DST Issue Service News Article from HONDA
03-13-2007, 04:56 PM
#42
Instructor
Originally Posted by brunchboy
Whatever it takes them to do it, I'd certainly appreciate some public statement that they are working on it, and an estimate of when it will be available.
I also would like to know if Acura is NOT planning to fix this, since not enough people care about this. THis would be a shame, on such a hi-tech car.
03-13-2007, 05:19 PM
#43
Originally Posted by pilozm
I agree. I just want to know if they're working on it and when I should expect a patch/fix tol be available.
I also would like to know if Acura is NOT planning to fix this, since not enough people care about this. THis would be a shame, on such a hi-tech car.
I also would like to know if Acura is NOT planning to fix this, since not enough people care about this. THis would be a shame, on such a hi-tech car.
I reached my service writer at the dealer this afternoon. As patch is being worked on. Not sure when it will be ready.
03-13-2007, 06:06 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by brunchboy
These analogies to cell phones are misleading. Cell phone signals are short range, and come from local towers, so the transmitter and receiver are in the same time zone. The cell network therefore tells your phone the local time, and the phone doesn't need to know anything about time zones.
GPS is fundamentally different. The constellation of GPS satellites (there are about a dozen) are each extremely accurate clocks which are continually broadcasting a time signal as they orbit the earth. Since they pass over the entire planet, this time signal is not local, and must share a standard global time reference, known as Coordinated Universal Time. The GPS receiver unit picks up the signals from all visible satellites, and by solving a bunch of simultaneous equations is able to deduce the precise current time, as well as the distance to each satellite, given how long it takes the radio signal to reach it travelling at the speed of light. That's how it figures out where you are. (Also notice that the TL navigation system is a pure receiver; the GPS satellites don't know where any receivers are, they just keep on telling the world what time they think it is. A common misconception is that GPS receiver units somehow communicate back to the satellites.)
Of course, the GPS notion of the current time is only valid for the strip of the globe that includes the Greenwich Naval Observatory in London (and only when British Summer Time is not in effect). All calculations to display the current local time have to be made by the software in the navigation system, based on its knowledge of your current location, and tables of rules about where the time zones boundaries occur geographically, and when in the calendar changes like Daylight Saving Time adjustments occur.
Those tables became out of date this year because of a law passed in 2005, and need to be updated for the system to be correct. We are looking for Acura or Alpine to produce updated tables and provide us a mechanism for getting them installed in our cars.
(As an aside, even phones can need an update if, like my Palm Treo, they have a calendaring system that needs to be accurate even as you travel to different time zones. Palm released an update months ago so I was able to install it before it was needed. Acura, please catch up soon!)
GPS is fundamentally different. The constellation of GPS satellites (there are about a dozen) are each extremely accurate clocks which are continually broadcasting a time signal as they orbit the earth. Since they pass over the entire planet, this time signal is not local, and must share a standard global time reference, known as Coordinated Universal Time. The GPS receiver unit picks up the signals from all visible satellites, and by solving a bunch of simultaneous equations is able to deduce the precise current time, as well as the distance to each satellite, given how long it takes the radio signal to reach it travelling at the speed of light. That's how it figures out where you are. (Also notice that the TL navigation system is a pure receiver; the GPS satellites don't know where any receivers are, they just keep on telling the world what time they think it is. A common misconception is that GPS receiver units somehow communicate back to the satellites.)
Of course, the GPS notion of the current time is only valid for the strip of the globe that includes the Greenwich Naval Observatory in London (and only when British Summer Time is not in effect). All calculations to display the current local time have to be made by the software in the navigation system, based on its knowledge of your current location, and tables of rules about where the time zones boundaries occur geographically, and when in the calendar changes like Daylight Saving Time adjustments occur.
Those tables became out of date this year because of a law passed in 2005, and need to be updated for the system to be correct. We are looking for Acura or Alpine to produce updated tables and provide us a mechanism for getting them installed in our cars.
(As an aside, even phones can need an update if, like my Palm Treo, they have a calendaring system that needs to be accurate even as you travel to different time zones. Palm released an update months ago so I was able to install it before it was needed. Acura, please catch up soon!)
I'm just surprised that the 2007 models (like my TL) didn't get the software change. Maybe a d/l feature on future models using OnStar or something else would help. Of course, there could be security issues.
03-13-2007, 06:11 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by jupitersolo
I reached my service writer at the dealer this afternoon. As patch is being worked on. Not sure when it will be ready.
03-13-2007, 06:14 PM
#46
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From what I've seen and read about the Alpine system, I suspect that the only way for them to fix this would be to give users a new Nav DVD with updated software. I doubt that the hardware itself is much more than an application-specific motherboard with integrated GPS receiver section -- all of the algorithms that tell the system about things like time zones and DST are in the system software that's loaded from the DVD and not on a flashable EEPROM in the nav box.
If this is true, then good luck getting Honda to give free DVDs to everyone with a nav system. I wouldn't be surprised if they WERE aware of the situation earlier, realized what the fix was going to cost them because of their system architecture, and decided to play dumb and hope it would mostly blow over. I guess we'll see...
If this is true, then good luck getting Honda to give free DVDs to everyone with a nav system. I wouldn't be surprised if they WERE aware of the situation earlier, realized what the fix was going to cost them because of their system architecture, and decided to play dumb and hope it would mostly blow over. I guess we'll see...
03-13-2007, 08:48 PM
#47
^^^ They probably won't give us a new Navi DVD. The dealer will have one with just the patch on it and load it themselves. Just to be safe, I won't buy the new Nav DVD until after the patch comes out.
03-13-2007, 09:08 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by dampfnudel
On Sunday morning, my cell phone showed the correct time, so I though just like my cell phone, my TL would receive the correct time when I started her up. I was a little disappointed that I had to manually fix it myself. I didn't realize that the time was generated by the vehicle internally, instead of receiving a time update signal via the GPS. It's not that bad, but it's something that should have been addressed by Acura.
A Cell Phone and you TL receive the time infomation in completely different ways.
You cell phone receives in time information from a local Cell tower. Each cell tower is set to it's local time. Therefore you cell phone is set to local time.
Your TL (and EVERY OTHER GPS System) receives it time from the GPS satelllites in orbit around the earth. EVERY GPS recieve the EXACT SAME TIME. GPS time is sent out as UTC time. The receiver/software then adjust the clock to local time based upon a set of rules. The rules are based on your current location (time zone) and current date (DST on or off). These rules are hard coded and can only be changed with a software patch.
The problem is how do implement a patch in a computer that has no easy upgrade path? Unlike our computers, our TL's are not connected to Internet and can not download a patch automatically.
The software (at least partially) is loaded directly off the Navigation DVD. To patch the software would require issuing EVERYONE new Navigation DVDs. Could Acura/Honda do this. Yes. Is the cost worth it, that is up to Acura/Honda.
(Note: Another option would be to issue a patch cd without the Navigation infomration. However, that would require a little trickery to load and would disappear if the software was every reloaded from the original DVD. This certainly would not be a fix to hand over to the end user.)
03-13-2007, 10:01 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by jupitersolo
^^^ They probably won't give us a new Navi DVD. The dealer will have one with just the patch on it and load it themselves. Just to be safe, I won't buy the new Nav DVD until after the patch comes out.
04-01-2007, 09:18 PM
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I called recently and the response I got was that it was planned for this to be a manual thing from this point on.
I really hope they fix this. If the car is supposed to adjust the time and I paid for it then I want it to work.
It'll be little things like this that will drive me nuts.
I can hear my friend now... Lexus isn't Toyota but Acura is Honda. UGH!
I really hope they fix this. If the car is supposed to adjust the time and I paid for it then I want it to work.
It'll be little things like this that will drive me nuts.
I can hear my friend now... Lexus isn't Toyota but Acura is Honda. UGH!
04-01-2007, 10:46 PM
#52
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My '07 TL-S w/navi says you have to take it into the dealer to update/change. Got the impression you could update yourself w/non-navi but need a dealer to change navi. I thought if I waited to 'regular' pre-time changes, it would change on its own, altough late, but maybe not.
04-01-2007, 10:57 PM
#53
Ev an' Tec
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FYI...
Today (Sunday 4-1-2007) was the day DST would have started based on the OLD rules.
I'd mistakenly thought it would have been 3-25, going by the 'last weekend in March' rule (though I guess that would have really been today). So sometime last week, I figured that the old-rule and new-rule were in sync again, so I set my car to go back to Auto-DST. Nothing happened then.
Tonight, I just went into the car (for the 1st time today), and the clock blipped forward from 1150pm to 1250am. (It said 1150, then a few seconds later it showed 1250). So I realized the auto-DST kicked in, thinking today was the day to push the clock forward and hour.
I went to the setup screen 4, selected TimeZone etc, and pressed the (-) key next to the hour button. Calendar shows it's still 4-1 and clock shows it's 1152. OK now.
Today (Sunday 4-1-2007) was the day DST would have started based on the OLD rules.
I'd mistakenly thought it would have been 3-25, going by the 'last weekend in March' rule (though I guess that would have really been today). So sometime last week, I figured that the old-rule and new-rule were in sync again, so I set my car to go back to Auto-DST. Nothing happened then.
Tonight, I just went into the car (for the 1st time today), and the clock blipped forward from 1150pm to 1250am. (It said 1150, then a few seconds later it showed 1250). So I realized the auto-DST kicked in, thinking today was the day to push the clock forward and hour.
I went to the setup screen 4, selected TimeZone etc, and pressed the (-) key next to the hour button. Calendar shows it's still 4-1 and clock shows it's 1152. OK now.
04-02-2007, 08:30 AM
#54
Keep Right Except to Pass
Originally Posted by evantec
FYI...
Today (Sunday 4-1-2007) was the day DST would have started based on the OLD rules.
I'd mistakenly thought it would have been 3-25, going by the 'last weekend in March' rule (though I guess that would have really been today). So sometime last week, I figured that the old-rule and new-rule were in sync again, so I set my car to go back to Auto-DST. Nothing happened then.
Today (Sunday 4-1-2007) was the day DST would have started based on the OLD rules.
I'd mistakenly thought it would have been 3-25, going by the 'last weekend in March' rule (though I guess that would have really been today). So sometime last week, I figured that the old-rule and new-rule were in sync again, so I set my car to go back to Auto-DST. Nothing happened then.
04-02-2007, 06:14 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by dswalins
I called recently and the response I got was that it was planned for this to be a manual thing from this point on.
I really hope they fix this. If the car is supposed to adjust the time and I paid for it then I want it to work.
It'll be little things like this that will drive me nuts.
I can hear my friend now... Lexus isn't Toyota but Acura is Honda. UGH!
I really hope they fix this. If the car is supposed to adjust the time and I paid for it then I want it to work.
It'll be little things like this that will drive me nuts.
I can hear my friend now... Lexus isn't Toyota but Acura is Honda. UGH!
I can't believe Honda/Acura is going to just switch to manual mode as a permanent fix for DST when other car makers have been able to patch their systems.
04-02-2007, 10:41 PM
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Since the Navi units get the time from the satellites, wouldn't it make sense to re-program the satellites and then turn DST off on the Navi unit? That way it would always be correct since the Satellite knows where you are, what time zone you're in, and if that zone recognizes DST.
IMO. Its about as useful as a visit from 
our friend Mr. Hanky...the Christmas Poo.
04-03-2007, 12:20 AM
#58
~Da Nocturnal Cheetah~
Originally Posted by jzacuto
Since the Navi units get the time from the satellites, wouldn't it make sense to re-program the satellites and then turn DST off on the Navi unit? That way it would always be correct since the Satellite knows where you are, what time zone you're in, and if that zone recognizes DST.
04-03-2007, 08:59 AM
#59
Keep Right Except to Pass
Originally Posted by jzacuto
Since the Navi units get the time from the satellites, wouldn't it make sense to re-program the satellites and then turn DST off on the Navi unit? That way it would always be correct since the Satellite knows where you are, what time zone you're in, and if that zone recognizes DST.
I have to say, all the complaining on this forum makes me wonder what all these posters do with the clocks and watches in their homes, since it's obviously a huge burden to do this. (Changing the TL clock manually is certainly easier than changing many home clocks that require you to turn a knob, or than changing some alarm clocks that only let you advance the time forwards such that in the fall you have to go around for 23 hours....)
04-03-2007, 09:26 AM
#60
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Originally Posted by jzacuto
Since the Navi units get the time from the satellites, wouldn't it make sense to re-program the satellites and then turn DST off on the Navi unit? That way it would always be correct since the Satellite knows where you are, what time zone you're in, and if that zone recognizes DST.
This has been talked about an previous DST threads before this time change even happened (weeks ago). I don't know why were are rehashing all these same topics in yet another thread. The mods have been closing all these, but I'm not sure why this one continues to run
04-03-2007, 09:45 AM
#61
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Originally Posted by 1995hoo
I have to say, all the complaining on this forum makes me wonder what all these posters do with the clocks and watches in their homes, since it's obviously a huge burden to do this. (Changing the TL clock manually is certainly easier than changing many home clocks that require you to turn a knob, or than changing some alarm clocks that only let you advance the time forwards such that in the fall you have to go around for 23 hours....)
04-03-2007, 09:57 AM
#62
Keep Right Except to Pass
Originally Posted by Knockz
Same thing I was thinking. Check post 14. This is the first car I've ever owned that did any sort of DST time change. Every other car I did myself manually and it wasn't a big deal for me.
As I type this sentence, the current date is 13 Germinal CCXXV (Tridi, Décade 2) and the current time is 04:55:70 (it is 10:56 AM EDT). Note the "70 seconds" in that last sentence. It could be 04:75:90 under this clock. Now imagine trying to graft DST onto all of this! (I have no idea whether the conversion software I used accounts for DST. I rather doubt it.)
Here's a clock. The inner band shows the French hours and the outer band shows the traditional hours. I'd love to have one of these for my office as a conversation piece, but I don't want to spend $10,000 at an antique store!
Bottom line: Fixing the TL's clock is EASY compared to some of the alternatives!
04-03-2007, 10:03 AM
#63
Keep Right Except to Pass
Originally Posted by 1995hoo
As I type this sentence, the current date is 13 Germinal CCXXV (Tridi, Décade 2)....
04-03-2007, 12:14 PM
#64
Burning Brakes
The new DVD version 4.56 has the fix for DST. I ordered the new version earlier this week.
https://store.alpine-usa.com/Acuradv.../naviorder.php
10. The navi is not switching Daylight Savings Time correctly anymore (in March/November), or the navi is still switching the time using the old April/October daylight savings schedule. What's wrong?
The daylight Savings schedule is stored in the navi. A new software version can be loaded by your dealer to change the navi's old Daylight Savings Time schedule to the new March/November schedule. With the new version, make sure to set your "Auto Daylight" setting to "ON" in the Setup "Clock Adjustment" screen. Note: DVD versions 4.56 or later already include the new daylight savings schedule.
https://store.alpine-usa.com/Acuradv.../naviorder.php
10. The navi is not switching Daylight Savings Time correctly anymore (in March/November), or the navi is still switching the time using the old April/October daylight savings schedule. What's wrong?
The daylight Savings schedule is stored in the navi. A new software version can be loaded by your dealer to change the navi's old Daylight Savings Time schedule to the new March/November schedule. With the new version, make sure to set your "Auto Daylight" setting to "ON" in the Setup "Clock Adjustment" screen. Note: DVD versions 4.56 or later already include the new daylight savings schedule.
04-03-2007, 01:18 PM
#66
Keep Right Except to Pass
Originally Posted by dj5
The new DVD version 4.56 has the fix for DST. I ordered the new version earlier this week.
https://store.alpine-usa.com/Acuradv.../naviorder.php
10. The navi is not switching Daylight Savings Time correctly anymore (in March/November), or the navi is still switching the time using the old April/October daylight savings schedule. What's wrong?
The daylight Savings schedule is stored in the navi. A new software version can be loaded by your dealer to change the navi's old Daylight Savings Time schedule to the new March/November schedule. With the new version, make sure to set your "Auto Daylight" setting to "ON" in the Setup "Clock Adjustment" screen. Note: DVD versions 4.56 or later already include the new daylight savings schedule.
https://store.alpine-usa.com/Acuradv.../naviorder.php
10. The navi is not switching Daylight Savings Time correctly anymore (in March/November), or the navi is still switching the time using the old April/October daylight savings schedule. What's wrong?
The daylight Savings schedule is stored in the navi. A new software version can be loaded by your dealer to change the navi's old Daylight Savings Time schedule to the new March/November schedule. With the new version, make sure to set your "Auto Daylight" setting to "ON" in the Setup "Clock Adjustment" screen. Note: DVD versions 4.56 or later already include the new daylight savings schedule.
If anyone spends $185 based solely on the DST issue, I think they're nuts. I may upgrade the DVD due to substantially improved coverage in some places I travel to, but just for the DST thing would be dumb, and from their site it appears that the orange DVD does not include a DST fix.
04-03-2007, 03:41 PM
#67
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I just spoke to my dealer today. "A patch is being developed" was all I got. No timing, no implementation instructions, nada.
This is controlled by software. It is my understanding that the DVD contains the software based on threads I have read about hacking the DVD to get it to skip the splash screen (text warning you...). So I'm expecting them to put it on the next version of the DVD and ask us to pay for it. BAD idea.
This is controlled by software. It is my understanding that the DVD contains the software based on threads I have read about hacking the DVD to get it to skip the splash screen (text warning you...). So I'm expecting them to put it on the next version of the DVD and ask us to pay for it. BAD idea.
04-14-2007, 10:21 AM
#69
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Originally Posted by Rabney
I just spoke to my dealer today. "A patch is being developed" was all I got. No timing, no implementation instructions, nada.
This is controlled by software. It is my understanding that the DVD contains the software based on threads I have read about hacking the DVD to get it to skip the splash screen (text warning you...). So I'm expecting them to put it on the next version of the DVD and ask us to pay for it. BAD idea.
This is controlled by software. It is my understanding that the DVD contains the software based on threads I have read about hacking the DVD to get it to skip the splash screen (text warning you...). So I'm expecting them to put it on the next version of the DVD and ask us to pay for it. BAD idea.
Therefore, this is an issue that would fall under a warranty issue. i.e., the car and systems are not behaving as designed. Should Acura want people to pay for the DVD upgrade to fix the problem, then you should be able to claim that this is a warranty repair item.
Now the real problem comes for all of us with the DVD nag fix....someone will have to post another nag removal for the new disc!
04-14-2007, 12:21 PM
#70
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Originally Posted by msingh
...After all, if I read the manual (which I did the other day) for my 2006, it says quite clearly that the clock with "automatically adjust for timezone changes". Well, it doesn't as we all know given the DST changes.
)? There's probably something in there that lets them off the hook for this.
04-22-2007, 06:48 AM
#71
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2007 DST Fixed in latest 4.56 DVD (White Disk)
I am not sure if this is the Honda/Acura's patch they are working on to resolve the DST issue among other issue listed in the thread below.
https://acurazine.com/forums/religion-politics-18/wheres-cheney-156464/
No DVD updates to the earlier than 2007 model year TLs.
https://acurazine.com/forums/religion-politics-18/wheres-cheney-156464/
No DVD updates to the earlier than 2007 model year TLs.
10-07-2007, 04:25 PM
#73
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Patch in the works?
I had to call the 800 customer service for another problem and asked about the DST issue. The cc rep said they are working on a fix and it would be free. Really? You can be sure I wrote down her name and the date we spoke. No info on when it should be available. She said Alpine was including other bug fixes too.
10-10-2007, 08:57 AM
#75
Fightin' Texas Aggie
Originally Posted by Rabney
Customer Care and my dealer both told me today that the new Navi DVD would be available November 4, barring surprise delays.
There is a cost for the DVD.
There is a cost for the DVD.
10-11-2007, 09:12 AM
#76
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Originally Posted by AMIC
So are they now saying that the fix is incorporated into the new DVD release and that we will have to pay the $200 to get it?
Apparently, yes. I avoided the $ as Acura is apeasing me on another service issue and wanted to give that to me for free.
10-11-2007, 03:23 PM
#77
Fightin' Texas Aggie
Originally Posted by Rabney
Apparently, yes. I avoided the $ as Acura is apeasing me on another service issue and wanted to give that to me for free.
10-19-2007, 08:12 PM
#78
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When I talked to Acura Customer Service last summer, I was told there would be a patch coming out this fall to correct the DST issue. I went by the dealer today and they had no patch or knowledge of one. They checked with California and were told that a patch WAS coming -- BUT -- it does not fix the DST issue, it just turns off the feature. According to them (and this was the Service Manager talking to the technical guys, not just a phone rep), Acura isn't rushing to change the DST logic. They are concerned that Congress will change the DST dates again which would force further changes & associated cost. I asked what was happening on the 2008 TL's and was told they, likewise, to not have a "fixed" DST and just have the function turned off.
If anyone with a 2008 has had different experience, or if someone gets an update that truly fixes the problem, I'l love to know. But, after Nov 2, you won't know if an update truly works until next spring.
If anyone with a 2008 has had different experience, or if someone gets an update that truly fixes the problem, I'l love to know. But, after Nov 2, you won't know if an update truly works until next spring.
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