View Poll Results: Would you be interested in a TL hybrid
I would be interest in a hybrid as long as it didn't decrease HP and increased MPG
79
36.92%
I would be interested in a hybrid only if it increased HP I don't care about MPG
17
7.94%
I would be interested even if it decreased HP only slightly if it drastically increased MPG
67
31.31%
I could care less about hybrids
52
24.30%
I'd be more interested in a fuel cell vehicle
23
10.75%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 214. You may not vote on this poll
Would you be interested in a hybrid TL?
08-04-2006, 06:16 PM
#41
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by Hybrid
So, people are saying you shouldn't buy a hybrid because the "return on investment isn't there". So what's the return on investment of the following:
- A-spec kit
- non-stock wheels, bigger tires, etc.
- Navigation system.
You get some enjoyment out of it, and probably get a little bit of money back on the "investment" at trade-in time, right?
Guess what, the same applies to the hybrid "option". I still have yet to see a supposed economic analysis of hybrids that includes Resale Value in the equation. They all assume the hybrid will be worth exactly the same as the non-hybrid while it costs a few thousand $$ more to purchase. So far, resales are very good on hybrids. Nobody knows what the future holds, of course. You don't need to save nearly as much gas over the ownership period to make it worthwhile if you consider resale value. (Plus, there are assorted and significant rebates and other benefits in various states, like HOV lane driving, for a hybrid that help the equation). Also, the "they'll be worthless due to the impending battery change cost" (meaning nobody will want a used one) is turning out to be completely false.
Do the people that complain of the HUGE environmental problem of battery disposal even know that the Honda battery pack consists of 120 D-Cell batteries, essentially? It's not all that big - sort of like a largish lead-acid car battery, and about the same weight. Toyota uses a little more battery, I think. Even if the batteries aren't recycled, how does the impact compare to everything else in the car (seat foam, plastics, airbags, fluids.... if you argue that that stuff will be recycled...why won't the batteries?)
- A-spec kit
- non-stock wheels, bigger tires, etc.
- Navigation system.
You get some enjoyment out of it, and probably get a little bit of money back on the "investment" at trade-in time, right?
Guess what, the same applies to the hybrid "option". I still have yet to see a supposed economic analysis of hybrids that includes Resale Value in the equation. They all assume the hybrid will be worth exactly the same as the non-hybrid while it costs a few thousand $$ more to purchase. So far, resales are very good on hybrids. Nobody knows what the future holds, of course. You don't need to save nearly as much gas over the ownership period to make it worthwhile if you consider resale value. (Plus, there are assorted and significant rebates and other benefits in various states, like HOV lane driving, for a hybrid that help the equation). Also, the "they'll be worthless due to the impending battery change cost" (meaning nobody will want a used one) is turning out to be completely false.
Do the people that complain of the HUGE environmental problem of battery disposal even know that the Honda battery pack consists of 120 D-Cell batteries, essentially? It's not all that big - sort of like a largish lead-acid car battery, and about the same weight. Toyota uses a little more battery, I think. Even if the batteries aren't recycled, how does the impact compare to everything else in the car (seat foam, plastics, airbags, fluids.... if you argue that that stuff will be recycled...why won't the batteries?)
08-04-2006, 06:30 PM
#42
Racer
Originally Posted by CL6
And where do you think those 'significant rebates' come from, anyway? You think they are 'free' money or something?
I've always been a fan of the free markets determining the value of something, rather than the government influencing choices, and creating unintended consequences, through the use of tax benefits, rebates, etc. But they do it, and I'll take advantage of it if the deal makes sense. (Anybody here that has a morgage payment NOT itemize and deduct the interest on the mortage if the deduction is available to them and it puts money in their pocket? It's the government's way of encouraging home ownership. Not much different in concept from encouraging hybrid purchases. Whether it makes sense or not is a different matter. One could ask the question of where the money comes from to pay for the home mortgage interest deduction - it's other people's pockets, non-homeowners or people that have small or paid-off mortgages, essentially.)
08-04-2006, 08:13 PM
#43
My only car is a Bus
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You can't do any math then. Just buying a hybrid forces you to drive 75,000 to 100,000 miles to break even. Factoring in $2,000 to $4,000 TL depreciation, At least $2,800 in taxes (twice) and financing, the extra cost of a Camry hybrid... you probably blew 8 to 10 grand.
I'd love to know how that's 'paid off' in 2 years from gas savings alone. Can't happen. Impossilbe.
I'd love to know how that's 'paid off' in 2 years from gas savings alone. Can't happen. Impossilbe.
Originally Posted by KeithL
I didn't really loose much on the TL, it holds its resale exceptionally well. Tax was only on the difference, I get $2600 from Feds on Tax Credit. And DMV fee is like $18. My math says if I keep it 2 years I am ahead and that was if I get 30-32MPG, I am currently getting average 34-35MPG. And Gas has gone up more since I bought it and more statiosn now are spreading the gap for Premium, so in many stations here Premium is not 25-27 cents more than regular.
08-04-2006, 08:55 PM
#44
Racer
Originally Posted by CL6
I'd love to know how that's 'paid off' in 2 years from gas savings alone. Can't happen. Impossilbe.
Having read tons of reviews and supposed thorough analyses of buying a hybrid, lots of people seem to be pretty insecure about seeing other people buy hybrids. I know it's not "jealousy" over hybrids or anything, but there's more motivating the lectures than pure economics.
Why is the $3000 (or whatever) that people "waste" on a hybrid purchase, even if it does end up being lost, considered such a big deal, when people drop more than that on huge wheels, barbeques, "designer" clothes, furniture that's more expensive than necessary, etc.? I gain/lose more than that in the markets most days.
08-05-2006, 10:54 AM
#45
My only car is a Bus
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May I remind you that you wrote:
I loved my 06TL, but can't deal with $46 fill ups every 5-6 days. I can afford it, but refuse to waste my money on it.
It was not I who made the economic statement regarding your hybrid purchase.
Any way you slice it, you would have been vastly economically better off having kept your TL which is a nicer, more powerful vehicle than having traded it in on a hybrid. That is my point. The fact that you apparently fail to see it illustrates why you bought a hybrid to "save money."
I've never said I'm against hybrids or against buying hybrids. What I have said is that anybody who buys one to save money is plain wrong. There are mountains of evidence showing why. Buying one for political reasons is different.
Honda is not going to make a car for political purposes.
I loved my 06TL, but can't deal with $46 fill ups every 5-6 days. I can afford it, but refuse to waste my money on it.
It was not I who made the economic statement regarding your hybrid purchase.
Any way you slice it, you would have been vastly economically better off having kept your TL which is a nicer, more powerful vehicle than having traded it in on a hybrid. That is my point. The fact that you apparently fail to see it illustrates why you bought a hybrid to "save money."
I've never said I'm against hybrids or against buying hybrids. What I have said is that anybody who buys one to save money is plain wrong. There are mountains of evidence showing why. Buying one for political reasons is different.
Honda is not going to make a car for political purposes.
Originally Posted by [url="#"
Hybrid[/url]]I know you said "in gas savings alone", but what if you pay $3500 extra for the hybrid "option", and get, say $2500 extra trade-in in two years? That makes $1000 to make up in two years. Now take off the federal tax credit. The equation just turned positive. (Now factor in $4 gas, to see what might happen). Resale value is always a gamble. (So is guessing the future of gas prices). People seem to insist that choosing a hybrid somehow has to pay off economically. What other consumer products do we buy that pays off in this way? Does any car make economic sense over public transporation or a bicycle? Are people posting messages criticizing others for the economics of buying the Ronjon wheels I see advertised on this page? No...they congratulate them instead.
Having read tons of reviews and supposed thorough analyses of buying a hybrid, lots of people seem to be pretty insecure about seeing other people buy hybrids. I know it's not "jealousy" over hybrids or anything, but there's more motivating the lectures than pure economics.
Why is the $3000 (or whatever) that people "waste" on a hybrid purchase, even if it does end up being lost, considered such a big deal, when people drop more than that on huge wheels, barbeques, "designer" clothes, furniture that's more expensive than necessary, etc.? I gain/lose more than that in the markets most days.
Having read tons of reviews and supposed thorough analyses of buying a hybrid, lots of people seem to be pretty insecure about seeing other people buy hybrids. I know it's not "jealousy" over hybrids or anything, but there's more motivating the lectures than pure economics.
Why is the $3000 (or whatever) that people "waste" on a hybrid purchase, even if it does end up being lost, considered such a big deal, when people drop more than that on huge wheels, barbeques, "designer" clothes, furniture that's more expensive than necessary, etc.? I gain/lose more than that in the markets most days.
08-08-2006, 08:52 PM
#47
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by CL6
May I remind you that you wrote:
I loved my 06TL, but can't deal with $46 fill ups every 5-6 days. I can afford it, but refuse to waste my money on it.
It was not I who made the economic statement regarding your hybrid purchase.
Any way you slice it, you would have been vastly economically better off having kept your TL which is a nicer, more powerful vehicle than having traded it in on a hybrid. That is my point. The fact that you apparently fail to see it illustrates why you bought a hybrid to "save money."
I've never said I'm against hybrids or against buying hybrids. What I have said is that anybody who buys one to save money is plain wrong. There are mountains of evidence showing why. Buying one for political reasons is different.
Honda is not going to make a car for political purposes.
I loved my 06TL, but can't deal with $46 fill ups every 5-6 days. I can afford it, but refuse to waste my money on it.
It was not I who made the economic statement regarding your hybrid purchase.
Any way you slice it, you would have been vastly economically better off having kept your TL which is a nicer, more powerful vehicle than having traded it in on a hybrid. That is my point. The fact that you apparently fail to see it illustrates why you bought a hybrid to "save money."
I've never said I'm against hybrids or against buying hybrids. What I have said is that anybody who buys one to save money is plain wrong. There are mountains of evidence showing why. Buying one for political reasons is different.
Honda is not going to make a car for political purposes.
08-08-2006, 10:24 PM
#49
My only car is a Bus
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Facts may be found at:
www.fueleconomy.gov
To gas up a Camry V6 for a year: $1,800.00
To gas up a Camry Hybrid for a year: $1,152.00
Your savings: $648.00
Figured at $3 per gallon
Premium over Camry V6: $2,400
Additional costs not figured in: Financing, depreciation, insurance, maintaince
The tax credit is not 'free' money. It comes out of our pockets and it is not going to be around much longer.
Studies that have been done show 100,000 miles of ownership until the 'break even' point is reached.
You lost even more because your TL depreciated, you paid tax and license twice.
www.fueleconomy.gov
To gas up a Camry V6 for a year: $1,800.00
To gas up a Camry Hybrid for a year: $1,152.00
Your savings: $648.00
Figured at $3 per gallon
Premium over Camry V6: $2,400
Additional costs not figured in: Financing, depreciation, insurance, maintaince
The tax credit is not 'free' money. It comes out of our pockets and it is not going to be around much longer.
Studies that have been done show 100,000 miles of ownership until the 'break even' point is reached.
You lost even more because your TL depreciated, you paid tax and license twice.
Originally Posted by KeithL
I disagree, Premium is now roughly 26-27 cents a gallon higher than regular, I am now getting 34-35 MPG comparged to the 21MPG I got in the TL. I am factoring in the $2600 the government is giving me because in the end it is real dollars. I know some people seem outraged that others woudl trade in a luxury car for a hybrid, but go over and read the hybrid forums at www.greenhybrid.com, there are Audi, BMW, Acura, etc owners trading in, tiered of large gas bills for a little extra luxury and power. I drive 17k miles a year, based on 22 MPG for the TL and $3.26 for Premium vs. 34 MPG and $2.99 for regular that is $2527 vs. $1495 or $1032 in savings, plus $2600 from the feds and if I keep the car 2 years that is over $4600 in my pocket!
03-30-2007, 07:28 PM
#51
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
As gas prices look like they may hit an all time high by this summer, I wonder if Acura will reconsider making a third option for a more fuel efficient TL. I'm not sure how many readers here remember the gas lines in the 70's or the stunned American car manufacturers who couldn't figure out why the more fuel efficient foreign cars were gobbling up the market when their car sales were plummeting. There is a gas station several blocks from my place that is about 4 cents cheaper per gallon and I see all kinds of $30K plus cars waiting in line to buy gas there, they probably only save .60 cents on average when buying gas there and yet even though they can afford expensive cars - they wait 10 minutes to save 60 cents - so their time is worth roughly minimum wage (after taxes).
Again hybrid cars aren't guaranteed to save you money in any way, the option does get more attractive as fuel prices climb, battery technology improves, and the efficiency of the hybrid technology improves.
Again hybrid cars aren't guaranteed to save you money in any way, the option does get more attractive as fuel prices climb, battery technology improves, and the efficiency of the hybrid technology improves.
03-30-2007, 08:40 PM
#52
Instructor
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As a previous owner of an Accord Hybrid, I can say that the gas mileage is not all that good... It was rated at 29/37 in 2005, and the closest I ever got to the 29 city was when I was traveling down 95 to College Park, MD to attend night classes at U of M.... My normal city was about 25.. I traded it in on the TL and get 22-23 regularly in the city.... Much nicer car, not that much diff in mileage... I can safely say that the Accord Hybrid does not save you that much.... just my 
willie
willie
03-30-2007, 10:19 PM
#53
Ev an' Tec
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About 15 years ago, when most of the imports had 4 cyl engines, a lot of them had a Power-Economy switch for the Auto Trans, to let you select trade aggresive shifting for better fuel mileage. It would be great if, with all the electronics, you could press a button and the car could switch from using its smarts from producing 258 hp at 20mpg to getting 25mpg with only 200hp. But if it were that simple, they would have already done something like that, if only to get better EPA ratings. In fact, the Power-Econ button didn't seem to make that much difference on the old cars either.
I do think they are going to go to the cylinder shut-off technology (e.g. like the Accord Hybrid and Odyssey minivan already have) to get more economy when cruising. Similarly, they may go with 6- and 7-speed transmissions to reduce engine speed on the highway.
But much as I'd love a hybrid which doesn't sacrifice hp or handling, or cost a fortune, I don't think we can get something for nothing. (Although regenerative braking comes close to win-win!)
Then again, when gas hits $4/gal hp and handling will be a lower priority. And with all of the hybrids coming out (now the 2007 Altima too), the carmakers will have more chances to experiment before moving this technology to their performance cars.
Maybe one day the definition of a luxury car will be one which gets under 30 mpg. The luxury will be that the owner can afford the gas for it.
I do think they are going to go to the cylinder shut-off technology (e.g. like the Accord Hybrid and Odyssey minivan already have) to get more economy when cruising. Similarly, they may go with 6- and 7-speed transmissions to reduce engine speed on the highway.
But much as I'd love a hybrid which doesn't sacrifice hp or handling, or cost a fortune, I don't think we can get something for nothing. (Although regenerative braking comes close to win-win!)
Then again, when gas hits $4/gal hp and handling will be a lower priority. And with all of the hybrids coming out (now the 2007 Altima too), the carmakers will have more chances to experiment before moving this technology to their performance cars.
Maybe one day the definition of a luxury car will be one which gets under 30 mpg. The luxury will be that the owner can afford the gas for it.
03-30-2007, 10:29 PM
#54
Ev an' Tec
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Originally Posted by ocwill1
As a previous owner of an Accord Hybrid, I can say that the gas mileage is not all that good... It was rated at 29/37 in 2005, and the closest I ever got to the 29 city was when I was traveling down 95 to College Park, MD to attend night classes at U of M.... My normal city was about 25.. I traded it in on the TL and get 22-23 regularly in the city.... Much nicer car, not that much diff in mileage... I can safely say that the Accord Hybrid does not save you that much.... just my
willie
willie
Just wondering about other aspects of the Accord Hybrid...
Was the Hybrid's trunk much smaller than that of the TL? Both seem kind of small.
How was the handling, especially the steering at highway speeds?
Other quality fit-and-finish issues, incl A/C and heating?
03-31-2007, 01:45 AM
#55
8th Gear
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Forget Hybrid, what about Diesel...
Can anyone confirm that the TL will get diesel?
Mercedes and Honda will knock it out of the park with their Diesel technologies - I hope the TL picks it up too.
The new c-class will have a bluetec at 42 MPG and be in the price range of the TL - that's going to cause some problems. I really hope a TL Diesel shows up with ~40 mpg... That's the best short term answer in my opinion.
Mercedes and Honda will knock it out of the park with their Diesel technologies - I hope the TL picks it up too.
The new c-class will have a bluetec at 42 MPG and be in the price range of the TL - that's going to cause some problems. I really hope a TL Diesel shows up with ~40 mpg... That's the best short term answer in my opinion.
03-31-2007, 08:14 AM
#56
Instructor
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Originally Posted by evantec
Before getting my TL, I went thru some calculations on how much gasoline would have to cost and how much I'd need to drive for the Accord Hybrid to pay for the price-difference vs a regular Accord. But I'd counted on a bigger difference -- if it's only 2-3mpg, it's really a small savings. At 22mpg, and 12000miles a year, you're using approx 545 gallons a year. At 25mpg, you'd use 480 gallons. So it's a difference of 65 gallons. Even if gas went to $4/gal, you're only paying $260 for those extra 65 gallons.
Just wondering about other aspects of the Accord Hybrid...
Was the Hybrid's trunk much smaller than that of the TL? Both seem kind of small.
How was the handling, especially the steering at highway speeds?
Other quality fit-and-finish issues, incl A/C and heating?
Just wondering about other aspects of the Accord Hybrid...
Was the Hybrid's trunk much smaller than that of the TL? Both seem kind of small.
How was the handling, especially the steering at highway speeds?
Other quality fit-and-finish issues, incl A/C and heating?
Truck was alot smaller , it had the battery pack behind the rear seat... Handling was fine, I had put on the TL rear sway bar to that helped alot.. A?C and heating were fine, when stopped at a light, then engine cuts off.. A?C and heat went on as normal, no problems.. Fit and finish seemed fine, no rattles of any kind for the 1.5 years I had it... For me the gas mileage was good because I came out of a Dodge Ram with the Hemi getting 11 mpg, so 25 was great for my daily commute...
willie
04-14-2007, 02:15 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Gas is about $3.50 per gallon in my area - they say this summer it will probably hit $4 - I wish Acura was considering more fuel efficient vehicles. I guess we'll see if they improve the accord's fuel efficiency even though I would prefer at TL.
04-14-2007, 04:50 PM
#58
5th Gear
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Hybrid alterantive-engine as generator
Interesting direction in auto technology is the use of a gas/diesel/ethanol/biofuel engine to charge the batteries which power the car. The use of electric motors on all four wheels allows 4 wheel drive, traction control, regenerative braking, stability control and real power with little excess mechanical components. As battery technology advances, and some say batteries are at a sophisticated enough level now, a multifuel engine that works as an efficient generator only when needed to recharge the batteries seems the key to power/fuel efficiency and utility.
05-21-2007, 12:05 PM
#61
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
While Lithium Ion batteries needed to be replaced after about 7 years, the new Lithium Polymer batteries found in cell phones, toys etc last longer and hold a greater charge which could lead to better mileage. I would expect to see them in cars by the 2009 model.
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