Goal: Competition Ready Sound System
05-18-2009, 11:09 PM
#41
I have to gove you a lot of credit for hanging around here and answering questions.
cause if it was me, you could not pry me out of the car for quite some time. I would be stock in it for a while listening to my fav. tunes....
05-18-2009, 11:28 PM
#43
I was questioning the ability of tunners ear, it would be cool to see, the diffrence in components make on a graph.
I have to gove you a lot of credit for hanging around here and answering questions.
cause if it was me, you could not pry me out of the car for quite some time. I would be stock in it for a while listening to my fav. tunes....
I have to gove you a lot of credit for hanging around here and answering questions.
cause if it was me, you could not pry me out of the car for quite some time. I would be stock in it for a while listening to my fav. tunes....
meant to say I was not questioning
05-18-2009, 11:54 PM
#45
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I know what you meant 
Of course there are charts independantly, but I haven't found anything that compares the zapco's and seas side by side, and it would have been nice to get readings of each in my car for a direct comparison. I think at this level of components you really start to get into personal preference...
Went for a long cruise yesterday just to listen to tunes...
Of course there are charts independantly, but I haven't found anything that compares the zapco's and seas side by side, and it would have been nice to get readings of each in my car for a direct comparison. I think at this level of components you really start to get into personal preference...Went for a long cruise yesterday just to listen to tunes...
05-19-2009, 12:21 AM
#46
Team Owner
Rated at 2650 (dc1000.4, dc1100.1, and dc650.6)...
Completely different bass set-up then Jason...mine won't make a phone dance on top of the car Much more transparent and seamlessly disappear into the front stage...those that like jason's may not like mine. It's kind of like choosing between ice cream flavors, their all good, just depends on what you are in the mood for...
Completely different bass set-up then Jason...mine won't make a phone dance on top of the car
Much more transparent and seamlessly disappear into the front stage...those that like jason's may not like mine. It's kind of like choosing between ice cream flavors, their all good, just depends on what you are in the mood for...
05-19-2009, 12:39 AM
#47
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i will try to answer some of the questions posted here that perhaps mike cant?
1. i competed in iasca by 10 years ago. as far as having a stock electrical system, that was never a deduction as far as i recall for having that. what is a deduction is that your power wire for example, is not to the proper guage of the amp's current consumption given efficiency and lengths. also, things like having too big of a fuse, imporperly secured terminals etc etc...will incur a deduction. this hasnt changed. but there was no rule that one must run a bigger alternator or different battery. this is as far as i knew from back in the late 90s...so maybe its earlier? not usre on USAC however, maybe they did becuaes they are very much even more anal
you can download the current rulebook from www.iasca.com
as for midrange crossover freq, wtih a three way such as this, ideally you want midbass in the door to be as band limited as possible, i hvae hte file on my laptop, iw ill grab it if you want. but if i recall correctly, the midbass goes from 70hz ish to around 200-250, wtih the mids going from 3-400 up to around 3k or so, maybe 3500, wtih the tweets starting at 4500-5k. there usually is always an underlap of speakres the way its tuned. but again, looking at a graph mean very little. perfect example is the two G35s i took with me to the comp this weekend, same speaker, same amps pretty much, same exact car. but vastly different tune files on them, yet they both came out doing well
and remmeber, a screen shot of the zapco's software isnt an RTA graph, its juts what its doing digitally about the signal. I think an RTA graph would give you a better idea of how different speakres react diffferently.
i should make it to this all cali meet, when is it? hehe
1. i competed in iasca by 10 years ago. as far as having a stock electrical system, that was never a deduction as far as i recall for having that. what is a deduction is that your power wire for example, is not to the proper guage of the amp's current consumption given efficiency and lengths. also, things like having too big of a fuse, imporperly secured terminals etc etc...will incur a deduction. this hasnt changed. but there was no rule that one must run a bigger alternator or different battery. this is as far as i knew from back in the late 90s...so maybe its earlier? not usre on USAC however, maybe they did becuaes they are very much even more anal
you can download the current rulebook from www.iasca.com
as for midrange crossover freq, wtih a three way such as this, ideally you want midbass in the door to be as band limited as possible, i hvae hte file on my laptop, iw ill grab it if you want. but if i recall correctly, the midbass goes from 70hz ish to around 200-250, wtih the mids going from 3-400 up to around 3k or so, maybe 3500, wtih the tweets starting at 4500-5k. there usually is always an underlap of speakres the way its tuned. but again, looking at a graph mean very little. perfect example is the two G35s i took with me to the comp this weekend, same speaker, same amps pretty much, same exact car. but vastly different tune files on them, yet they both came out doing well
and remmeber, a screen shot of the zapco's software isnt an RTA graph, its juts what its doing digitally about the signal. I think an RTA graph would give you a better idea of how different speakres react diffferently.
i should make it to this all cali meet, when is it? hehe
05-19-2009, 12:43 AM
#48
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oh, on the question of cancelation. sub cancelation really isnt a problem in a car.
the frequencies that subs produce in the car, for hte most part is wider than the car itself, the hcances of them caneling is very small if you can imagine?
what usually happens with cancelation in cars is mids canceling each other, or subs caneling mids or vice versa..., basically requiring the speakrs that produce the "smaller" freq.
b
the frequencies that subs produce in the car, for hte most part is wider than the car itself, the hcances of them caneling is very small if you can imagine?
what usually happens with cancelation in cars is mids canceling each other, or subs caneling mids or vice versa..., basically requiring the speakrs that produce the "smaller" freq.
b
05-19-2009, 12:45 AM
#49
Team Owner
i will try to answer some of the questions posted here that perhaps mike cant?
1. i competed in iasca by 10 years ago. as far as having a stock electrical system, that was never a deduction as far as i recall for having that. what is a deduction is that your power wire for example, is not to the proper guage of the amp's current consumption given efficiency and lengths. also, things like having too big of a fuse, imporperly secured terminals etc etc...will incur a deduction. this hasnt changed. but there was no rule that one must run a bigger alternator or different battery. this is as far as i knew from back in the late 90s...so maybe its earlier? not usre on USAC however, maybe they did becuaes they are very much even more anal
you can download the current rulebook from www.iasca.com
as for midrange crossover freq, wtih a three way such as this, ideally you want midbass in the door to be as band limited as possible, i hvae hte file on my laptop, iw ill grab it if you want. but if i recall correctly, the midbass goes from 70hz ish to around 200-250, wtih the mids going from 3-400 up to around 3k or so, maybe 3500, wtih the tweets starting at 4500-5k. there usually is always an underlap of speakres the way its tuned. but again, looking at a graph mean very little. perfect example is the two G35s i took with me to the comp this weekend, same speaker, same amps pretty much, same exact car. but vastly different tune files on them, yet they both came out doing well
and remmeber, a screen shot of the zapco's software isnt an RTA graph, its juts what its doing digitally about the signal. I think an RTA graph would give you a better idea of how different speakres react diffferently.
i should make it to this all cali meet, when is it? hehe
1. i competed in iasca by 10 years ago. as far as having a stock electrical system, that was never a deduction as far as i recall for having that. what is a deduction is that your power wire for example, is not to the proper guage of the amp's current consumption given efficiency and lengths. also, things like having too big of a fuse, imporperly secured terminals etc etc...will incur a deduction. this hasnt changed. but there was no rule that one must run a bigger alternator or different battery. this is as far as i knew from back in the late 90s...so maybe its earlier? not usre on USAC however, maybe they did becuaes they are very much even more anal
you can download the current rulebook from www.iasca.com
as for midrange crossover freq, wtih a three way such as this, ideally you want midbass in the door to be as band limited as possible, i hvae hte file on my laptop, iw ill grab it if you want. but if i recall correctly, the midbass goes from 70hz ish to around 200-250, wtih the mids going from 3-400 up to around 3k or so, maybe 3500, wtih the tweets starting at 4500-5k. there usually is always an underlap of speakres the way its tuned. but again, looking at a graph mean very little. perfect example is the two G35s i took with me to the comp this weekend, same speaker, same amps pretty much, same exact car. but vastly different tune files on them, yet they both came out doing well
and remmeber, a screen shot of the zapco's software isnt an RTA graph, its juts what its doing digitally about the signal. I think an RTA graph would give you a better idea of how different speakres react diffferently.
i should make it to this all cali meet, when is it? hehe
This is one of the meets: https://acurazine.com/forums/california-308/all-cali-meet-july-18th-woodward-park-fresno-ca-714715/
Underlapping?? I'm going to try that just for the heck of it.
05-19-2009, 01:20 AM
#50
the ability of a driver to reproduce music as the artist meant it to be.... that is hardest quest to reproduce in our environment.
"off topic"
I recall seating once, in a multi award winning car for many years till it retired.
and listened to the system with eyes closed.
the singer started walking from back toward the stage. I could tell exactly where she was. then she stopped and start singing. this particular car sounded so real, when I oppened my eyes. I expected to see the performer to my right side. crazy yes. but it was very illusional and sounded very real. till this day, I have not heard anything like it... meaning so true to life.
the funny part or the moral of this storys, that car only had 6 drivers.
your install looks fantastic and it should do pretty well.
good luck to you.
05-19-2009, 01:45 AM
#51
to simplicityinsound, thanks for answering.
yeah it was in early 90's when IASCA actually did those deductions. basicaly if you had so much power you needed so much of elctrical energy to back it up, if you did not have it point's were deducted. and power wire and fuse had to match as well....
at that time: main manufacturers start realising the so called "cheater amps" do you recall those?
basically an amp put out 22 watt's a channel and only needed a stock alternator.
in reality it would be in 500 to a 1000 watt category.
well some competitors took that and ran, one of them was Lucio Proni. he ran his entire system of one "22 or 44" so called amp.... lol, good old days.
there are others but oh well. I will leave this well alone.
But I will ask you this? why did you pick this drivers. instead of say morel, cantons or other one's?
once again great looking install.
yeah it was in early 90's when IASCA actually did those deductions. basicaly if you had so much power you needed so much of elctrical energy to back it up, if you did not have it point's were deducted. and power wire and fuse had to match as well....
at that time: main manufacturers start realising the so called "cheater amps" do you recall those?
basically an amp put out 22 watt's a channel and only needed a stock alternator.
in reality it would be in 500 to a 1000 watt category.
well some competitors took that and ran, one of them was Lucio Proni. he ran his entire system of one "22 or 44" so called amp.... lol, good old days.
there are others but oh well. I will leave this well alone.
But I will ask you this? why did you pick this drivers. instead of say morel, cantons or other one's?
once again great looking install.
05-19-2009, 02:39 AM
#52
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well, i am partial to seas i prefer it to the sound of most morels, and I LOVE morels. i think price for price, i prefer the osund of ht seas lotus ref over the comprabaly morels. canton i havent had much experince wtih lately, but of course there are other great drivers out there, but this happens to be the one i carry and i love
its hard to pin point why i love seas so much, but any home audio nut would prolly know better, as along with companies such as scanspeak and vifa, seas is a major player in the highend OEM driver market for home audio...you tend to find their drives in really high end drivers much more so than say, morel.
and the lotus drivers, is basically the same as the seas excel driver, but 4ohm and treated for car, so you can getting a very high end driver here for car usage. hehe..
earl 90s haha, i dont think i was even in the country back then...muchless knowing what car audio is
cheater amps were still the norm when we competed, as long as there was a power class, there is a need for cheater amps but often, more relevant in the lower power classes
you remember hte sound stream half watt amps? lol rated at 2x.25 watt and 1x.5 watt bridged, and they tested it, loaded down to 1ohm and fed 14.4 reactive load, it made around 800-1000 watts
i prefer it to the sound of most morels, and I LOVE morels. i think price for price, i prefer the osund of ht seas lotus ref over the comprabaly morels. canton i havent had much experince wtih lately, but of course there are other great drivers out there, but this happens to be the one i carry and i love its hard to pin point why i love seas so much, but any home audio nut would prolly know better, as along with companies such as scanspeak and vifa, seas is a major player in the highend OEM driver market for home audio...you tend to find their drives in really high end drivers much more so than say, morel.
and the lotus drivers, is basically the same as the seas excel driver, but 4ohm and treated for car, so you can getting a very high end driver here for car usage. hehe..
earl 90s haha, i dont think i was even in the country back then...muchless knowing what car audio is
cheater amps were still the norm when we competed, as long as there was a power class, there is a need for cheater amps
but often, more relevant in the lower power classes you remember hte sound stream half watt amps? lol rated at 2x.25 watt and 1x.5 watt bridged, and they tested it, loaded down to 1ohm and fed 14.4 reactive load, it made around 800-1000 watts
05-19-2009, 07:13 AM
#53
earl 90s haha, i dont think i was even in the country back then...muchless knowing what car audio is
cheater amps were still the norm when we competed, as long as there was a power class, there is a need for cheater amps
but often, more relevant in the lower power classes you remember hte sound stream half watt amps? lol rated at 2x.25 watt and 1x.5 watt bridged, and they tested it, loaded down to 1ohm and fed 14.4 reactive load, it made around 800-1000 watts
yes sir those soundstreams, along with phoenix gold mps series, orion, ppi, were some of the big boys in the day. now it seems like it all went away, sorta speak....
by the way if not minding me asking where are you from?
05-19-2009, 09:34 AM
#54
Burning Brakes
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So, my goal is to get it set up to sound good to me, screw the artist, they aren't sitting in my car everyday
...hearing the footsteps, the straps on the bottom of a snare drum rattling, a breath, or subtle harmonics a musician throws in the background is way cool.
05-19-2009, 09:51 AM
#55
yes sir it is. and that's what separates a high end sound system from a high powered one with lot's of 12's or 15's. at least in my opinion.
05-19-2009, 11:28 AM
#56
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to achieve that kind of realism is tough for sure. i have heard prolly 20 or so cars that i would call on that level, out of the hundreds i have heard myself. often, a specific interior aids in that process, as well as of course, dash reconstruction and very specific driver mounting.
a car with a wide and flat and very deep dash, with dash mounted or pillar speakres, can do wonders, the most recent examples of this kind of depths in a sound stage, i heard, was a EMMA (euro comp) winning beatle and a ford Smax van, also of EMMA. you sit so far back and the dash so expansive...
a car with a wide and flat and very deep dash, with dash mounted or pillar speakres, can do wonders, the most recent examples of this kind of depths in a sound stage, i heard, was a EMMA (euro comp) winning beatle and a ford Smax van, also of EMMA. you sit so far back and the dash so expansive...
05-19-2009, 12:34 PM
#57
Safety Car
I hate....if ur ever in NY you can hear mine and play it as loud as youd like lol.... Its pure SQ and as CS would say concert volumes..... studio quality. since mine is 6spd i put additional speakers in my front doors instead of kick panels. people who sit in the back of the car are really surprised at the acoustics in the tl because i didnt even connect the back speakers. they get fooled thinking there are speakers back there.... CHICO I love your trunk.... the cleanliness is beautiful and discreet.... its nothing that hurts your eyes when u look at it.
05-19-2009, 12:42 PM
#58
Team Owner
I hate....if ur ever in NY you can hear mine and play it as loud as youd like lol.... Its pure SQ and as CS would say concert volumes..... studio quality. since mine is 6spd i put additional speakers in my front doors instead of kick panels. people who sit in the back of the car are really surprised at the acoustics in the tl because i didnt even connect the back speakers. they get fooled thinking there are speakers back there.... CHICO I love your trunk.... the cleanliness is beautiful and discreet.... its nothing that hurts your eyes when u look at it.
.... Planning a trip toward the end of summer.
05-19-2009, 07:51 PM
#61
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05-19-2009, 09:20 PM
#62
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That, and my hearing aids and false teeth don't do too well with heavy bass 
05-20-2009, 01:20 AM
#64
Burning Brakes
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Are you running 4000 watts to 2 12's? What are the 12's ratted to handle? Are the gains turned all the way up? Is the enclosures you put the 12's in to spec?
05-20-2009, 09:07 AM
#65
Safety Car
michigan..... you need ot get yourself an O-scope if you plan on installing this stuff yourself.....your ears lie to u when u think its all good.....the actual electronic devices that tell u where its time to leave the settings alone dont lie. ive done it plenty of times.....i can get very close to tuning systems without the oscope (like anyone who works on them all the time) but i still dont trust ears over testing equipment. I use my multimeter my laptop and o-scope and most importantly....scientific calculator. even if ur box is to spec it can be out of spec depending on what your trying to accomplish.... it sounds like you just want a loudspeaker system and the spec mtx supplies u with should be ok. maybe you amp needs some fine tuning. if theres a stereo shop and the guys seem to know what they are doing and you arent doing this yourself.... ask them to tune it.... obviously its not free but its well worth not blowing ur system up
Last edited by Tripnbeats; 05-20-2009 at 09:09 AM.
05-20-2009, 09:15 AM
#66
Team Owner
michigan..... you need ot get yourself an O-scope if you plan on installing this stuff yourself.....your ears lie to u when u think its all good.....the actual electronic devices that tell u where its time to leave the settings alone dont lie. ive done it plenty of times.....i can get very close to tuning systems without the oscope (like anyone who works on them all the time) but i still dont trust ears over testing equipment. I use my multimeter my laptop and o-scope and most importantly....scientific calculator. even if ur box is to spec it can be out of spec depending on what your trying to accomplish.... it sounds like you just want a loudspeaker system and the spec mtx supplies u with should be ok. maybe you amp needs some fine tuning. if theres a stereo shop and the guys seem to know what they are doing and you arent doing this yourself.... ask them to tune it.... obviously its not free but its well worth not blowing ur system up
05-20-2009, 09:20 AM
#67
Safety Car
ummmm you can learn a bit from the12volt.com everyone there helps plus there are alot of calculations to learn from to see how u actually determine real time power. or you can ask me or im sure any of the other guys like csw im not sure if chico does this as a hobby or pro but he seems good as well. i got my master mecp last year so id like to think im fairly knowledgable at this stuff lol.
05-20-2009, 10:10 PM
#68
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Bing - great work again!! A few months ago I was thinking of doing something similar....but still need the trunk space and hopefully will start going to the track more often. Mike, let me know the next time you're in the area - I didn't get to hear the system this time before you picked up your car
05-20-2009, 10:49 PM
#69
Burning Brakes
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05-20-2009, 10:51 PM
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Bing - great work again!! A few months ago I was thinking of doing something similar....but still need the trunk space and hopefully will start going to the track more often. Mike, let me know the next time you're in the area - I didn't get to hear the system this time before you picked up your car
05-21-2009, 01:27 AM
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well i think if you want to become a good tuner, reading is just a small part of it. first one needs to have a good ear, then a good reference system, preferablly a good home audio system, and then just a lot of listening, relistening, and practice to be sorta tell what sound corresponds to what freq. and then, there is the additional leaning curve of be able to acutally tell what is going in a car environment and what is best to correct it.
i never had the interest or time to devote fully into it. whcih is why i just do the rough tuning, and then hand it over to a true tuner. i myself can tell how a car sounds, but if you ask me to acutally say what freq needs this or that, there is only 3-4 distinct areas i can immediately go to and change if i hear it, the rest subtle stuff, i have no clue hehe.
Mike you are staying for the sunday comp as well? i think i wanna get even more cars going to that one for my little team, hopefully 5-6
b
i never had the interest or time to devote fully into it. whcih is why i just do the rough tuning, and then hand it over to a true tuner. i myself can tell how a car sounds, but if you ask me to acutally say what freq needs this or that, there is only 3-4 distinct areas i can immediately go to and change if i hear it, the rest subtle stuff, i have no clue hehe.
Mike you are staying for the sunday comp as well? i think i wanna get even more cars going to that one for my little team, hopefully 5-6
b
05-21-2009, 09:28 AM
#72
Safety Car
yea I thought reading was the way to go but all i learned from that was "god im confused!" then, when it was all broken down in school and actually being able to apply what u learned, is where u start to see and understand y the properties of whats being done.... to either tune or install or run cable or whatever it is ur doing, exist or mean what they mean.
your tune is as good as ur reference......so if u bomb at listening to a cd and u still dont know the bells n whistles of the music on it then your system is gonna bomb as well.
your tune is as good as ur reference......so if u bomb at listening to a cd and u still dont know the bells n whistles of the music on it then your system is gonna bomb as well.
05-21-2009, 10:13 AM
#73
Burning Brakes
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05-21-2009, 12:42 PM
#76
well i think if you want to become a good tuner, reading is just a small part of it. first one needs to have a good ear, then a good reference system, preferablly a good home audio system, and then just a lot of listening, relistening, and practice to be sorta tell what sound corresponds to what freq. and then, there is the additional leaning curve of be able to acutally tell what is going in a car environment and what is best to correct it.
i never had the interest or time to devote fully into it. whcih is why i just do the rough tuning, and then hand it over to a true tuner. i myself can tell how a car sounds, but if you ask me to acutally say what freq needs this or that, there is only 3-4 distinct areas i can immediately go to and change if i hear it, the rest subtle stuff, i have no clue hehe.
Mike you are staying for the sunday comp as well? i think i wanna get even more cars going to that one for my little team, hopefully 5-6
b
i never had the interest or time to devote fully into it. whcih is why i just do the rough tuning, and then hand it over to a true tuner. i myself can tell how a car sounds, but if you ask me to acutally say what freq needs this or that, there is only 3-4 distinct areas i can immediately go to and change if i hear it, the rest subtle stuff, i have no clue hehe.
Mike you are staying for the sunday comp as well? i think i wanna get even more cars going to that one for my little team, hopefully 5-6
b
there are people around who think they have a high sound quality car, then they listen to a system that is pure sound quality and they think theirs sound better...
05-21-2009, 12:45 PM
#77
Safety Car
fade ur right. best music to tune systems is rock music, it covers various dynamic components of music. if u get some dude tuning ur system to rap IMO theres an issue...lol not in the guys taste in music but in tuning taste.
05-21-2009, 01:06 PM
#78
Team Owner
That's what I'm expecting. I do think mine sounds good but that's comparing it to friends that listen to mostly rap and one note bass. CSW's system definately sounded better than mine in every way and his isn't a pure SQ system. I'm figuring this upcoming Acura meet is going to cost me a couple grand......after I hear ChicoOG's system.
05-21-2009, 01:40 PM
#80
That's what I'm expecting. I do think mine sounds good but that's comparing it to friends that listen to mostly rap and one note bass. CSW's system definately sounded better than mine in every way and his isn't a pure SQ system. I'm figuring this upcoming Acura meet is going to cost me a couple grand......after I hear ChicoOG's system.
IASCA prepped system cost over... never mind I will let you find out instead...
you never answered on those links that I sent you in PM...
when I was into this... it could easily reach in to 10's grand.... ask Mike how many times he rebuild his car? to my understanding this is like 3rd or 4th time. it does get pricey.
I will say this much when everything is installed properly... not just thrown in and the installer states it is installed.
then it would be very easily changed from sq to spl in matter of a few changes sorta speak.... granted the spl requires more equipment.
as for CSW's install, he is still working on it, and I will give him credit. his car can easily be turned into SQ.....
hope all this makes some sense....