've mounted plenty amps to the subwoofer enclosure and never had any issues. It doesn't hurt to try and decouple though. I'm pretty sure the XD amps are fine to mount in that position but you might want to make sure for cooling purposes.

pohljm

Trunk! Baffle is 1.5" plywood and is very stiff,but vibrations will be present.

Had it looked at by the person that will be responsible for the amp install, and we looked at the seat location and decided to stay with that. He ultimately recommended that location to avoid the baffle vibrations and trunk heat. He wasnt to worried about the amp on the baffle, but was a no go for sure on the crossovers goin there.

So plan is back to the original ........amp under drivers seat and crossovers under passenger seat. He said he would put the amp on a sliding piece of aluminum if I was really concerned about getting to the controls easy.

I hate cars

I forgot the controls are on the top of the XDs, right? I would definitely go with a sliding tray although the seats have a lot of range if you don't mind sliding them forward to make adjustments. My amps are just a little larger than yours but from the picture it looks like it would be easy to fit but there's surprisingly little room. More than likely just by sliding the seats forward you'll be able to access controls.

pohljm

This is also a performance mod! That baffle is a chassis stiffener for sure. win win

I hate cars

Lol. You have to be careful it does not turn into a chassis member. You will end up with a lot of crackling sounds. Ask me how I know lol.