rich20730

I'm starting this thread so people can post anything and everything relating to tuning an active setup in the TL. Hopefully this can serve as a reference, or at least a starting point for others who are in the process of tuning an active setup or are planning to run one in the future.

Feel free to post questions, tips/tutorials, issues/problems, solutions etc.

Helpful information to include would be:

1. What equipment/processors are you using?
2. Whether you are using the stock speaker locations
3. Whether you are using any measurement equipment or software (RTA, Test tone/pink noise CD's etc.)
4. What is your process for tuning? i.e. set gains first, then crossovers, then time alignment, then EQ, rinse repeat...
5. What is your technique for doing each of the above? i.e. oscilloscope, tape measure, RTA, by ear...
6. What are your current settings?
7. Measurements, results, pictures

I'll start: (I'm new to tuning so I'm learning as I go and will revise this as needed)

1. Equipment: Zapco DC Reference amps. 2-way active + rears and subs Component speakers in front stock locations, mids in rear stock locations, subs infinite baffle

2. RTA software: Audiotools from Studio Six Digital for iPhone, iPad. Dayton EMM-6 measurement mic, ART USB Dual preamp

3. Process: Set tweeter high-pass --> check speaker polarity --> gains --> crossover points, slopes --> time alignment --> left/right EQ individual speakers --> level match --> EQ final response curve --> take notes, save settings, start over with crossover points and slopes.

4. Technique for each:

1. Set tweeter high pass: First thing I do so I don't accidentally blow my tweeters. Rule of thumb is twice the Fs if using a 12dB crossover slope. My tweeters have an Fs of 900hz so a high pass above 1800hz should be safe. If you are using a shallower slope (6dB/octave) it would need to be higher. If you are using a steeper slope it you could go lower.
   
2. Check polarity of speaker connections: Typically, just check markings and connect + to + and - to - however, sometimes the connections are labeled incorrectly or not labeled at all.
   
3. Setting gains: My equipment has output voltage and clipping indicator lights so I don't have to use a fancy process to set gains. Set the head unit to 30-35, play dynamic music, then increase gains until the clipping light comes on then back off slightly. Start with the matrix, then SLDIN.T's then amps. I back off the gains if the noise floor becomes present.
   
4. Setting crossover points and slopes: This is kind of a crap shoot for me. I use a combination of speaker specs, actual in-car RTA measurements, beaming points, and information gathered from others. Currently using 24db slopes to minimize interaction with other speakers.
   
5. Setting time alignment: I no longer have the Alpine PXE auto-tune to do this for me so I'm currently using a tape measure and calculating relative delay times, but I'm exploring other options. There is an impulse response and delay finder feature on my iPhone app, but I haven't figured out how to use it yet. This also looks interesting: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...alignment.html
   
6. Left/Right EQ: I use the 10-band parametric EQ and RTA to EQ each speaker individually. I mute all of the other speakers except the one I'm EQ'ing and try to get the response as flat as possible. First I cut the big wide (low Q) peaks and then address the narrow peaks (high Q). I try to avoid boosting frequencies if possible.
   
7. Level matching: I individually attenuate the levels of the driver's-side speakers so the output matches the level of the passenger's-side speakers.
   
8. EQ final response curve: Apply EQ equally to both sides to fit my desired frequency response curve. Currently ~ +9db from 20hz to 60hz, gradual decrease from 60hz to 160hz, flat from 160hz to 2khz, shallow gradual decline from 2khz to 20khz.

7. Current settings:

Crossovers:

• Front mids: High pass - 70hz @24db, butterworth, Low pass - 3800 @24db, butterworth
• Tweeters: Driver's side - High pass - 4khz @ 24db, linkwitz, Passenger side - High pass - 4khz @24db, butterworth
• Subs: Low pass - 80hz @ 24db, butterworth, Subsonic - 15hz @18db
• Rears: (Mono) High pass - 70hz @24db, butterworth, Low pass - 2000 @24db, butterworth

Time alignment:

Distance measurements:
Driver tweeter: 44"
Driver mid: 44"
Passenger tweeter: 56"
Passenger mid: 58"
Subs: 48"
Rear passenger: 59"
Rear driver side: 53"

Delay settings:
Driver tweeter: 1.1ms, 14.9 inches
Driver mid: 1.2ms, 16.2 inches
Passenger tweeter: 0.2ms, 2.7 inches
Passenger mid: 0.0, 0 inches
Subs: 1.1ms, 14.9 inches
Rear passenger: 0.4ms, 5.4 inches
Rear driver side: 0.0, 0 inches

Pictures:

Settings:

Driver Mid:


Passenger Mid:


Driver Tweeter:


Passenger Tweeter:


Subs:


Driver's side rear:


Passenger's side rear:


RTA Measurements:

1/3 Octave RTA


1/24 Octave FFT

05_NBP_TL

iTrader: (1)

I think I will stay with my passive setup for now.

rich20730

Haha that's probably a good idea. Be careful though - All it took for me was someone pointing out that the music should sound like it's in front of you rather than from the driver's side speakers or from behind you. Before I knew it the rabbit hole had been opened

Here's a secret that can save you a lot of time and money: Turn the fader four clicks to the front and the balance three clicks to the right

Did you end up getting the XS-65's and the idmax? Are we going to see a build thread soon?

05_NBP_TL

iTrader: (1)

About the fade and balance...Done and done! thats where I had it set at with my factory speakers.

Yes I got the XS-65's and the IDmax 12. Im almost finished with this build (just tidying up the wiring). Picked up a used JL XD600/1 and the ID Q450.4 at a great price.

I am stuck at the moment wiring my passenger door speaker though. I have everything hooked up except the door speakers. I connected my speaker wires from my crossovers to the red/blue wires going into the door plug (the lower blue plug) and im not sure if this is the right two wires for the door speaker. I will mess it some more tomorrow hopefully.

but the tweeters are playing and the rears are for "fill" for now. gotta finish the front doors and I may contribute to someones thread, but as far as a build thread, im not going to make another as it would be "cookie cutterish". Gathered info from you, Jayvee, TrunkMonkey, IHC, Neibur, etc..

rich20730

Found a great post from Andy W. on DIYMA outlining his process:

1. Time alignment. This should be done without any low pass filters. Don't try to do this all by ear. If you have a mic and a PC, there are plenty of inexpensive programs that will allow you to make impulse response measurements. If you'll do this by making acoustic measurements, it's important to allow woofers and midbass drivers to output high frequencies because they make it much easier to locate the first peak in the impulse. This is a long and somewhat complicated explanation, so let's just say you're willing to take my word for it.

If you don't want to make acoustic measurements, then just use a tape measure. that's good enough. Digital processors usually run at 44.1k or 48k, and the minimum amount of delay that's possible is a single sample--if the processor runs at 48k, that means 1 sample is 1/48,000 of a second. If sound travels at 1132 ft per second, then one sample equals about .28". That's plenty of resolution, so don't freak out and go on some tirade about what a piece of shit the processor is. That would only make a difference at high frequencies, and we don't hear phase very well above 1k. Measure a straight line from the center of the speaker to the center of your forehead. Good enough.

2. Using an RTA, look at the useable frequency response and bandwidth of the separate speakers. If you're bianping or tri-amping, this is easy. If you're using passive crossovers, then look at each channel separately. Basically, you want to be sure that you're not asking speakers to do something they won't do because of loaction or installation. Never cross a tweeter lower than 2x its resonance if you'll apply anything close to its rated power. For 1" car tweeters, 3k is a pretty good rule of thumb. Set the crossovers in a region where both speakers to be filtered have good output. For example, if your midbass speaker starts rolling off at 120Hz and is -12dB at 60Hz, setting a crossover at 60Hz won't work, no matter how much you wish it would. High pass filters protect drivers and low pass filters provide the blend between the bands. Use steep filters in cars--24dB/octave is plenty. All of this 48dB/octave or greater BS is just a waste of processing power. I'm sure I'll get flamed for that, but I'm right.

3. Combine the speakers that make up one of the front mains--left or right. Leave the subwoofer off. Tune the frequency response of that according to your target. I've posted my target response on this forum at least a hundred times, so I'm not going to type it again. Once that's done, store the graph in your analyzer in a way that makes it easy to match when you do the other channel. Turn that channel off and turn the opposite channel on. Tune the other channel to match the frequency response precisely. Levels should match too.

3. If you have a center channel, tune it to match the left and right for the band of frequencies they have in common. I recommend a center channel that plays all the way out to 20k if you have some center steering algorithm. If you have a mono (L+R) center, turn it off and take the speaker out. Sell it to someone who has real center channel processing and put a potted plant in place of the speaker you removed. If you do this, be sure to set up a separate tuning for the passenger's seat so while you drive a passenger around, they can enjoy listening while you suffer.

4. Add the sub. Tune the low pass filter and the EQ for the sub according to your target response. Don't worry about the frequency you choose. Forget about overlap or "underlap" because that doesn't apply unless you're tuning for exactly flat response. Another long explanation that I'm not going to type now. Just make sure the combined target response is right.

5. Listen. If you hear something you don't like, don't tune by ear. Get out the mic and identify the problem. Determine if you have EQ that will fix it. If you don't, save what you've done so far, if you have presets. If you don't have presets write down the settings. Use the EQ to try to fix what you don't like. Once you've matched the channels, adjusting to fit the target curve should be done with the same adjustments on both channels. Don't continue tuning channels separately, because that will screw up the match between the channels. If you have peaks when you combine the channels, tune both channels to remove them. If you have dips, you can add a little energy with the EQ to both channels, but if the improvement doesn't match the amount of boost, don't try to fix it. That's a phase problem and can't be fixed in the frequency domain. You'll have to live with it, wait for a better processor or move the speakers.

That's the procedure I use. It's essential to have a separate EQ for left and right and helpful to have separate EQs for center and sub too. Rear isn't critical.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

You're using a 1800/12 on your tweeters? I didn't think/feel that was safe with these. They started to get a little harsh to my ears even down in the 2100/24 range. I've currently got them at 2250/12db. Might try it out that way and see what happens. I haven't messed with my car in a LONG time thanks to moving in to my new house and starting my HT addiction back up

rich20730

Nope. I was saying that 1800 @12dB slope is about the lowest you could go before you risk damaging them. Its unlikely to be the crossover point you use when you're done tuning, but it can be helpful to set it low initially and listen/RTA to determine what its useable range will be. I've got mine set at 3800 @24dB

rich20730

Edit: Actually have them set at 4000/24

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Guess that's what I get for not reading the entirety of your posts lol. My bad. I should have figured that's what you were talking about

Do you find you lose some width/stage presence with the tweeters taking over that high and the mids well into beaming frequencies?

rich20730

It's hard for me to answer that question because the concept of proper staging is still pretty nebulous to me. Since I've never had an opportunity to compare my car to one that is properly tuned, I really have no point of reference.

The thread you posted on liner notes was helpful though, and my results were pretty close to the descriptions for the Dire Straits and Fleetwood Mac songs. I'm also planning to order the Autosound 2000 CD on staging and imaging to get a better idea of how things are supposed to sound.

What I can say is that in most songs the vocals are centered and don't seem to move or drift when there is a change in tone or pitch. In some songs the vocalist will be in a different location, such as slightly to the left or right of center, but will remain in the same spot for the duration of the song. I can locate specific instruments at difference places along the dash and they also seem to stay in the same place for the duration of the song. Drums seem to have the most variability in regard to where the perceived sound is coming from. On some songs it's obvious that the drum beats are intentionally panning from one side to the other, but on other songs I'm not sure whether the entire drum set is supposed to sound like it's coming from the same narrow location or if it should be more spread out along the dash. As for stage width, all I can say is that some songs have information that sounds panned all the way to the left/right of the dashboard and some don't.

It's also difficult to tell how much difference raising my crossover points actually made because I've made so many other changes to my system recently, both equipment wise and tuning wise. I had my tweeters high passed at 3200/12 when I had the Alpine PXE, but I also had auto-tune setting the time alignment, L/R EQ, and levels which would all have a big influence on staging.

I raised my tweeter high pass to 4khz after reading this comment from Kirk Proffitt on DIYMA (I figure he probably knows what he's talking about)
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...iscussion.html

As for beaming, I understand the concept, but I don't fully understand the ultimate effect it is having on the sound in my particular situation. When I RTA'd my driver's side mid, I didn't notice any significant rolloff below 4khz. I suppose the potential issue could be that if the mid is too far into it's beaming range then frequency response and imaging would be more susceptible to changing from one listening position to the next?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I'm going to go out and try to calibrate with the tweeters at 4kHz/24db real quick before we head out for the day. I'll be able to tell if I like it and what's changed for the most part since I've had them at 2.5kHz/24 for awhile now.

eggyhustles

You guys could fix up so many issues if you went with full rangers instead of tweets

I hate cars

Yuk! Even what's his name, the owner of HAT and Andy W talk a out how widebanders are a compromise. To play low they have to give up detail and top end. You only get decent top end if they're on axis and it will still never compare to a good tweeter. After installing my new tweeters a month ago it has given a whole new appreciation of the importance of good tweeters and being able to play flat past 20khz. If only my f-ing PS8 would stop trying to blow my tweets and mids by randomly going all pass on every speaker.

I do think there could be some advantages to a 2" playing tweeter frequencies on axis. The beaming might help reduce reflections but I've never heard one that sounded good to me. They're like an all season tire, ok at everything but not as good as a summer tire in the dry and not as good as a snow tire in the snow. Just my opinion of course.

What are you using for tuning? I always mean to ask you and I always forget.

rich20730

I hadn't ever really considered running widebanders rather than tweeters. A 2-way comp setup just seemed like the way to go. Allows you to maintain the stock look and doesn't require any fabrication. From my measurements it doesn't seem like my mids are struggling to play up to my tweets, even off axis. I also have a decent amount of leeway to cross my tweeters lower if I need to.

I've considered buying some kicks and throwing a pair of midranges in there, but if I do, it would be purely based on theory and curiosity rather than due to any specific tuning limitations or problems I'm hearing. Since I've got the extra amplifier channels and three-way tuning capability, I've been tempted to pick up the used pair of kicks on DIYMA, but they are built to fit the Esotar 430's and that would only spell trouble.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

So I'm assuming the PS8 is having some early troubles? That's not good

I'd be paranoid with my speakers, let alone some Dyn's. You're a bravef man! lol. Hope it all gets sorted out soon. I just went out and changed my HPF to 4kHz/24db and it's okay I guess. I'll have to play with it quite a bit more obviously, but I still can't figure out some of the tricks with the MS-8.

-- What volume to have it on?
-- When you calibrate and can play pink noise through the system (the one IN the ms-8 unit after assigning each channel) to make sure you LEFT and RIGHT are correct...you can also play the sub, but it's a MUCH lower volume (at least it is for me). Should it be at the same DB as the fronts? (aka...using an spl meter and making sure they're all the same volume?)
-- Should the sub be not heard, barely heard/felt, normal speaking volume like the fronts? I've heard the fronts should be at "speaking volume" when calibrating, but what's a "db" for that so I can make sure I'm not too loud or too quiet when calibrating?
-- Should I be moving the "SUB" control up a little to mesh the sub & midbass better or is that just if you have/want gobs of midbass? I used to run it like 3/4 of the way up...but I realized I was probably running into quite a bit of distortion and fake/too much midbass. I've got it down at 0/neutral or maybe a notch or 2 above and it seems better. I assume this has to do with your tune and how it sets your midbass region too though.

Anything else I should know? lol. Hopefully I didn't jack the thread, but I figure this is kinda "tuning", but just geared towards the MS-8. If not, rich can PM a mod and take it down...I have no problem with that at all.

I hate cars

I bought those kicks. Can't get them to fit. That's $300 down the drain. I have my other pair that have been in use for a while that I might get rid of if I can mod the new ones to fit. They have a slightly larger mounting flange and no enclosure so they would probably fit a wider range of midranges.

I highly suggest going 3-way especially if you like it loud. The vocal range will stay very clear no matter what the midbass highpass or the volume.

eggyhustles

Doesn't the owner of hybrid run widebanders in his award winning g35?

Edit

Yes he does


I think that getting a single stout driver to cover a wide bandwidth solves a lot of issues.

I think OP's setup could sound so much better if that xs was used as a dedicated midbass and a widebander played the rest.

rich20730

Carry on

Ha. I should have guessed that. Let me know if you decide to get rid of the old ones. I'd like to try running some midranges, but not quite ready to drop $1,000 on them yet.