Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

Okay, seems like everyone is using it for the TL. I was hoping to get away without it but if it's needed for the systems I've seen it used for on here, I will need it. My thing is, I can't seem to find it at a reasonably price. I keep finding sheets that are something like 36" by 36". That sheet might be enough for the trunk lid?

Anyway, I know most of you on here don't ahem, 'waste' money so there's got to be somewhere to get the stuff at a decent rate. Any suggestions? Also, do you buy it by a roll of like 20ft, or just in sheets?

Thanks guys and gals,
Rob

eggyhustles

you could look into raamat or second skin

csmeance

second skin is probably one of the best ones out there, however if you want to go cheap, you could buy Peel and Seal for metal roofs at homedepot. As with any tar product, you car will stink for a bit... however dynamat extreme and Second Skin are butyl so there is no smell and they are lighter/thinner

Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

i thought of making it using basic products but i rather a neat install. dynamat seems right. the thing is i see guys on here literally lining all over their cars and unless everyone is spending a grand on the stuff, there must be something i'm missing.

eggyhustles

The more you deaden..the better..

but you don't need to deaden the whole car. front doors/trunk/rear deck should work well for the average person.

I hate cars

I've deadened the doors and that's about it.

It rattled like crazy in the back with no dynamat until I did the bandpass box with it ported through the armrest. Absolutely no rattles inside the car now at any volume.

IMO, you can put all the dynamat you want but if you're pushing enough power you'll always be fighting rattles in the rear with the subs in the trunk.

CSWBiggs

what's dynamat?

-Jason

Day

Sorry guys, Im relatively new to this TL addiction. What is this bandpass ported through the rear armrest magic? My trunk rattles like crazy, already thinking of biting the dynamat or second skin bullet. Thanks in advance

CSWBiggs

browse my thread and you'll see the miracle box..

-Jason

xxx_busa

I just pick-up 2 boxes from these jokers, the price is more than fair. 140.00 a box

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...++-+10455.html

or

http://www.secondskinaudio.com/vibra...lifier-pro.php

I hate cars

Jason- Still by far the best miracle box. Any time you need a little extra money, I'll buy one..... or two. People look at mine like WTF is that? Going to try and hide it somehow before the all Cali meet.

Trew

iTrader: (1)

Pics, dammit!

I hate cars

Of mine? Wait, I remember you asking now. I have them on the camera, I'll try and download today. It's ugly but maybe V2 will be prettier and fit better.

Day

How on earth did you come up with that box? I want one!

illstrategy

I just bought 100 square feet of "FatMat". Did the fromt passanger door and there is definitely a difference. Plan on doing the rest of the car when i get a chance.

Question...

Any tips on where exactly in the trunk or rear deck this stuff is needed to stop all the rattles?

I hate cars

You should hear his in person! Amazing. It will play any type of music perfectly. It's an SQ setup that happens to hit over 140db with no rattles and no dynamat. The best of all worlds.

Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

Well....my box design is similar to Jason's, but should work a little better (no shit talking intended). The problem for me is I always come up with a plan, but don't have any evidence that it will work. So, rattles cannot really be foreseen. With the results I've had in the past in a vehicle that was absolutely dead to acoustics, the box made stories. So, taking that concept and tinkering out the details to fit in the TL (with the TL being extremely acoustically ambient with just the factory subwoofer) it should basically take your breath out of your lungs when sitting in the car.

But......I had no way of testing this theory until I'm close to $1200 in finishing the project. I'm very close - besides building an amplifier display, which I think I'll just hold off on. I can hide the lows amp for now rather than display it, and just stick with stock highs until I conjure up some more discretionary funds.

Anyway, moral of the post is simple: I'm dumping way more into this project that I intended on hardware and it just seems like everyone doing their whole trunks and doors must have some kind of hook up. Help me out!

PhillyxMartin

iTrader: (2)

I used something called fatmat works great and cheap

Day

Absolutely no dynamat? Are you sure? I cant even decide what to do for my rattles yet

eggyhustles

bandpass is very tricky..if done wrong it'll sound like crap..

I hate cars

Better in what way? I'm somewhat new to this but I can't imagine anything being better in every category. I mean I'm sure there's better SQ and better SPL but it's the combo of the two, not to mention no rattles by design. I've personally never heard anything that will play every type of music with authority and accuracy but maybe that's my inexperience.

CSWBiggs

how is yours going to work better...you're working against alot when you say that....please enlighten me...

-Jason

CSWBiggs

I'll be pulling mine out sometime in the next couple of days...i have to make my final one...with all the aesthetics that I require....it's going to be the exact same design...just with my acrylic back...painted interior...lights..etc etc...do you want this one?

-Jason

I hate cars

Definately!

CSWBiggs

matt...surprise for you on my build thread...

-jason

Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

Lol, i knew that comment would stir shit up.
I didn't say better in every way; i said should be a little better.
What I mean is it should move more air - directed and faster - into the cab, resulting in extremely deep bass.
I stress the words should be better because I have no idea until I'm done with the build and have everything working.

I'm not using w7s or jl amps. From what I understand, w6s actually move more air somehow but I didn't go into the details on whatever forum I read that on. I think w7s are great but overrated and require too much power. But if you have the money for them, why not?

I've been watching your build for a while and you have my respect. I just have a few variations that I'm trying and hoping work out. Are you having trouble with getting in and out of the trunk with the box or does it clear without problems? I ran into that problem and had to modify my ideas a bit.

Your design is almost identical in theory to mine but mine will have sort of an additional box attached. Yours does confuse me in a way, but after looking at the new pics in your build thread, i sort of have an understanding: Subs face and fire at trunk lid - magnets enclosed but with a port on the back wall - port looks boxed? - and then through the skipass.
Correct me if that interpretation is wrong.

I'm doing almost just that, but the subs are attached through the back wall - firing towards the trunk lid, but in an enclosed space, a box in itself - with a square port 1 3/4" away from the rear lexan and going towards the cab - with another ported square attached to the first port.
See what I mean by difficult to explain yet? I'll be back in a few minutes with a sketch.

Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

that was a lot harder than i thought. i should have studied the 3d section more in 'art literature' when i had the chance. anyway, here's the general idea:



it's hard as hell to explain everything but for the most part, the picture makes sense. i couldn't draw subs inside of the model but basically my assembly process is:
Place 'port b' inside trunk.
Place the large enclosure inside trunk.
Reach in through backseat and attach 'port b' to 'port a'.
Line up with ski-pass and position.
With lexan 'frontwall' unattached, mount subs to 'backwall'.
Mount lexan 'frontwall'.

Like I've been saying, .....I hope this all works.
My theory behind the design is the subs will fire at the lexan, which is bulletproof (with some calibers) and near bulletproof (with most calibers), anyway- then sort of combust through the port, and move fast with reflection from the lexan....all into the acoustically charged cab. Resulting in godawfully deep and loud bass.

Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

Well I have no way of testing against rattles until the project is done. I expect a shitload of rattles. I can't see how the cab could be filled with bass and not have some rattles. Unless you dynamat every inch of the car?

My previous setup I've mentioned a few posts above (in the acoustically challenged vehicle) played any music you could through at it very well. Rap was easy of course. Classical music sounded perfect if there was a bass note. It even responded to a Derks Bentley song with clean fast bass. Rock music never really sounded great, other than a few Rob Zombie tracks.

Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

THANK YOU! 36 foot for $140 is perfect.

I hate cars

So is it a bandpass?

CSW will explain I'm sure..... From the driver's seat, you can turn around and see the front of the W6s through the ski pass. It's got the sealed portion separate from the ported portion in the sense that they bolt together separately.

I'm sure yours sounded good but when I demo's CSWs, we listened to rap, metal, and I even brought a country CD with some fast hard hitting bass. There just wasn't anything this thing wouldn't play well. There are very few things I'm fully convinced of but I've been bugging this guy for 6 months for a reason. Even with my lack of experience I can pick out what I don't like in a system and this is the only one I can't pick apart.

As for rattles, there truly are none. Even with my ghetto setup, I get a rattle near the center console down by my feet from the bass but that's only at insane volumes.

CSWBiggs

your diagrams leave me perplexed....check the last section of my build thread for clarification...but lookin at your diagram...you simply have just the port from the inside of the enclosure firing into the cabin...because if so...you're in for a world of hurt...a port by itself doesn't generate sound...you need to read into how a ported enclosure works...seriously...

From JL Audio's Site...

The coupling of a port or duct to the air inside the enclosure allows the subwoofer system to take advantage of the work being done by the rear of the woofer cone to reinforce the low-frequency response. The resonant characteristics of the column of air in a port, when installed in a given box, are adjusted by altering its resistance to motion, which is accomplished by changing the dimensions of the port. In some designs, instead of a port, a speaker cone with no motor assembly or a flat diaphragm is used to achieve the same effect. This is known as a passive radiator. The resonance of a passive radiator system can be adjusted by altering the radiator's surface area, mass and compliance (stiffness of suspension.)

In a ported enclosure, there is a delicate relationship between the volume of air in the box, the resonant effect of the port, and the parameters of the speaker being used. When these three factors are correctly integrated, the rear output wave of the speaker is delayed just enough so that when it comes out of the port, it is in relative phase with the wave being produced by the front of the speaker. The result is constructive output from the port limited to a desired low- frequency range.
This low-frequency reinforcement is one of the big advantages of a well-designed ported system. Using the work of the rear of the cone in a constructive manner means that a gain in efficiency of about 3dB over a broad band in the sub-bass range can be achieved as compared to a sealed enclosure using the same woofer. The other big advantage is that the interaction of the port, the enclosure and the speaker's resonant characteristics also reduces cone motion and, therefore, distortion at higher volume levels in the frequency range controlled by the port. The down side is that at frequencies below the tuning of the port, the speaker gradually begins to act as if it were not enclosed at all (more on this later.)

The increased output combined with reduced distortion in the "meat" of the bass range (35-60Hz) is a big reason why many home speakers and high-power sound-reinforcement systems use ported enclosures for low-frequency reproduction. Many high-output studio monitors also use ported enclosuresfor the same reasons.

The rules governing the behavior and proper design of ported speaker systems are considerably more complex than those for sealed enclosures. For this reason, it is a good practice to follow the advice of the speaker manufacturer or an experienced enclosure designer when it comes to designing a ported system. It is very easy to screw up a ported box if you just guess at the size and length of the port or the tuning frequency for the box. Not only will a poorly designed box sound bad, but it can easily damage the speaker if it is played hard.

end JL Audio quote...

and second...i would not run a port into any chamber that you can see through an acrylic window...simple logic should tell you that dust will be sucked into your enclosure and make it look like shit...unless you plan on cleaning it on a daily basis...which...would be a huge waste of time...not to mention when you have to clean it those dust particles will scratch that acrylic...

again...please help me if i'm missing something...or is what i wrote above correct....

-Jason

I hate cars

It may end up being similar to mine when I had the subs facing the rear seat with the armrest open. As I was told it created sort of a bandpass effect only it wasn't tuned. I had to run a ton of power to get any appreciable bass and it never sounded quite right.

Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

I'm not quoting both of you but I'll try to answer by clarification. The diagram you see is what you would see if you opened the trunk and looked in. The w6 faces would be facing you. The magnets would be routed through the speaker holes, and out of the box - basically an inverted setup, but passed through and held by the inside of the rear wall.

I'm not sure how you got to the conclusion of what you think I think a port is - if I said something about it, please point it out to me. I'm well aware that a port isn't going to 'generate' sound. It can tune or deepen sound that you've already created - with deepening being my goal. The priority here is that it will channel clean deep bass into the cabin.

As I've mentioned earlier, I've used a similar design to this and had unbelievable results, and with cheap shit speakers and a "1600 watt" amp - I was young. When I learned more about quality components, I tried a new amp and new subs and the sound was so deep I can't possibly describe it. My only fear with the current design is that the port will be too long and have an echoing effect.

I think that answers what you guys asked.

Oh, I didn't think of dust at all. Jason has a very valid and disturbing point, one that I am pretty much screwed on. I didn't want to have just a giant sealed and carpeted box taking up my trunk, so one of the reasons I opted to use lexan was to create the illusion that space isn't being so taken up. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about that now. Possibly a shop vac with a very long extension and a very soft bristle could help.

I hate cars

So it's a halfass bandpass???

Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

Okay I think my diagram confused you guys. Again, 3D drawing isn't my thing but a bit of elaboration may help.

Port b is a boxed port that fits between the rear seats - where the center console tucks in when you have it up. Port B can be separated from that whole enclosure - a few inches from the backwall. Port A is inside the enclosure and routes out the backwall about 4 inches - (this is where Port B attaches).
Right above this sentence, the red box is the lexan.


I don't know how much more I can explain with words. I'll take pictures when I start working on the project again. At that time, I'll have the speakers in so it will make more sense.

Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

Bandpass? I'm not familiar with all the terms but from what I know, the word bandpass is used to describe a box made out of 1/2" or less thick drywall with a cheap plexiglass front window. And supposedly deepens bass with several 3" round by 2" deep plastic 'ports'.

Is that understanding correct?

If so, then you would take the word 'halfass' completely out of describing my design. I'm using 3/4" thick mdf, and then fiberglassing. I'm using 1/2" thick Lexan, NOT plexiglass. And my port will actually do it's job rather than put holes in my enclosure.

Rob RiL

iTrader: (5)

ahhh, clarification!

Here's a pic of the old enclosure I used in my truck.



The subs could be dropped in or inverted (mounted on top but with the faces facing inside. The same sound was achieved either way.

The new box is just like that one but the subs WILL be inverted and that port you see will continue outwards (or up in that picture) and into the skipass.

Jason, after looking at your pics for a while and putting together the pieces, I think I understand what you're getting at, but not the concept itself. Your magnets are enclosed in their own box - but then the sub faces are inside of another box that is a bit larger and ported?

If so, then my design is that, but the subs are inverted, and where your port stops, mind continues into where your 'magnet' holding box is. And then I don't have the other box, just a port.

I hope I'm not lost of your design anymore because my head is starting to hurt.

CSWBiggs

rob...

u need to enclose the rear of those drivers in an appropriate sized enclosure...tuned to match the front ported chamber...all tuned around the length of your port...

in your truck u built a ported enclosure...the front waves from the subwoofer drvers were able to acousticaly couple with the rear waves generated by port...which is totally different than the abortion you have drawn here...what u have here is a disaster...if u look you're CREATING A HALF ASS BANDPASS WITHOUT THE REAR SEALED PORTION OF THE ENCLOSURE...no bueno my friend...a 4th order bandpass bandpass consists of 2 seperate enclosures...a sealed enclosure firing into a ported enclosure...all tuned to match the characteristics or (t/S parameter) of the drivers and your desired freuency response curve...

here are some comparisons ive prepared for you



Blue - my bandpass enclosure
Yellow - sealed enclosure of the same size
Green - ported enclosure of the same sized tuned to 30 hz

analysis

bandpass...38-95 hz i gain more than 7dB over the two drivers sealed utilizing over a quarter of the power..and effectively filtering out all mechanical as well as all harmonics above 100 hz..using the same external dimensions as the other two enclosures

ported...2.2 dB gain at 52.9 hz required 75% of the power as the sealed to get the appropriate output..does not filter any mechanical noise or harmonics...cannot be directly coupled with the interior of the vehicle without generating any deviation in response curve

sealed...smooth flat response curve...simple...basic...requires more power...again...no filtering of mechanical noises or harmonics...cannot be directly coupled with interior of the vehicle without generating any deviation in response curve

send me what drivers u plan on using and i'd be more than glad to help you..

-Jason

Tripnbeats

efficiency is the name of the game. nice one J

MattyGookes

2 bulk kits shoud do you good for doors deck and trunk.