Neuronbob,

I haven't lived in Europe, but I visited, and particularly was struck by the the way they drive there. Some of the things they do would get you a ticket here. In Italy, playing chicken on the highways is the norm, not the exception. Why do they need extensive education before you can drive a car in Germany? Because it is not as free a society as the US, that's why. What is so difficult about driving a car? In Germany you need to report to the police before you pack up and move to a different city. And that permission may be denied. You can't just back up a U-Haul and move.

 

You have to remember, though, Maxim, driving is a privilege, not a right. We may have a "freer" society, but that freedom doesn't mean abdication of one's senses on the road. I think the Germans have it about right (about the driving ), and we in this country need more formal training in handling a car prior to being allowed to drive alone. I, myself, would love to go to a Skip Barber school to learn how to REALLY handle my car in an emergency situation. This sort of education should be mandated so that fewer people will (in theory) be involved in accidents, whether they drive FWD, AWD, or RWD.

 

You sir are exactly the morons I am talking about on the road. Obviously someone who thinks they know how to drive and understand cars. BTW: a FWD does not nessacarily torque steer in a 60 degree corner it depends on great deal more factors then FWD or not.

 

Neuronbob and chadr are spot on. I lived in Germany and had a license there. By just postponing allowing one to have their license until 18 is a great step, maturity pays huge dividends. The training is also far more comprehensive than the "training" I got for 1/2 hour after school 2 days a week. Italy is a totally different story, but on the whole, driving is taken much more seriously in Europe. And yes, people in cell phones, racing or eating and putting on makeup while driving ARE morons. Street racers should take a perfromance driving course, they would learn responsibility!

 

I think after driving for a year (or shorter, but definitely not longer), you pretty much know your limitations and the limitations of the car. Any idiot who pushes the envelope is either risking his/her life or the lives of others, whether here or in Europe. I do not think Europeans are smarter than Americans, especially when it comes to realizing that there is a limit (think law of physics) as to any movable object, i.e. a car.

 

I agree with all of this, except that it takes longer than a year to know your own limitations as far as driving, unless you are driving a lot of miles during that year (and therefore gaining experience). There are things I haven't experienced yet in my 17 years of driving, such as spinning out on the freeway, that I'd like to know how to handle better. Thus, my pining over performance driving school.

You are totally right, anyone driving over about 6/10 on a public road is endangering innocents.

 

Maxim, I never said, nor would ever day Euros are smarter than Americans, but their driving training is far superior. Europeans do some great things, but they can be total BONE HEADS (read French) as well.

Rick

 

Sure, FWD does not torque-steer, does not under-steer does not have 65% of weight in the front. And this person called me a "moron". BTW you can talk on the phone or have sex while driving. It is fine. What you cannot do is lose control of the car or the road. If you drive aggressivly you need a RWD. It is more controlable and safer. To be hones I do not understand how a FWD car can be qualified as a sport sedan. Probably untill RWD comes on board. Remember when I30 was called a sport sedan by Infiniti. Now it is as an old-man's car. As to driving, it is obvious that different people have different abilities. Some need 10 years to learn how to drive, other become decent drivers in a year or two. Same when it comes to controling a car at higher speeds. Some cannot handle more that 100mph, others can comfortably drive 130-150mph.

 

Snow tires is the cure for any care that doesn't do well in snow. Buy the car you really want and put snow tires on during the winter season.

 

Some very good points made here. The 04 TL can be compared to many vehicles; it all depends on what your baseline is. For example: If you compare strictly based on price, you would compare the TL to the BMW 330i. If you compared based on size and what you are actually getting, you would compare the TL to the BMW 530i or even the 540i. It's all relative depending on where you start your comparison.

 

I did not say a FWD car doesn't torque steer I said it doesn't nessacarily torque steer in the situation you tried to describe. If you enter a corner at the proper apex and heel-toe your shift point to get proper balance, and if the car has a limited slip differential it will not torque steer. However if you are a heavy handed unskilled driver it might. 90+% of all cars understeer because it is what drivers can handle on the roads, RWD or FWD.

One of the best handling cars on the market right now is a FWD car (the new Mini). You are just another sheep following what the magazines describe and regurgatating information you don't even really understand.

The fact that you think it is alright to race on public roads, while talking on a cell phone proves that.

 

I think the consensus should be that Americans are no more uneducated or unskilled than other nations. I would go further and say that Americans are among the best drivers in the world.

 

I don't know about consensus on that since many other industrialized countries have far stricter education and licensing standards then the US but ok let's say they are no more uneducated or unskilled. Americans are far more distracted then other countries and drive more dangerous vehicles. No other country has the SUVs like the US and nearly every other country has laws and brutal penalties for cell phones, eating, etc while driving.

Since accidents involving SUVs in the US have the highest fatality rate by a huge margin, additional the number of accidents involving SUVs has skyrocketed in the same period. Because our gas is so cheap compared to other countries people think it is ok to drive a 6000+ lbs vehicle to run the kids to school or go to the grocery store. Then that person that has no training on handling a 6000+ lbs vehicle blows a tire, or has some issue the lack of training turns would could be an avoidable accident into a family being killed after the SUV runs over their car.

I am all for the US enacting new laws regarding driver education and instituting new license classes for vehicles with GVW over 4000 lbs. People can call me a socialist or whatever but I think people need to learn that driving isn't a right and that they need to be responsible to the other people on the road.

 

Alright. Alright. The US is the third or fourth largest country in the world, by area. It has more cars than the first three COMBINED. it is bigger than Western Europe. At one point the US had more cars than the rest of the world COMBINED. There are also more miles of road here. There are more models of cars. Per capita the accident rate is no worse than any other industrialized nation, and may, in fact be lower. Those other countries don't have SUVs because they can't afford them, don't have the same amount of paved road surface, or have a different lifestyle. Some of the tallest people in the world live here. They need a convenient mode of transportation, hence an SUV may serve a better purpose.

Most of Europe has narrow, winding roads. Canada is 2/3rds uninhabitable. China is up and coming and may just have too many people for them to have a credible road network. Whatever roads they have are taken up by rickshaws and bicycles. They will not modernize enough to challenge the US in 300 years. Certainly they don't have the money. Russia is not too far removed from Soviet communism. There is not enough money for food, let alone SUVs.

The US is fast-paced and progressive. Don't get me wrong. I hate SUVs and the use of cell phones while driving, but a lot of business is conducted over those same cell phones. The need for an efficient business climate also dictates the need for cheaper gasoline. Since this is a large country, more miles are driven: to work and leisure.

Basically all I am saying is that overall, having been to other countries, the driving here is civilzed and tame.

 

"BTW you can talk on the phone or have sex while driving. It is fine. What you cannot do is lose control of the car or the road."

Perhaps the most moronic statement I have ever heard. Safety depends on concentration, concentration depends on minimal distractions. Study after study show that most rear end accidents and lane wandering accidents happen because of distractions. It truly scares me that people with your mentality are on the road, I am just glad, in more than one way, that I do not live in NY and have to be on the road at the same time as you!

 

Sergey,.The only time fwd is going to be a handling impediment on the street is if you are driving like an idiot and are on the verge of losing control.

 

I owned my share of FWD cars. Last 2 were 1998 Maxima SE and 2002 Acura TL-S. I know how they behave on the street and at the track. Most powerfull FWD cars (Audi being the only exception) torque-steer. In the Maxima TS was much more pronounced than in the Acura. On a rainy road pressing the gas pedal in the Maxima, w/out paying attention to the process, could easily move you into the next lane. Acura was not that bad but when going around the curve it would understeer pretty heavily and I had to do something. In the auto car that something is slowing down in the RWD (most of them under-steer too) you add some gas (accelerate) and kind of over-steere (torque-steer) in into the corner. That's the main difference and you feel it every day. You fight a FWD car when going around a corner you enjoy an RWD car. As to talking on the phone and driving. Againg, people are not equal. Some can pay attention to 2 or more activities at the same time, some cannot. You need to know yourself. Your limits. Let's say you are in a meeting and an important issue is being discussed. Can you pay enough attention to what's going on to convince everyone that you solution to the problem is the best one and at the same time write specs for another unrelated project. If you can you sure can drive and talk on the phone. BTW car's are not equal too. What was difficult to do in TL-S (e.g. folow that riced-up Civic in a heavy traffic) is a fun in 540.

 

Unless you are a skilled driver I don't think it really makes a difference. I have seen many new German cars being driven by idiots who have such poor skills they should not even be allowed to drive.

 

in CA states it's illegal to have sex while driving. my g/f asked a c.h.p. when we went to an auto show in sacramento and he said that it was illegal and it's a huge fine plus community service(we were debating about it when i asked for some .... in the car).

 

Java - didn't follow your meaning of this post. My point was 99% of drivers are not skilled enough to handle the limits of the TL as a car much less a RWD car which requires even greater skill to handle.

Just didn't know what you were trying to convey.

 

Unfortunately I am still in Germany, but I can comment on their driving habits. "In general" their driving habits are better. Let me give you an few example I have observed.
I took a 4 1/2 hour trip to Austria this weekend & the driver never ate or drank anything while the car was in motion. While I was eating my morning strudel and h20 w/gas, my friend didn't eat anything while the car was in motion, even when we were driving slowly. If that was me driving I would have ate my strudel and water without even thinking twice, in addition I would be making all my over due phone calls. I asked my German friend about this, and he said you have to pay attention on the highway, otherwise you are going to be in BIG TROUBLE. I imagine if you get into a accident going 100mph plus, you are going pizza on the road.
Have you ever noticed no German cars have good cup holders? What I am trying to point out is they pay attention while their driving "in general". I see in the US, particularily on the East coast a lot of folks driving with one hand on the phone and the other on the wheel, the ladies putting on their make-up during the morning commute, etc. Just my observations....

It was a fun trip, my friend set the cruise control on his BMW at 180km/hr aka 110mph on the autobahn. I pondered quite a bit on how it would feel to be cruising in my TL on the authobahn.
Dammm I need my car to be delivered ASAP!!!!

 

When I lived there, I went through the drive through at a Burger King and I think I scared the hello out of the BK worker when I said "g. tag" through the microphone, I don't think many Germans use the drive through. Also, ever notice how on the autobahn, they actually know and obey the law that the left lane is a passing lane and slower traffic keeps right or moves out of the way? I NEVER saw the attitude "this is my lane and I will go as slow or fast in it as I want" on the autobahn, I exeprience that all too much on the streets of LA

 

I believe that the main logical mistake in the statement above is that the author believes that RWD handles better than FWD only at the limits of handling. In reality RWD is better than FWD in every day situation. It accelerates w/out torque-steer, goes around a corner w/out dangerous under-steer has better overall handling and breaking due to close to 50%-50% weight distribution. That’s what makes RWD cars friendlier, more natural and that why more expensive cars are RWD. And people who can buy RWD cars.

 

Well those statements are not actually correct.

No torque steer is correct but many FWD cars have little to no torque steer due to equal length drive shafts.

No understeer is just flat out false. Almost every car is tuned for understeer from the factory. A RWD may have less but 99% of them will still understeer and they also have the added fun of trailing throttle oversteer and snap throttle oversteer to make matters more fun.

Better overall handling due to 50/50 is another thing that is not nessacarily true. RWD cars may have near 50/50 but they also may not (Corvette for example does not). Also better handling is not even remotely true. The Lancer Evo is based on a FWD car and is AWD and spanks nearly every RWD car on the market. In addition the Mini cooper is considered one of the best handling cars in the world with FWD.

People drive RWD cars because that is what the "prestige" brands offer them. The fact is RWD does have an advantage at the limits of handling but in everyday situations, unless you are driving where you are endangering other people, FWD holds the advantage with more predictable handling (understeer is far easier to control than oversteer).

 

Yes, understeer is an intentionally engineered in as it is far safer than oversteer. Has everyone forgotten that the Honda Prelude was luaded because it handled nearly as well as a Porsche 944? The Mini can out slalom a 911 Turbo.

 

If the most expensive cars in the world had FWD, then you have an argument. The fact is ALL expensive cars are RWD or AWD and all real luxury cars are the same. Honda=effiency thus FWD. Nothing wrong with FWD. But owning both, FWD does not hold a candle to RWD.

If u can't tell the difference in driving the 2, your senses are shot.

 

Sicklex - I am not saying RWD doesn't have an advantage, it does at the limits. However, my point is that 99% of the people cannot drive a car well enough to take advantage of the handling benefits of RWD.

I have owned sports cars and agree that RWD has it's advantage but for most people on the street FWD is more practical and safer because it handles in a fashion that most people can adapt to during street use.

I still go back to laughing at people talking about a RWD car being so superior and driving a slush box.