vp55

iTrader: (6)

Is a sound processor neccesary when upgrading your sound system?

I've searched but didn't really see if this is required or just an option to get full control of your system? I don't want to install this setup and find it sounds like crap due to not having a processor, but I really don't want to spend $500+ on a processor either lol.

Here's the setup I plan on installing:

ID CTX 6.5" front speakers
Polk Audio MM 10" Shallow sub in a .65 box
MB Quart Q4. 150 amp

Thanks for all your help thus far guys!

Nick337

iTrader: (2)

A sound processor is always a plus!!. Not required, but if you have the money why not.

geekybiker

You practically have what I have. You don't need a processor, but you'll need something to convert from balanced to unbalance with your amp if hooking up pre amp. You'll need two LOC if doing it post. You're going to have to buy *something* might as well hunt down a used 3sixty.2. It'll work, solve the noise issue you'll have otherwise and give you processing. $200-$225ish. You can go cheaper. As cheap as $10 if you really want. Buy a ground loop isolator off amazon and hook up pre-amp. It'll kill the noise to a reasonable level and you'll be set for a processor later. Its not the right way to do it as far as I'm concerned, but I did it for a week or two as a band-aid and it did work.

Oh, and when you install the comps, mount the crossovers in the trunk and run the wire for the speakers from there. You'll thank me later when you want to try active and don't have to pull apart your interior again.

vp55

iTrader: (6)

First off, thanks for your help.

Where can I track down a used RF 3sixty, I checked craigslist and ebay but came up with nothing. You mentioned something about sound, do you mean I will get some type of static or something without a processor?

Also, I am most likely getting it installed at a shop so is there anything I should have the installer do or tell him so that I have everything setup properly the first time since I'm pretty anal lol.

geekybiker

Try diyma Just put a WTB thread up in the classifieds section. Chances are you'll find one quick.

You'll have alt whine and ignition ticking without *something* It doesn't have to be a full on processor, but its the best option really. The trouble is the TL has balanced audio pre-amp. Most amps, including the q4.150 are unbalanced. You need something to convert that signal. 2nd option is using the post-amp signal, but you still need to buy something and it has its own set of issues.

Tell the installer you want the crossovers in the trunk with your amp so you can convert to active later if you choose. Tell them to pull signal pre-amp (Its 900mv rms) set your gains for volume 35. Make sure you use twisted pair RCA cables. probably still work otherwise (I think trunk monkey did it like that) but balanced runs should be twisted. If a shop was doing my install, I'd make them check all my gains with a scope and then use a real time spectrum analyzer to EQ the 3sixy.2 flat. They should have the tools to do that. I wish I had the tools to do it for my system, but its another $200 in tools that I'd use once or twice. A competent shop should have both.

geekybiker

Oh, and if you get a 3sixty.2, make sure to get the v2 of it, or ask if it had the bluetooth update done. If the answer to both is no, walk away.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

You could also do the Audiocontrol Matrix for around $75. There's a few on DIYMA. depends on what level of audio you want. With that setup, processor might be overkill and kinda..well...useless. Up to you and your budget though. If you got the money and will slowly add and/or upgrade your system...def a processor

vp55

iTrader: (6)

I can't post on DIYMA since I have to have 50 posts or pay $40 for membership lol.

I am so confused, please forgive me...still don't know if this is needed or not...

I would rather not get a processor, however I don't want any type of "noise" or interference with this setup and don't plan on upgrading anything else. I kind of want to have it installed and be done with it, BUT I might as well do it right the first time.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Then just purchase the Audiocontrol matrix and you'll be done. It will boost the pre-amp voltage, remove the noise (for our cars) due to balanced signal. Should be able to search DIYMA, car audio.com, caraudio classifieds.com for the Matrix

When you/they install it, make sure to use pre-amp signal. The wiring diagram is somewhere on these first two pages of threads.

geekybiker

Yup, a matrix will do it too. Depends on what you want to do. The matrix is a line driver that will act as a pre-amp to bring your RCA line-level from .9v upto the full 9v that the q4.150 can handle. The q4.150 works fine with the .9v, but its not a bad thing. The main deal is that it can convert 6 channels from balanced to unbalanced. The 3sixty.2 does that and a whole lot more. Heck, a 3sixty.1 does that and more and can be found for about $100. If you want to get stuff installed now, I'd just leave room for the 3sixty (either one) and pick it up when you can. Use a ground loop isolator as a cheap interim solution.

As far as diyma, try PMing Dzaazter. He sounds like he has one he's pulling out of his car. If you can't post in classified yet, search for you want and PMing people who respond to other WTB threads and/or older adds often works.

If you're just looking an install cheap and be done with it, no future upgrades, the matrix might be the best option.

vp55

iTrader: (6)

Thanks. Looks like I may got with the audiocontrol.

I sent him a PM and see if he has one up for sale anytime soon.

How reliable are these processors used?

So Audiocontrol and RF are pretty much the same in sound quality, but the RF is more future proof and has more features. What do you mean by "cheap install".

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

How reliable? Well...as reliable as electronics can be. You just never know lol. They can be bad new or used though. With a processor, there's really not much that can go wrong by misusing it so it'll likely be okay if it's worked before ya know.

As far as having the same SQ....yes and no. Straight up and out of the box, yes. But that's where the Matrix stops. Processors can keep going with all their fine tuning capabilities so the SQ can GREATLY increase.

geekybiker

Cheap install- I mean getting it done for the lowest cost. The 3sixty will sound better when its tuned. No question there. Its going to do more for you if you want to upgrade down the road. the matrix- well you'll end up selling it if you want to go further eventually.

Its really a question of up front cost vs more cost down the road if you decide you want more. I'm not trying to scare you with "It'll sound like ass if you don't get one" It won't it'll sound fine. I'm just saying if you're the kind of guy who tinkers and wants more later, you'll be better off buying the 3sixty.2 now. If you're content with getting it in and it works, and don't plan on touching it unless something breaks, go matrix.

I hate cars

Don't forget the MS8 especially for a beginner. It's a great processor. It has a pair or mics that go in your ears for tuning. All time alignment, eq, filters, etc are done automatically by the processor.

Bass is always up front. The stage is always wide, high, and out on the hood. It's so good that on a good live recording you can hear where the drums are, guitars, where the singer is and when he moves around on stage. It basically does 90% of what a pro can do in several months in 5 minutes.

It also does true 7.1 with a center and rear channels.

It's worth looking at, there's nothing else on the market that has the auto tuning ability.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Is that how you want the stage IHC? Mine is about mid-windshield height, depth of stage is about at the windshield or maybe slightly before you reach the windshield and on a good recording I can't locate a tweeter. I still need to play with TA a little more but I think I have it pretty close. I was thinking about trying to TA based on subs..instead of my right (passenger) midbass. It shouldn't help though, that frequency wavelength is too long to matter in a car environment. ...welp...guess I just answered my own question on that one.

I hate cars

Honestly, the stage depends on how you like it. If you were competing, having it out on the hood would be preferable. I like it out in front of me because it seems like it gives it more depth. There are still certain sounds from up close and some from far away. I guess this would be considered depth.

You can manipulate it with the MS8, just sit forward or backwards or side to side to change the stage during the calibration.

Some people like it right in front of the driver.

It was weird for me at first with a proper stage. Most of the SQ cars with processors I had been in sounded very nice but it was still weird getting used to it. Once you're used to it you can never go back.

As far as I know, the sub is never TA'd. The farthest speaker besides the sub is the starting point. Sometimes you have to forget hard numbers and just play with the TA to see what kind of changes you get. Now if you're talking about not basing the right mid off of the sub's distance, who knows, it could very well be better the way you're trying it. I've tried to use common sense and even science but in car audio it seems like sometimes you just have to try stuff even if it doesn't make sense.

vp55

iTrader: (6)

Thanks geeky, how do you like your setup since I think I have the same setup minus the processor. Are you happy with it and anything you want to change or add? I am hoping mine sounds much better then stock.

Off-topic-How much dynamat (or an alternate brand) would I need? I plan on picking up the Dynamat Xtreme speaker 10"x10" for the front comps but not sure how much I will need for my trunk/sub etc.

I hate cars

You need to deaden the entire door both the side where the speaker mounts, a little on the skin, and on the back side of the plastic door covers. This will make as much of a difference as upgrading the speakers. On the rest of the car you only have to cover 25-50% except for the trunk.

Again, it depends on what your final setup is going to be. A single sealed 10" on 100w won't require as much deadening as a pair of 15s ported facing the trunk. I would decide on the speakers and subs you plan on using first.

I went overkill, pulling out the interior of the car and vibration dampening everything plus adding some Second Skin Luxury Liner Pro to the floor, roof, and doors. This actually blocks sound where the deadeing kills vibrations. You wouldn't believe just how much sound comes from little things like the upper console. I never really noticed that unwanted sound came from there until I put little strips of deadener on the back of the plastic pieces. Just drving down the road with the system off made a big difference. Another area that will give a huge gain with little effort and expense is the sunroof sliding cover. If mine wasn't shut all the way it would vibrate badly with the subs going. I stuck a strip on the top and I can have it open or closed, no more vibrations.

I think of it this way, we spend $200 to $2,000 to get some nice speakers with good frequency response and low distortion. The first time you start the engine and especially once you start moving you just created a ton of "distortion" and all sorts of unwanted frequencies. IMO, the deadening is at least as important as the rest of the system. My car is extremely quiet going down the freeway now. The only issue is the glass. Now I see why Mercedes used double thick glass in their CL class. With all of the sound deadening and the rest of the car being quiet, the noise getting through the glass is more noticeable and it sounds like you have a window cracked open.

The bare minimum should be the entire door and deck.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

^^^A lot...
reread what IHC wrote above, he knows his shit.

Personally, I haven't delved into processing because I don't WANT to become any more of an audiophile than I already am...my bank account won't allow it.

What are you going to use to power your sub? The MB Quart!??! 3 channel ability I'm guessing, 2 fronts, and bridge for sub? I'm actually eagerly awaiting my Q1500.1 that should arrive tomorrow. My old sub amp kept having the same issue even after repair, decided it was time to pick up a good quality one with remote bass knob. Can't wait...1 ohm of 1500 watts of clean sub bass will make me happy.

vp55

iTrader: (6)

^Thanks IHC. Any type of specific deadner I should go for?

What deadner do you recommend to block out wind/road noise on the TL?

vp55

iTrader: (6)

So, you don't have a processor? How is your sound without it and what is your setup?

Yeah, MB Quart Q4 150 to power the front comps, rear stock speaker and one 10" shallow sub. Amp is huge and heavy!

Front comps ID CTX 6.5" 150w @ 4ohms

Rear-Dunno how much the rear speakers will get?

Single 10" Shallow Polk-audio MM 440w @ 4ohms (bridged)

And now looking for a used 3sixty.2 or Audiocontrol Matrix processor.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Why don't you piece it together and see how it sounds first. You can always add it later.

Ok, I was noisy using oem amp so had to bypass and lose 5 center.

Ironically, I'm running CTX6.5's in the rear, thanks to IHC.
Front, I'm running Massive Audio RK6's...
Front/rear running off hifonics zeus@85 x 4 rms
Subs, 12" audiobahn...2 of em in small sealed enclosure, 1500@1ohm RMS/2

I'm happy with it.
IMHO, doesn't matter what brand you get...I bought my deadener off ebay and it works just fine. You won't get rid of all noise, but you can definitely lessen the panels that DO vibrate. The middle seat upper seatbelt secure point is noisy as heck believe it or not as is the actual upper decklid (jammed 2 pieces of rubber between it and glass).

About wind...no chance...you'd have to replace your glass and rubber seals with welded metal to get rid of that for good.

geekybiker

I think it sounds pretty damn good. Once I played with the time alignment on the processor, I was pretty amazed and its a cheap setup. Other guys have alot more speaker than me, but the time alignment had the most "wow" factor of anything I did. If I did it to do over? I'd get the q4.150 instead of the q4.80 more headroom is better. I'm happy with the ID ctx65cs. I know there are better speakers out there, but it works well for the price. The sub- I would have done IB. 15" fi ib3 probably. My sub is fine, but can't really shake the car if you're in the mood. I only have 240w on it, and its only rated for 200w though.

As for sound deadener- I'd look into second skin damplifier. I hear lots of good stuff about it. I have a 20 sqft pack in my living room I'm waiting to put in. Check their forum for coupons before ordering.

geekybiker

Forget the rears. You'll end up turning them off as they smear the image. Run 150x2 for your front comps and bridge the other two for 450w to the sub. Or is that a self powered sub?

I hate cars

And that was a really nice thing you did, sending extra money on your own when I screwed up on the shipping cost, I really appreciate that.

I second the Second Skin. You get a quality product at a decent price. There is cheaper out there but from a quality and effectiveness vs price, it's hard to beat.

You basically have two things to buy. One is vibration damper which is the rubber and foil that stops metal vibration. This does very little to block sound, it just stops vibrations. Second is an actual sound barrier. Second Skin's version is Luxury Liner and Luxury Liner Pro (a little thicker). This actually blocks noise from entering the car and is used on top of the vibration mat.

I also agree that you should get what you have up and running first. It's kind of like when we went from VHS to DVD (I'm old). You could tell the VHS was not perfect before even seeing a DVD but it wasn't so bad that it bothered me. Then I went to a 1080 TV and Blu-ray. Biggest mistake I made. To me, the regular DVD and 720 was perfect before seeing the Bluray and 1080. I did not know what I was missing and I was content. After getting used to high definition I can't watch regular TV.

With plain 2-ch stereo and no processor you can make it sound very good. With all of my setups before the Dyns, there was something about the sound that I was not happy with. With the Dyns I was 100% content just listening to the music with no processor. I consider everything up to buying the Dyn 342 set very worth it because there were things I knew I didn't like before that. I did want a little more eq and tuning capability because I like to play with stuff and I ended up getting a processor. Even though I was perfectly content before I can never go back to no processor. It's not that it sounded bad before, it sounded great! But having an actual sound stage in front of you and bass coming from the front, I can never go back to no processor. After adding the processor and several months of playing with it, I've decided to upgrade the mids I just bought which aren't exactly cheap. I should have stopped with modest sound deadening, a high end comp set up front run off of passives, and a couple of average amps.

Try it out and if you're happy, skip the processor. Just a year ago I used to make fun of people that spent this much time and money in car audio and I was content with what I had. Due to curiosity and my OCD I had to try the higher end stuff. Right now I'm going to have $1,200 (retail) in amps, $2,800 just in the front components, $400 for the subs (not bad actually) there's also the center channel, the MS8, and all of the little things that add up. You have to decide what your limit is and an easy way of doing that is to not try things like processors if you're already happy with the sound. I swear it sounds like I need to go to rehab after re-reading this.

vp55

iTrader: (6)

The sub is a Polk Audio MM 10" shallow sub in a sealed QLogic .65 box. The sub is rated at 350w rms and 700w max.

The 440w bridged to the sub is probably overkill.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I vote for SDS for their CLD tiles and MLV. great product, great guy to work with. I fully deadened my doors, fully covered them with MLV/CCF, & have the deadener tiles covering rear deck, on rear frame behind seats, a few places in trunk, etc. I only spent $170. It's a must for audio. If you search my past threads, I have a full breakdown/reciept of my purchase from them. It was plenty for my setup


Here's the comparisons...

VIBRATION DAMPENERS
SDS = CLD tiles
Second Skin = Damplifier Pro

NOISE BARRIERS
SDS = MLV
Second Skin = luxury liner pro

CLOSED CELL FOAM
SDS = CCF
Second Skin = overkill pro

geekybiker

SDS is much more than second skin per sqft though. I like their tile size better, but for the price difference I'll cut it myself.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Oh really? They used to be basically the same. Either way, these 2 companies are the top 2 in my book (& a lot of others)

Whoever said deadener is all the same..most definitely not lol

geekybiker

Well, betwen SDS, second skin, dynamat extreme, and Cascade (IIRC?) I think I pick mostly on who had the size box you need and the cheapest price. All make a good butyl CLD tile. Not that asphalt crap.

SpiderX1016

Hey. I like my Peel and Seal that I got from Lowes
That stuff won't be touching my doors though.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Peel and Seal is asphalt-based and IS NOT a deadener. It's a mass loader. WAAAY different.

Once it heats up...it'll start to run too!

SpiderX1016

And your talking from personal experience?

You can say what you want about it but there is no problem with it in the heat. No smell either.

geekybiker

Depends on where you are. There's a huge thread on it on DIYMA. The asphalt stuff will run if it gets hot enough. It also tends to lose adhesion after several years- worse in warmer climates. Plus its not nearly as effective per thickness, and usually has an odor.

Not personal experience, but peel and seal isn't a great idea if you live in the south. Might get away with it up north.

vp55

iTrader: (6)

What do you guys think of AudioTechnix compared to second skin?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Nope, never used that stuff and wouldn't after the extensive bad news and research done from SSA, Second Skin, Cascade, Raammat. There's tons of research out there on this stuff and it's been said from SSA and Second Skin owners on DIYMA the difference between mass loading and an actual vibration dampener.

geekybiker

Haven't heard anything about it. Looks like its really new. Says its Butyl, so long as its not a mix, it should be ok.

vp55

iTrader: (6)

So, I called two shops and both were confused as to why I got a 4channel amp and that this wasn't the right configuration and that I needed either a 5-channel amp, or needed an amp for the speakers and one for just the amp. Also, there labor prices are crazy, the cheapest I found was for $550!

Another shop I called told me that I should'nt have bought my stuff online and that they carry some similar brands for my setup and got a quote for $1600 including everything, this was however all there high-end Focal comps and sub.

I am really confused and discouraged. I might just sell my stuff as I don't really the ability to do it myself or know anybody who can install it for me at this time. If anyone is interested in my stuff please let me know.

Thanks for your help!

geekybiker

You're going to pay out the nose for labor. Could have told you that. I'm not sure what you told the shop you wanted to run. 4 channel will give you 2 channels for the front comps and one for the sub. (bridged).

Anyhow, don't give up just yet. Maybe there is someone local here or on DIYMA that might be willing to help you out. Or get the number of one of the techs and see if he's interested in some side work. I'd help you out, but I think we're a thousand miles away.

4drviper

I'm no expert like those guys up there ^^^ but, I've heard the difference of same system with zapco 6ch 650W amp and same speakers, just with/without the 3.sixty.



I would say it's the difference between a same 5000W system of

a home theater system vs real movie theater with acoustic walls(a small one)

unless you're sqeezing the $**T out of your bank account for a sound system (like I was,, about a year ago LOL)

GET ONE, and you can use it forever with any future upgrades