Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

The aux would still be using the HU though right? I understand that I could plug in my Iphone using a RCA to 3.5mm cable, but you'd still be using the HU to control volume, etc so would that still be like "using" the HU?

My mind is literally done for with all of this crap...

Thank you to everyone for helping me by the way!

I hate cars

Unplug one thing at a time. The noise will go away when you hit the right component. You can find the source of the noise in under 10 minutes.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Thought I posted this in here, but maybe not...

I just disconnected the "LEFT" tweeter RCA for all of this as it was simple to hear the change if it went awhile while in the car.


Left RCA disconnected from Q450.4 = Noise Gone
Put RCA back in and disconnected RCA from 360 output = Noise Gone
Put that back in & disconnected RCA into 360 input = Noise still there!

A guy on DIYMA told me that would mean its the 360 and told me to try to ground EVERYTHING to one spot to reduce different potentials. The convo:

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*** I pulled out the left tweeter and aimed it directly on axis so I could hear the most noise. Just so I could really tell if something was making a difference. So....

Left RCA disconnected from amp = Noise Gone
<then the amp is not the cause of the noise>

Put RCA back in and disconnected RCA from 360 output = Noise Gone
<still not the amp!>

Put that back in & disconnected 360 input = Noise still there!
<then it's the 360!>


Wouldn't that mean its the amp because there's no signal getting to the amp b/c it's cut off when I unplug the 360 input...but the tweeter still has noise. ??
The amp is NOT cut off when you disconnect the signal from the 360. If the 360 is generating noise, then it is a <source> to the amplifier. Savvi?

Check the GROUNDS of the 360. Lift the ground to the 360, and wire it up to the same grounding point as the amplifier. See if that helsp the problem.

The amp is not the issue ***

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So I wired up the 360 ground to the same spot as the amps (distro block), but still have noise.

I hate cars

That's a clear cut case. Check power and grounds. Disconnect the wires at both ends and reconnect even if they look good. I have no idea how the gain structure is in the 360 but is there any chance it's all the way up?

Opel

Using the aux intput on the 360 has nothing to do with the HU. From there on, volume is controlled through your input device (say ipod) and/or 360 itself, Through the knob if you have it hooked up.

Have you tried swapping that RCA with another? just to rule out the cable itself.

Also, I would plug in an ipod/phone directly into the amps input for that tweeter and rule out that channel/amp.

I had the 360 for 2 days, had to return it because bluetooth was fried.
I tapped a self tapping screw right under the stock amp to the left of it. There's metal there, and had no grounding issues at all.

Swap between cables, and channels on the 360.

I dont know how this got started but, I don't think our HU puts out a balanced signal. If that was the case, noise should be rejected from outside interference, and there wouldn't have been so many reports of electrical noise. There's a shield wire missing as well among HU outputs.
Anyone who's looked at this with more detail, please correct me.... I'm going to do some tests myself soon as well.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I pulled the ground for my amps that goes into the distro block and re-tightened it. I'll pull the ground(s) and power(s) coming in and going out of the the distro block and redo them.

The gain on the 3sixty is near the input you're using. It's just like a gain on an amp. When playing music you can clearly hear it getting louder as you turn the gain. That's what I was saying earlier though, with the gain on the 360 all the way down, gain all the way down on the Q450 and the dB Level/output level within the 360 software damn near all the way down it's still noisy.


Thanks for that. Good info. I'll try to find a cable to use and try the Aux input today or tomorrow.

Ours is missing a shield/ground b/c it's not a balanced signal, it's balanced differential. Difference being that a balanced signal has 3 wires (pos., neg., ground). Someone will correct me if I'm wrong and likely go into more detail, but that's the jist of it

-----------------------------

So yesterday I was driving home and heard a LOUD pop up near my tweeter. Scared the living hell out of me. Tweeter didn't blow though. When I got home and turned the car off I had a turn off pop from that tweeter and possible the passenger mid also (can't be sure on the location of the other pop though). Drove to work today and didn't hear a pop when I turned my car off. WTF is going on?

I'm trying to find a line driver locally to try out, but no luck yet. I really don't want to wait much longer in case it's possibly the amp and I'm over my return date.

Opel

Balanced differential makes sense. Thanks.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Yup. Now figure out my problem! lol

Really debating purchasing a line driver and literally re-wiring EVERYTHING. Pulling the wire and running it again to make it clean. There are a few spots, like near the pedals that the drivers side tweeter and midbass speaker wire comes very close to the power wire coming through the firewall and running down the side. Also, like a freakin idiot, I put the speaker wires in little holes in the passenger foot well to secure them when running them behind the console and to the drivers side......well......I didn't realize it was the hole that takes the footwell cover under the glovebox lol. Ugh

Can't decide if I should go with a BLD or something else. BLD is only 2 channels, but it's all I'd need as my processor or any processor will sum the signal. The Zuki line driver looks pretty nice, but it's $200. 11v outs!!!

I hate cars

A line driver won't help if the noise is still there with the 360 inputs unplugged which I think you said was the case.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Crap you're right. So I'm guessing I should try the iPhone/Aux and see what happens next??

Any more ideas?? Do you think it could be a bad grounding location?

So I'm going to unplug left tweeter and pull that wire out so it's not running along near the power wire. That can rule that out. I don't know if that would make the right side have noise too though. Hm. O well..doing it anyways. I'll try the Aux. of that doesn't work, I guess I'll move the grounds to a new spot.

You think it would help to upgrade that short little ground at the battery that run like 3-4" to the drivers side metal next to battery?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I forgot to ask...would it help if I just took the RCA inputs from the 3sixty and ran them straight into the Q450?? Obviously set the x-overs for whatever I'm testing, but wouldn't that rule out the 360 if there is still noise OR if it goes away show that the 360 is the problem somehow?

Would I need to disconnect the power/ground, etc to the 360 so it's not I the chain of things if I do this or does it not matter since it's being bypassed?

Opel

You can take the RCA inputs from the 360 and straight into the amp. If no noise, than its the 360. If there' still noise, then its either the HU, Amp, Cable, tweeter itself, xover if using any. Have you tried swapping tweeters from left to right?

I would start at the end of the chain. Plug ur phone through 3.5-rca into your amp and rule out anything from the amp to the tweeter.

BTW, that $200 line driver is useless, since if installed in front of the 360, the 360 puts out 5Vrms. That line driver is probably rated at 11v max, while at best 4vrms, which you don't need any more anyway.

I tried a line driver in front of the 360, only because I could not get the 360 gains to clip from the stock HU signal, Which meant it wasn't putting out its potential 5vrms. Tried many different dynamic songs, none could make it clip. Either way, I don't think that's gonna solve your problem. At least, you need to first find out why the noise is there, then proceed.

If its not a grounding issue, which i doubt it is, then finding out which component in your system is causing it shouldn't be too hard. Like Matt said, you can start unplugging things one at a time. Problem will pop up eventually.

I dont see why you need to unplug the 360 since you're bypassing it. But, if its not too hard for you to just pull the power connector, then do it.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

What would swapping the tweeters from left to right do? Do you mean physically swapping the left tweeter to right side and vise versa OR just swapping the speaker wire going into the amp left to right and right to left?

I'm going to stop by a few places on the way home and try to find a RCA to 3.5mm cable. Ratshack..I mean Radioshack? Walmart likely has them online, but they never have anything in store. Hmm. Might be going a few places. I'll try this and I'll try bypassing the 360 after work really quick just to see what happens. Wish me luck with that one lol. With my luck lately, my amp channel will decide to go bad and make my tweeter do a little dance and then toss that magic white smoke out.

The line driver theory was because a few guys here think that our signal picks up noise on the way to the processor/amps. Being lower voltage makes it more susceptible to noise I assume. That's funny you say you can't get the signal to clip either. I put the volume on 40 with Track #2 (Pink Noise) and with the gain all the way up on the 360 it wasn't clipping. Still, I don't like to go past volume 28-30, but at the moment volume 28-30 is like 12-14 MAYBE on most of you all's setups b/c of the noise that comes with turning the 360 and amp gains up.

Hopefully I can make some progress this evening

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Made a video of this that I'll post up later...

Bypassed the 360 & unplugged it, then ran the RCA's into the Q450. On the lowest gain, I can still hear faint noise. It changes pitch while pressing the gas too. Getting up into roughly 1/4 to 1/2 gain and the noise gets really loud again. Small, faint crackling like its been doing, etc. So I guess that rules out the processor.

niebur3

Go directly into the amp from an iPod so you can definitely rule out the amp.

Opel

I thought you said the noise was coming out of the left tweeter, thats why I said swap them, physically. You can get the 3.5 to rca at radioshack. At least the ones around here always have them in the store. And yes, since you bypassed the 360 and noise is still there, then its not the 360.

If the 360 is in the trunk and you're feeding it with preamp hu outputs all the way there, can you temporarily hook up the 360 upfront, as close to HU as possible? this would also rule out if you're picking up any interference along the way. I dont know how you ran your wires, but I soldered some rca cables onto the HU outputs, then using couplings I can either take them all the way to the trunk, or hook up a linedriver/processor upfront without needing to rewire or resolder anything at all.

I hate cars

So you have the noise worse with the 360 hooked up and it's better but still there with just the amp hooked up and no inputs into the amp? There's going to be a little noise floor with any amp. I can turn my 900/5 all the way up on the tweeters and get a very small amount of hiss but 100w on a tweeter is not the norm. With the gains pretty aggressive I have no system noise.

To clarify, the 360 is the main source of noise, right? Jerry can correct me if I'm wrong but the only time I've had ignition or alternator whine is when there was a bad power or ground or power run next to low level signal. Weren't there noise floor issues with some of the 360s?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I'm going to pick up a cable tomorrow and just run it into the amp. Probably try the 360 aux just to see too.

No I meant I just used the left tweeter b/c it was easy to hear when I went back and shut the door and listened for noise while in a car with all the doors shut, engine on, etc. I can try to connect the 360 up front near the factory amp, but I don't have an RCA long enough right now to run to the trunk. I'd like to run it outside the car and have the 360 outside the car also. Gave my 25' RCA to SharksBreath on here

I used this: http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...SL-09ZISL.html

I have noise going through the 360. I have noise with the gains on the 360 all the way up and all the way down. I have noise with the amp gains all the way up and all the way down...and all configurations in between with amp/processor. That's all with the dB Level of the 360 near -40 on a scale from 0 to -40.

Hooked up the pre-amp RCA's directly into the Q450. Still have noise. Odd thing is that I shut the car off and turned it back on and got that clicking/static noise like when you use an amp that doesn't accept balanced AND/OR without a line-driver/processor. Either the Q450 does NOT accept balanced like it says OR the issue isn't a balanced signal with the static in tweeters that people are getting.

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Another thing......when I unplugged the 360 and put the RCA's into the Q, actually...this has happened before when going through the 360 so never mind the configuration, BUT the sub makes a rhythmic noise. Thump...thump....thump.....thump. Every second or 3/4 second it seems like. The loudness of this thump is VERY low, but slightly audible and seen and felt when you're directly in front of the sub. Almost like someone is playing a rhythmic beat on a drum but at very faint volume. By the way, this happens with NO VOLUME on the head unit. NONE! I can't remember for certain how it stops, but I want to say once I turned the volume up to 1+ then it stopped. What in the hell!

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Personally....that thumping sounds like a ground loop. Like a low volume heartbeat is what it sounds like!! But again, it happens when the volume on the HU is on 0. I'm starting to think it's something with the ground(s). And the fact that it changes pitch when pressing the gas. That happens when bypassing the 360 and just going straight into the Q450

Opel

Something came to mind....
Are both your amps grounded on the same location under the same bolt?
If so, try and run your speaker amp with the sub amp off.
Reason for this is that the sub amp might be causing ground modulation off of the speaker amp from higher power demand and can cause noise .
Just another thing to try I guess.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

First off, just did the 3rd & 4th pressure switches...OMG amazing!!!


And about the audio, got a RCA-->3.5(mono) cable today and plug in my IPhone straight to the amp...NO NOISE.

Opel- both amps use the same ground point. I have the Scosche Delta D-block distro block. I can't link it right now, but have a look.

Opel

I think you're picking something up along the way to your trunk. I think if you hook up the 360 upfront, so the signal going into your amp will be at about 4-5vrms from the 360, you will get rid of the noise. It wouldn't hurt to try hooking up the 360 up front, as close to the source as possible

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I just need to buy a 20' or so RCA. Any other thoughts?

I need to try and replicate that thumping sound again. The only think I can think of there is ground loop, but you'd think if it was grounding issue then I'd still have noise when playing the iPod through the amp (no 360).

Opel

20' is way more than enough.

If the ground loop is caused by the 360, I don't think youd have noise when bypassing it. Unless you keep it powered up while bypassing it.
This is weird bcs I ran the pre amp signal directly into the amp without a line driver and had no issues. My cables ran through the center console, under the carpet after the console, under the back seat and into the trunk. No issues. Maybe if id done it under the plastic trims on the pass side like most do, id experience issues, who knows. Theres more power wires going through there.
Now I have the matrix plus under the passenger seat and amp still in the trunk. No issues, at least none that I can hear, except for the flat signal LOL

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I guess I'll try to pick up a longer RCA and move the 360 up front. The build date on this 360 is Nov2006, so maybe it was one of the one's with noise floor issues due to being an early build.

Might try to relocate grounds also. Anyone have a good location for grounds? I'm using a spot right behind the ski-pass where a factory ground was already being used. Someone said it might be near the fuel pump or something and I could be picking up noise/interference due to that, but who knows. Seriously running out of idea's...

jda123

That ground is fine. I use it in one car once I ground all of the paint off of it.

Opel

I found the bottom brace bolts behind the rear seat to be the best place to use for ground. Thats where i grounded my amp. I wouldnt go on the same spot as factory grounds

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

So so you all think it's a 360 issue or noise issue on the way to the 360?

I'll plug the iPhone into the 360 aux just to rule that out too. Maybe I'll push my amp through the ski-pass, wire up the 360 near factory amp and try to use my 6' RCA to reach lol. If not I'll go but a female RCA to femal RCA adapter and try it. That would help me figure out which one it is I guess.

The Monoprice premium RCA's I'm using fit VERY tight, do you think that could be an issue? I know for my mid channel on the 360, one of the outputs (left I think) wouldn't come o and I jiggled the RCA out a tad and it came on.

Trunk Monkey

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Sometimes I wish I just left it stock...

jda123

My offer is still good if you want to make the roadie up 44 and 71. We could get you out of here sounding good.

Fulani has a TL

iTrader: (1)

You're not the only one with the "random" thumping sound. Sometimes mine is loud, to the point where I am afraid I'm going to blow a sub.....

Going to try replacing battery, as I already have to keep a battery tender on it just to keep it alive... How old is your battery? I will report back tomorrow, if that fixes it. (might be one fix of the many for you!)

Fulani has a TL

iTrader: (1)

You're not the only one with the "random" thumping sound. Sometimes mine is loud, to the point where I am afraid I'm going to blow a sub.....

Going to try replacing battery, as I already have to keep a battery tender on it just to keep it alive... How old is your battery? I will report back tomorrow, if that fixes it. (might be one fix of the many for you!)

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

How often does your thumping occur? My is a very low volume rhythmic thumping that's like a heartbeat. If a battery fixes your problems then I'll be pissed. My battery (Interstate Megatron Plus) is under 5months or so old. I've been a little worried lately as it just doesn't start like it did when I first had the battery replaced. Kinda weird for a battery of it's caliber too. Not a bad battery by any means

Fulani has a TL

iTrader: (1)

If I have all the sound off, I could see the subs "breathing" pulsing in and out; but than at times it will thump loudly, and it randomly happens, I could be driving down the highway and all of a sudden THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP. Sometimes 1 or 2 times, and sometimes 7-8 times. First time it happened, it scared the crap out of me!

Have you had the battery load tested?

Fulani has a TL

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Just to provide feedback as I told you, but I think I may have just had a grounding issue. Tested my battery this morning and it was still holding at 12.7 from yesterday morning....

Trunk Monkey

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Alright, I got the 3sixty.2 sold and I'm about to pick up the MS-8. I wouldn't mind picking up the Alpine H600 (even the 700 or 701 if they're the same crap as the 600, MS-8, etc), but a few people have said that the MS-8 likely does a better job of the autoEQ. I'll get to play with this for awhile and figure out more about what I hear, dynamics, stage, width, etc and then after awhile change to a Bit.1.

My question is for anyone that uses an MS-8 or processor that uses the center, is it worth it to try to upgrade the center? I'd basically have to pick up a 5.25" or whatever ID cxs coaxial (if this would fit), but I'd just need one. Maybe someone else with the ID CXS/XS would go in with me since we'd just need 1 each

I hate cars

If you plan on using Logic 7, the center is the most important speaker. This should be the one you blow your money on. Bigger is better, I used a 6.5" in there but unfortunately it was a cheap 6.5 and didn't sound that good. Ideally you want the center to be able to keep up with the doors in SPL and with the same highpass filter. If I was going to keep the MS8 I would have tried the Dyn430 and tweeter Jerry had. I would place sound quality of the center above pure output if I could only have one or the other. The little 3.5" Dyn 430 easily plays 200hz and is probably the best sounding mid on the planet. It's worth a try if you have the funds.

What I've found with it is it does a good job of a phantom center image without the center but it can only image in one seat at a time without the center. With the center you can get it to image in both seats at the same time. I liked it better without the center but that could very well be because I had Esotars everywhere except for the center where it had one of Massive's lowest lines which produced the worse Klippel results ever.

For sure, put a good center in there, it will make or break the system. Also, if you have enough amplification you can run rears for a full Logic 7. I heard this setup in a Corvette and it's really neat. It adds another dimension to the music. The rears only produce out of phase information so if you fade to the rear only it sounds very weird. It sounds like you have a bad connection with the music breaking up in small bursts, but as a whole system it's pretty realistic.

You can easily fit a 6.5" in the center diameter wise. You pull the clock display out and shove a speaker in there. The hard part is squeezing the speaker past the AC vents. Once you do that, it's a big hollow space in there. You could probably do a 10" if you could get it past the vents.

If autotune is your main goal, the MS8 easily has them all beat.

Trunk Monkey

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.

I hate cars

The way the MS8 does L7 and the rears and sides is different than regular surround. The rears reinforce the front stage. They give you more depth and ambiance b it's not surround sound in the traditional sense. Sitting in the utdriver's seat, you'll have no clue the rears are on and you're not going to hear anything coming from behind you. It does neat things with TA and phase.

It's just like with the phantom center. One of the engineers at work that heard the car was so convinced there was sound coming from the center channel I had to pull the grill off and show him the empty hole.

If you turn L7 off, the center is turned off as well. You still have the usual seat settings, driver, passenger, front, rear, and all. I usually do two tunes, the driver and passenger. For the passenger tune I remain in the driver's seat. It basically gives me two driver's seat tunes under a different label. If you're curious what different head positions can do during the auto tune, just do one tune normal and the "passenger" tune from the driver's seat using different head positions and you'll have a back to back comparison when you switch between driver and passenger.

If you set it to the "front" setting I believe the front sides are time aligned to each other so if you have a 3-way, the midbass, mid, and tweeter all arrive to your ear at the same time but they're no longer TA'd from left to right. The center now takes care of the center image.

I don't suggest putting a 10" up front, just stating there's a lot of room in there. The MS8 does a great job with up front bass. Even with the subs lowpassed at 90hz it's pretty good. If you boost the heck out of your subs, you're still going to be able to locate them.

There are some things to be careful of. It's not a big deal but in order to keep bass up front, when you turn the subwoofer up, it will also turn the midbass up as well and slightly lower the midbass crossover point. Never a problem until I was screwing around with a 50hz highpass on the mids with some bass boost and the volume cranked. I bottomed one of my 650s by accident, nothing like the sound of a $1,000 midbass attempting to kill itself.

Dash rattles were never a problem with the center going. You can easily isolate it from the rest of the car. It sounds cheesy but I put a bunch of rags for the center to sit on, probably 3" thick and foam between the speaker and dash so the speaker was completely isolated from the car. No rattles and no deadening.

If you decide to put something nice in there, let me know if you want to go in halves on a set of speakers. It's kind of hard to purchase just one from most places. I might also see if Jerry still has the 430 available but I still don't know if I want to keep the MS8 much longer.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Alright...there's a guy selling a PG PLD-1 Line Driver on DIYMA for decently cheap so I think I might pick that up. PG's older stuff was pretty solid. My other option is the RF BLD from Amazon (have a amazon gift card for $75, but I'm sure I can find something else).

Another question I have is for those that have a line driver up near the factory amp. Where did you put the ground, power, remote? Also...how long do you think it is for a run from the factory amp to the trunk? About to pick up a few digital coax cables from Monoprice...think 12 feet is enough?